i’m a little lost on why you feel Trish didn’t deserve an OTG? Compared to Chun? Yea I can see it. But right about now anything anyone got could be compared to chun who got nothing.
Though this game would make more sense if everyone had at least 1 OTG to begin with.
(C. Viper can still EX cancel? Yep. Theory Maya’s still gonna be 10-0 against everyone.)
Much thanks to both you, Karsticles, and Dahbomb, especially since that was much sooner than I was expecting. Between that and Redbeard’s post, I think I now know everything I’ve asked.
A bit of clarification, though. With regards to Viewtful Joe’s Slow Dodge* move, I was asking if it could only be canceled into supers/hypers since I was already aware it could (given he did that in the very first preview that showed it off). This was because I was under impression that since it was a special, it could only be canceled into hypers. However, I decided to get off my lazy ass for a bit and checked in the Viewtful Joe section and apparently you CAN cancel into specials as well given what Iso said/did. So that’s certainly more than I was expecting and perhaps something you might want to relay to Dahbomb.
Thanks again.
*I don’t know why I called it “Zoom Dodge” earlier when it’s Slow-mo Mode that has him being able to do in game. Probably because I abuse Zoom with Slow-mo viciously in Viewtful Joe. Regardless, I’m not sure if that’s the official name, but that’s what people who actually use Joe (well, unlike me) call it, so…
When your health is that low that everyone can TOD you with their usual combos, it’s important to be able to do the same to them I think. It’s a valid complaint IMO, more openings needed to kill = more chances to die.
(Wait, are we counting DHCs as “usual combos” here? Because if so, then that applies to a lot more people than just Zero–not that it wouldn’t apply anyway–and Zero has more (offensive) options than like half of the people in the “get TOD” ballpark.)
Perhaps, but given the health increase he got and how stupid the lightning loops were to begin with, it just comes off as seeming more than a bit entitled. Especially when working on your defense will help mitigate that Zero wasn’t the only person who lost TODs. Maybe if I other people still had (or end up having) them then I can understand the complaint, but right now it’s…yeah.
Besides, I’m sure he’ll get something completely stupid due to how inherently overpowered the ability to cancel specials into Level 3 busters seem. So, yeah. Zero got more than he needed, especially since even though that health increase was slight, he was one of only two people who actually got one–that other person was Arthur, who not only actually needed it, but only got 50k and probably still can’t rush down (or move) when/if he needs to, meaning that’s another great buff Zero got despite already being excellent.
So please be (more) grateful.
Not to say that you’re out and out whining, per se. It’s just that I was (and am) incredulous that people who have mentioned characters losing TODs were actually being serious when pretty much all the characters who had those and lost them are still looking rather good. It’s like people don’t want to work on mixing people or having to actually manage meter now that you won’t get it like candy anymore. I mean, Krishna forbid you actually have to take a risk on getting hit because you willing play a character with lower health than the norm.
It’s not like they even fundamentally changed how he played either like Iron Man, so, yeah, I’m just not seeing the validity of it even if I get your reasoning now.
Then again, it might just be me since I play Chris, so I’m used to not being able to instantly kill people (without DHCs or Level 3s) and not getting instantly killed (outside of X-Factor or dying inside whenever I fight Wolverine or Wesker).
That’s why the low health characters tend to have much better tools than the higher health characters though. Yeah, they can kill you in fewer guesses than you can kill them, but you’re also much better equipped to make those correct guesses.
That’s the way it ideally is in a balance situation. Vanilla is just brutally skewed in favor of “low health, big toolkit”
If you want to be able to blow someone up off a single hit, it shouldn’t be so easy to get that hit.
In theory… yes, in practice… no. That is the reason why you see more Weskers, Wolverines, She-hulks than Zero, C. vipers and Magnetos online and in tournaments.
Zero is way too hard to land a clean hit on to have anymore than 825k health. His tools to tear through teams is only going to evolve with more play of him in UMVC3 it’s pretty obvious. He just can’t be hit for a long period of time when placed with a good team/assists and it’ll be the same past November. If you’re going to pick Zero you just have to use all your walking hit box tools to your advantage so you dont get hit.
any zero player shouldn’t be complaining. Not only for the stuff listed but come on. It’s a megaman character. You’re not supposed to have great health and ideally you’re not supposed to get touched or else you’re getting raped in the health. You’re supposed to work for whatever you’re doing.
