My feeling is that Dante, She Hulk and Ammy got screwed over really badly by their changes and you won’t be seeing them often in tourneys. Trish seems to be screwed quite badly too, although that will depend on whether she can do 1 action in the air for each of her moves or 1 action in the air for all of her moves. Both Wolverine and Phoenix are likely to be a lot less used too.
She Hulk maybe…Ammy…SUPER MAYBE. Dante? You really think you can actually name things that happened to Dante that will remove him from continuing to become even more powerful competitively? You sure you didn’t mean to say Jill? That’s borderline trolling putting Dante and “less used in tourneys” together. I’ve heard some things that people have said about MVC3 but…
The Trish crap is funny enough but that’s completely more valid of a complaint than arguing Dante’s tournament viability. Even as an assist Dante’s jam session assist is going to be such a go to assist for all of these new space control/lame out characters.
- Increased knockback for all moves. (nerf)
- Adjusted hit stun time and float heights for all moves. (probably big nerf)
- Decreased minimum damage scaling on normal and special attacks. (super big nerf)
- Decreased hitbox size of L and M. (big nerf)
- Lowered float of Clay Pigeon. (nerf, if Clay Pigeon refers to upward gunshots)
- Decreased cancel time during startup of Bold Move. (nerf)
- Commands that were performed through repetitve joystick motions can now be done with a single additional button press. (buff, but not that big of a buff)
- Increased invincibility frame startup on The Hammer, and decreased total invincibility frames. (the biggest nerf of them all)
- Decreased damage of Volcano-Beehive. (nerf)
- Slightly increased horizontal knockback from Beehive. (nerf)
- During Devil Trigger, Dante can now triple jump and double air dash. (buff)
- Additional hits can be added to Million Dollars through rapid buttons presses. (buff that almost everyone is getting)
So he gets a nerf list equlivent to Yang’s, and you still think he’s going to become even more powerful competitively?
BTW, don’t forget that Hawkeye’s super scatter shot assist is likely to be a better anti air option than jam session.
Dante’s nerfs are really not a big deal at all.
Yet he:
- Still does 700K+ off 1 meter.
- Still can TOD Character with right DHC or using Level 1 X-factor.
- Hammer still has start up invincibility and plus on block.
- Still has his double over head set up and **very **strong mix ups.
- Still a TELEPORTER
- Even with nerf hitbox, his normals still are better than the majority of the cast.
- Devil Trigger still grants him two of the best moves in the game plus health regeneration. ****
- Still has great assist.
- People were STILL figuring out new stuff with him at the end of Vanilla.
And you’re trying to say he’s no longer a tournament threat? WTF is wrong with people these days?
Hmmm… So Capcom 180’d most of their supposed nerfs to key characters that brought a lot of people a lot of annoyance.
Wesker is still going to be broken, Zero is still going to be a pain, the low tier’s have gotten what looks like negi-buffs… BUT HULK HAS MORE ARMOR!!!
Fuck the rest.
Edit: I can’t wait to see how Hulk’s :h: with it’s new armor, reacts to Zero’s in air buzzsaw move.
I think She-Hulk is going to do exceptionally poorly on Team EG, and be as good as ever on Team Combofiend. She just has way too fucking many wall bounces now, but that Spencer assist keeps her in the game with resets and hard tag combos. Emerald Cannon really needs to reset the wall bounce rule on hit for her now.
As for Dante, well, when I read the changelog I see: specials easier, combos harder but same potential still there, but now that 45 second combo only deals 600k max. They essentially didn’t take any of his combos away, they just made the timing for a lot of shit harder with the increased float and smaller cancel windows.
- Still does 700K+ off 1 meter. (not without a lot more effort, higher chances of dropped combos)
- Still can TOD Character with right DHC or using Level 1 X-factor. (which almost everyone can)
- Hammer still has start up invincibility and plus on block. (hammer is definitely a lot weaker and losing his most important tool is a big blow)
- Still has his double over head set up and **very **strong mix ups. (hitbox nerf will affect the strength of his mixups)
- Still a TELEPORTER (most one-dimensional, easy to deal with teleporter)
- Even with nerf hitbox, his normals still are better than the majority of the cast. (his normals don’t have the best recovery or startup)
- Devil Trigger still grants him two of the best moves in the game plus health regeneration. (can’t build meter in DT, limit to the amount of times you can use it, not as powerful as many of the powerup hypers)
- Still has great assist. (good assist, not great assist)
- People were STILL figuring out new stuff with him at the end of Vanilla. (and they will need to figure out how to make him viable now, which I can’t see)
It’s not that Dante is low tier crap, but I really do think that he’s mid tier now and the reasons to use him is a lot less compelling.