I guess that’s why nobody uses Phoenix cuz she has no health.
Plus Justin just won the tournament with Storm and she only has 850k health herself. It’s just J.Wong is proving that Storm is very tough to hit with solid assists due to having what is basically the best mobility in the game at this point it seems. She can turtle out XF and then suddenly rush in in an instant. If she’s getting buffs to her hit boxes and damage she will definitely be a force in UMVC3.
Would you wanna fight against a Zero that had 900 or 1 million health? Yeah…me neither (unless he was nerfed to shit).
That’s basically how they made X-23 because X-23 just doesn’t have the strength in hit boxes or zoning game (basically non existant zoning game without assists) compared to Zero.
Now that Zero has been bumped up to the exact same health that X-23 has this is pretty good to bring up. X-23 was designed to play in the way you bring up the way Zero should be played because unlike Zero…she can’t protect herself with a fucking R-Type worthy assortment of normals and projectiles. MFC’s allow her to make the pressure on her normals a bit stronger but outside of talon dive/attack shenanigans she just doesn’t have the hit boxes of the other scary top tiers.
X-23 works in a way where you pretty much want her on the screen with 3 levels and XF2 ready to go or 1 level but XF1 and assists ready to go to build 2 meters and kill off another character. X-23 just can’t protect herself well enough to tear through a team without having XF+dirt nap setups ready to kill somebody. If X-23 didn’t kill somebody in one combo she better reset them and kill them right after or she has to rely on super to safe DHC or XF activation to stay safe and generally stay in the game. Zero doesn’t have to worry about that because he’s a walking hit box of shit that you can pretty much never ever press buttons at unless he makes a super obvious mistake or you otherwise get lucky.
Zero doesn’t have to worry about dying during resets because that’s the whole point of the character. He’s protected by a myraid of invincible normals and projectiles specifically for the purpose of resets until you die. Up your fighting game skills and work on those resets. Shouldn’t be too hard with a character made of hit boxes. Vanilla has gotten people lazy about resets because of the TOD factor but now that’s gone you’ll have to play Zero more so the way he was intended to be played. It’s not like he’s Felicia and there’s actually spots here and there where you can hit him even during assist calls. Once Zero gets close there is no way u should be outpoking him unless you have armor or DP. He even stomps through XF guard cancels with all of those multi hit normals and buster cancel BS so that’s out of the question most of the time too.
(Well, ihateM.O.D.O.K. basically got at what I wanted to get in a more concise fashion. This figures.)
Speaking of M.O.D.O.K., this is completely unrelated to gameplay, but a thought just occurred to me while walking: Has there been any confirmation that his M.O.D.A.M. color still exists when in his Nextwave Graceland costume?
I’m not sure if there have been any additional pictures of the extra costumes yet; I don’t think they have been since we’re still getting front page featurettes for “mere” colors after all. It’s just I realized how utterly hilarious it would for him to be cross-dressing twice since, if it does exist, he’d be a man who’s dressing like a woman who’s dressing like a man.
I don’t think I’ve seen C. Viper at all online, true–maybe once or twice, tops. However, I’m certain I’ve seen more Zeros and Magnetos than I’ve seen She-Hulks and even Wolverines. Even ignoring a large part of the incentive to not use Zero online being less because he’s squishy and more because online lag messes his execution/combos more easily than other characters, him not being seeing that often in tournaments is also largely because it’s generally easy to kill people/not fuck up with Wesker, Wolverine and even She-Hulk (who I only recall like three “pro” people using regularly anyway) than Zero.
I still don’t see why the argument for “Zero deserves this or that” is almost always more due to the fact that he’s not as simple in execution (though his execution certainly isn’t difficult, at least when it comes to actually getting a hit that he can combo out of) and isn’t seen in tournaments as often as other top tier characters. Rather than, you know, him actually “deserving” buffs because he legitimately needs them, which he sure as hell doesn’t. Just because he and Viper aren’t/weren’t commonly seen in tournaments as other top tier characters and are/were used by fewer people sure as hell doesn’t mean they’re anything less than excellent.
(Also because, you know, XF3 Dark Phoenix exists, so why put forth actual effort?)
I forget. Were people clamoring for Sagat to get buffed or, at least, saying that he shouldn’t be nerfed even though he never won an American major in vanilla SF4 despite being at least one of the best characters in the game, if not the best? Isn’t that basically the same thing as not even being that prevalent a character in tournaments even if you always show up and do well enough for people to notice, but never actually win it (for whatever reason)?