My feeling is that she’s finished, people do not seem to understand the reason why Combofiend/J Wong/Floe/etc love her. They vastly underestimate the derp, mindless and cheap nature of her mashable crouch L and her unfairly long and safe slide. Now that’s gone, plus a bunch of really stupid and unnecessary changes like how her Emerald Canno crosses up herself. Combofiend has already said that he’s dropping her, and I suspect you wouldn’t be seeing her very often in tourneys.
Ha… figures. I always choose the more technical characters to play in fighting games.
I’m hoping he comes out of nowhere with some great shit because when Marvel first came out, nobody thought Spencer or Dr. Doom would be good.
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Most of the cast still won’t do as much damage as Dante will after a long bold cancel combo…that’s pretty much a given. Wesker and Wolverine ain’t doing that much damage anymore especially with XF nerfs. The execution issue is not that big of a deal considering that the style cancel parts of the combos that people had the most trouble with now activate by mashing buttons (mash L for hammer now ROFL)…
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Nobody in the game will have a special move as good as hammer except Viper’s EX seismo and Dante’s DT specials . Now that charged z buster only causes soft knockdown this is basically the new 2nd best move in the game to Viper’s EX seismo. Except Viper’s EX seismo requires a meter to be spent while Dante’s hammer still doesn’t. Dante’s hammmer is basically a self Haggar assist with less invincibility frames and no reduction on your red life for doing it. Now you’ll just have to know something is coming first before you use it to stop any mix up. Vanilla Hammer would have broken so many times over in Ultimate it’s pretty funny to think about. The nerf to Haggar assist basically indirectly buffs hammer. Now hammer can stuff the start up of Haggar assist calls. Still will be plus 20 on block at lowest point, still will most likely have same short 5 frame window to whiff punish at lowest point, still will be safe to XF guard cancels from a low height, still will set up free air dash mix ups after a block (especially in DT double air dash ROFL).
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His aerial and crouching hit boxes are unchanged so I don’t see how this affects his mix up.
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The one dimension to his teleport is exactly why it’s good. Call Akuma or beam assist first, there’s almost nothing your opponent can do except guess and you’re at heavy frame advantage even if they block it the right way and get a free combo if they don’t. MVC3’s best, easiest mix up…still the best, easiest mix up. It’s still also an overhead, tracking, fast recovery teleport if you wanna do something as stupid as not call an assist first before using it.
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His normals don’t have the best recovery or start up but are still among the best in the game and bold cancelling them allows him to do things them that most other characters can’t. Like being able to constantly stay in the opponent’s face after advance guards without assists and being able to block a beam hyper even or any general attack even though he whiffed a normal (not OP, not at all). His normals have slow"er" start up and recovery so they are among the best in the game and not the best normals in 2d fighting game history.
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All of the best power ups in the game basically include the ones you can’t build meter in. Devil Trigger gives him access to the 2 absolute best special moves in the game…arguably better than any of Viper’s EX specials since they can be used indefinitely until the 10 seconds of DT runs out and can be used at a height that none of Viper’s special moves can do anything about. They will even shut down another jam session which Viper traditionally uses to deal with height based offense/zoning.
His Thunderbolt is basically the best beam special in any version of Marvel ever, shuts down every assist in the game, can be shot up to 6 times in the air via jump + flight, does massive chip, can’t use advance guard to push Dante away if you block it unlike every other projectile in the game, can combo into itself up to 3 or 4 times, triple jump buff allows him to be at completely super jump height, call beam assists that you can’t advance guard and still shoot thunderbolt up to 6 times for chip. Good thing Dante is already prepared for zoning in UMVC3 unlike a good 40 percent of the Vanilla cast on point.
His Vortex is basically HARD DRIVE THE SPECIAL MOVE. Triple jump + double air dash + this move = WTF is zone? Can also be done up to 3 times in the air. You know who needs Hard Drive the special move? Hsien Ko, Haggar and Chun Li. Not fugging Dante. LOL. The only thing not making this absurd is that you have to be in a mode that recharges your health and gives you 15 percent more damage the entire time you’re using it and recharges your red health in about 5 to 7 seconds if you raw tag or DHC Dante back into reserve as an assist. Why Hsien Ko’s armor doesn’t also allow her to do Hard Drive the special move is so beyond me it’s hilarious. Haggar would be completely better if he had an activation super that did nothing but allow him to do Hard Drive the special move for 10 seconds. Even if he couldn’t build a dime of meter during the whole 10 seconds.
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Jam session is one of the best secondary assists to go along with a primary tatsu/beam/lariat assist ever. Jam session covers a height level that most other assists and special moves in general don’t which is super jump height offensive/zoning. Some characters need Jam session to even touch characters like Trish or Storm. Jam session also has INVALUABLE uses in general for characters like Zero and X-23. This ALONE will make sure Dante is still viable and Ultimate and it’s just an ASSIST.
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The character with the most command normals and special moves in the game will have no problem having new technology found for him to keep up. If anything other characters will need to keep up with him.
i still think she-hulk will be good, capcom just pushed her more in the direction of what they initially intended…throw resets.
trish is improved overall and still VERY underused. screwed? no way. not even close. ppl jdk. i took her superjump options as meaning she can only do hopskotch, peakaboo, or round trip once each per sj, not one action per sj.
i haven’t lost confidence in phoenix at all…its still phoenix.
ammy…i think ppl are way overreacting over her changes. dog trails chars like wesker, dante, and sentinel in the sense that she can be put on lots of different teams.
wolverine will still be deadly. just with xf2 (and xf3), but not so much with xf1.
dante…c’mon. debating his effectiveness isn’t even worth discussing.
So, Deviljin, you think Wesker was just made less braindead? His buffs were to moves that weren’t terribly good in the first place, right?
And I sort of hate Trish because of my brother, but she might have potentially got a horrific and undeserved nerf (I’m guessing she can use each of those abilities once in the air).
Amaterasu is fine, especially with the Air stance switch.
Combine that with Glaive dive/rosary j. :h: plus Air Stance switching, I can imagine the shenanigans coming from that.
I wonder if Wolverine will still be playable. I mean looking at his change-log the only true nerfs were his invincible cross up which will still be pretty good with assists and the dive kicks which had to be nerfed anyway…so what else is really bad about him?
I’m glad with Wesker’s nerfs… They didn’t touch his health that much which, in my opinion, suits the character more than him being a glass cannon. I’m glad that they made Samurai Edge do less hitstun, that was really stupid. I still think he’s gonna be good though, he still got teleports, can still combo off his back airthrow, probably still has most of his otg gun into mixup shenanigans.
(I certainly not going to bemoan seeing less Dante, but I highly doubt it will happen unless like 8+ of the new character end up proving to be broken and/or give Dante a hell of a lot trouble.)
Lol, Devil Jin. Try not to give yourself a stroke between the stupidity in here AND on the front page. You’re going to burn yourself out.
Now that most changes have been (officially) revealed, I have to admit, as haphazard as most of them seem, outside of a lot of the lower-end characters not get anything of use (which I had steeled myself to a while ago, to the point where I was actually surprised Chun-li got any type of OTG, much less a meterless one) and where were ultimately buffs to at least four already high-end characters (Dorm, Doom, Zero and Dante); them not changing C. Viper at all also wasn’t surprising.
I have to admit I’m surprised all they gave Jill visibly were (slight?) nerfs since, even if she was already loads better than Shuma, you would think that they would privy enough to try to encourage people to buy her (and Shuma) since you’ll still have to buy them. I thought they would have thrown her at least one visible (if potentially meaningless) buff just to create “hype”, but no. Oh, Capcom…
I’m also more pleasantly surprised they seem to have nerfed the hell out of Trish’s stupid-ass keepaway game. Speaking of which…
Horrific? Possibly.
Undeserved? Hahahahaha.
You honestly think nerfing was unnecessary with her MvC2 Storm-esque keepaway when she can/could also rushdown better than some rushdown characters due to having the best, safest divekick in the game and absurd range on some of her normals? I’m not going to say I don’t have bias, especially since I play Chris who can’t touch her at all, but I’m going to have to call BS on that. The fact you basically either need to a)immediately prevent her from getting off the ground or b)need to have quick and/or invincible aerial move or c)have a teleport that can go over her above to even stand a chance provided she didn’t fuck up horribly kinda makes me think it was warranted.
As long as she’s not nerfed into uselessness it’s fine. I highly doubt she did get nerfed into uselessness, since she still got buffs on top of nerfs instead of getting all nerfs (like Wolverine) or outside of the air dash nerfs, most of the mechanic change benefit her (especially Air X-Factor). That’s a lot better than making her even lamer and more obnoxiously a wall by giving her only buffs like I thought they were going to.
deviljin01: how do you feel about playing x-23 now considering the dhc glitch is gone?