It’s not like Zero doesn’t do well when he shows up. It’s just that odds are against him for winning merely due to only really Marn, who is good but tends to be reckless, using him. (I seriously can’t think of any other “pro” who uses Zero and I’m not even going to pretend to know all the reasons that is.)
Agree with you on phoenix, as for justin, yeah his storm is really good but he also has wolverine in his team… I know how it feels playing against low health-high mobilty-broken hitboxes characters but the risk of taking a random hit while using these characters (that lead to TODs) is so high, that most top players dont use them. Playing against Zero can be the most suffocating experience in mvc3 (I use him, i am aware of this, most people tell me this throgh hate mail or while playing casual matches) but playing as him can be down-right stressful at times mostly because he tend to be the soul of teams he is in, and losing to a random cr. medium of wesker is so rage-inducing, random and stupid that most top players dont want to take the risk of playing him.
I don’t see what Wolverine being on his team has to do with anything. Storm doesn’t get more health cuz Wolverine is on the team. Wolverine’s health doesn’t even matter that much any way since his health is still in the “easy to kill via DHC glitch of XF” range. You practically have to burn XF to kill Wolverine any ways due to him having a bunch of attacks that can only be punished via XF or 1 frame throws.
The thing you can pick almost any character and as long as a Wolverine player presses 4 buttons after they hit you, you feel like Zero or X-23 so it’s not really something just shared by Zero. Even if you’re a Wesker, Skrull or Ryu player, if Wolvie taps you and presses the 4 buttons you have Zero quality health. I definitely know what it’s like to just die to a basic combo into standard DHC because that’s what X-23 has to deal with all the time but I feel it’s just since X-23 is basically designed to use the game mechanics to crumble teams before that happens.
I mean I know a Zero player in my local area that I would say is clean better than Ryry or Marn but he just doesn’t play the game enough outside of local events (that I know of) to really show up with Zero at like some major or something. If you give him the right assists he can’t be touched for days unless you really screw up.
I mean don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining about Zero. I like what he’s getting and right now I do fine with him. I was one dropped combo away from taking out Noel Brown in tourney a month or so ago so I think I’m decently competent. But I also know that playing really good people that know how to zone, it’s not so cut and dry. High health / high damage characters that have zoning options or hitboxes that can contend with his can give zero trouble. That or… random akuma / tron / haggar calls into death lol. If Zero ends up having to do resets to get kills on everyone (which I do now on high health characters sometimes anyway)… why not just pick Wesker?
Maybe I just don’t get the random Zero hate though, it’s not like anyone is destroying tournaments with him. Wolverine does most of what Zero does for more damage and easier. Wesker also has a pretty similar game plan to zero. Both characters see more success in tournies than he does. I think the buffs will help get him on that level even more so. If the justification for Zero hate is that your character is meh (X23)… maybe she just needs more buffs, not bringing him down to her level :shake:
I totally understand the Zero hate. He’s stupid good.
reasoning, Zero is a walking Buzz Saw with little to no hit box while he is pressing his ambiguous two button cross up. This is but one of the reasons Zero tends to get hate… His Hate will only rise with his buffs in ultimate.
also the fact that it’s nigh impossible to counterhit Zero with that freaking cr.M which already has good range by itself. compared to wolverine, Zero has a high execution barrier to really get good damage with his combos, and easier mixup games. that’s the thing: characters like Viper, Dante, and Zero are less used competitively compared to easier characters with more or less the same rewards as a higher execution character for a fraction of the effort.
Zero IS retardedly good, and it shouldn’t be a surprise when people say they hate fighting him. what SHOULD be a surprise is why more people aren’t playing him, because compared to Viper and Dante, Zero is pretty much given free mixup/crossup tools and normals that have ridiculous priority AND give you forever to hit confirm into a full combo. hard knockdown on buster was just unnecessary. that’s just his toolset though. the execution barrier comes up (or should we say, is more prominent) when his combos are concerned.
this character is definitely getting scarier in Ultimate with all the new buffs he’s receiving. then again, Doom is also scarier with his new hard knockdown dive kick and you know I’m gonna be abusing the hell out of that. LOL.
As a zero player I dont understand why people say he’s a high execution character or that he has TODs
See, there’s the problem. You can’t have non-XF ToDs without execution.
because he has TODs when you have high level execution.