Dante has WAY too many tools to be anything other than high tier. Capcom wants this character to be good, just not dominating like vanilla.
People saying that Dante won’t be nearly as competitive in UMVC3?! And I thought the people whining about the Trish nerf were bad…
Yeah…I mained Wesker when the game came out so I already know WTF that guy is about. He was better in Vanilla period. He is still going to be completely better than Wolverine is going to be…but he’s not the S tier easy mode monster that makes everyone afraid of him in Vanilla. The game is evolving very slowly in general considering it took 2 months for people to figure out that Sentinel was ass compared to MVC2 and only beat people cuz people wanted to do anything other than block when he was on the screen. Vanilla XF3 Wesker was completely better than XF3 Sentinel but J.Wong of course had to complain about Sentinel…
His basic tools are mostly still there except for the ones that were the most punishing. No more gun port to combo is a big nerf. That allowed him to shut down air dash movement for free and go into full combos and Wesker would go back up to S tier on that alone in Ultimate if that was still in. If I heard the air dash nerf and then Wesker still had gun port combo…I would think about going back to Wesker. If you count his nerfs…
- Weakened XF3 (still will probably have one of the best XF3’s but anything is better than Vanilla XF3 Wesker)
- No more gun port to combo (big deal, doesn’t shut down air dash movement and get full combos off it anymore and still save an assist to use for relaunch)
- Rhino charge invincibility frame start up nerf (can now hit him out of the first few frames of start up, no longer an invincible frame 1 counter. That is also why late jump in attacks with extended hit boxes against the counter would whiff and he could be “punished” because the first 5 frames you can’t even HIT Wesker)
- Rhino charge damage scaling added (no more 600+k combos off a freaking counter super)
Outside of that…Maximum Wesker is still one of the worst supers in the game and extremely anti DHC synergy even with the mash damage buff. If a projectile or high priority hit box is on the screen he can’t use it without wasting a meter. It works when it works but it fucking blows when it doesn’t work basically. He won’t be the same character that almost never needed to use assists and still nearly be S tier BS. Those 4 nerfs above automatically keep him more honest. Will he still be one of the better characters of the game? Clearly. Is he still destined for clear S tier greatness? Not really seeing the only things that really made him S tier (abuse of Vanilla OP mechanics and overly high health pool) got nerfed.
The DHC glitch part isn’t even what I’m worried about because I use X-23 in a position where she can’t use DHC glitch unless I TAC into her or raw tag her in after the match is going. The things she can do outside of the DHC glitch are more powerful than the DHC glitch any way.
I feel mostly the same about playing her minus being worried about how the XF nerfs and meter nerfs will affect her gameplay. She won’t be able to touch normal health characters, activate XF1 to kill them and then dirt nap relaunch inescapable kill the 2nd anymore. She’ll definitely have to go for a combo reset first now.
I have her in second spot so hopefully XF2 X-23 is still strong enough to tear through a team when needed and if not I’m sure XF3 Doom will be even better now with all his buffs. Even without relying on dirt nap she has a lot of strong tools like the MFC’s that allow her to anti air into 600 k combos without jumping (by being able to rapid fire her s.H) and break through advance guards without assists. She has probably the most aerial options in the game for a character that doesn’t have an air dash and all 3 of her supers have a ton of invincibility allowing her to get in even during desperate situations which will be useful in Ultimate.
He’ll be playable but like barely. The game going is gearing towards making zoning stronger (not that rush won’t still be good) and Wolverine has just been stripped of all tools that will help him against zoning minus Akuma assist or a beam assist. X-23, Zero, Dante and many other characters capable of rushdown will be able to get in completely more easily than he can now that he can be stuffed out of berserker slash. You will have to call Akuma everytime in order to maybe get in with B Slash now.
None of Wolverine’s supers allowed him to blast through zone in Vanilla and with no buffs to his supers for getting through zone, he’s going to have it really rough in Ultimate I feel. Berserker Charge will be a requirement to get in past the zone and still without anything invincible he’s looking at rough times now. Still great once he gets in but completely ineffective at anything but point blank range now and is much harder to get in that range.
Basically, he’s going to be as hard to win with as people thought he would be in Vanilla before the game came out. XF3 plus berserker charge will most likely still be a threat so he may find some new use as the new Dark Wesker but his point game was drastically nerfed. Even then his offense won’t be as safe as Dark Wesker’s.