They really should rename “Demon Armageddon” to “U2 - ClxJames”
He will always be Ryu in Sf4 series, let the dick rider commence. Dickrideerrrrrs
from my experience with comboing st.hp xx teleport xx U2, i always had more success/consistency by doing the “teleport backwards from 1 player side” motion.
because it doesn’t matter which teleport you use since you’re cancelling it out right away anyways so i use my stronger execution side. most people seem to be stronger execution wise on this side as well.
Yea I’m too godlike for my own good, I know
Roflcoptor is far less crappy than I initially thought it was, but the fact that there’s a (very difficult, given what people are saying) combo into it that does 350 damage is FAR from convincing me that it’s better than WotRD… I mean, level two focus, fierce, tatsu, SRK does what… 330? cr. lp, cr. mp, tatsu, EX SRK probably does close to that and it’s braindead easy. With U1, you only have to make ONE right guess to do 510 damage. Bam. And U1 adds a massive dimension to Akuma’s game that U2 doesn’t EXCEPT for canceling out of teleport to punish anti-teleport option selects and fireballs… Against an expert Akuma player who’s great at guessing, which Daigo obviously is, if you have less than 50% life and Akuma has his U1 loaded, that means that it can be a big risk to do almost anything. Throwing, throw teching, sticking out even vaguely predictable pokes, focus attacks, uppercut type moves, and ANY jump that wasn’t made specifically to bait out a demon can ALL result in you losing the round in extremely demoralizing fashion. If Akuma has an EX meter, you can’t fireball either, so… what can you do that’s really safe? Not very much. This is something I realized not long after I started playing Akuma (a lot of people were calling Akuma’s Ultra nearly useless in the vanilla days… lol) and try my best to exploit to the fullest. Daigo certainly will.
I REALLY hope this is a troll and it’s barely worth responding to, but A. I haven’t really seen people dickriding Daigo that much… I think people are just really excited to see what the most decorated and arguably the greatest SF4 player in the world does with Akuma, a character who can be very exciting to watch. B. Daigo has never innovated? What? I’m sure he’s come up with lots of things. How the hell are you claiming to know that? Are you claiming to know who has come up with all of the tricks and set-ups and stuff in every fighting game Daigo has played? Kindevu looked at Daigo in disbelief after losing to him at EVO this year and Daigo explained something the commentators suspected was an unblockable that Kindevu didn’t know about. I’m sure Daigo just stole that from a Youtube video posted by a REAL innovator… C. Daigo innovates EVERY TIME HE PLAYS THE GAME. He’s a freaking genius. His playstyle itself is innovation, and it’s one of the crowning examples of beautiful, brilliant play that many people aspire to emulate, and for good reason. D. Not even going to respond about what Daigo has done to deserve the attention he gets.
Akuma doesn’t use spacing and mindgames? Aren’t mix-ups basically mindgames? Akuma has almost everything Ryu does except for Godly crouching forward (which was nerfed) and the ability to usefully combo into Ultra, so I don’t agree. If he were picking up El Fuetre, I would agree with you, but he’s not. Then again, I’m sure he could beast with El Fuerte if he really wanted to, even though El Fuerte is considered ass by many.
A. I am pretty certain Daigo will discover some new stuff with Akuma, but what the hell does it matter if he doesn’t? Akuma has a TON of stuff already and if Daigo uses it better than anyone else, which I’m sure he will or close to it, he will win A LOT. B. Daigo EPICALLY won the Topanga 5v5 earthquake relief tournament for his team after not having to play until the last match of the night. I stayed up until like 5 AM to finish watching it live. I highly suggest you check out the replay.
Poe fails to see that Ultra 1 is inferior to Ultra 2
Dont worry bro, you’ll get it eventually
Lol. Dont get me wrong, it definitely has some cool applications, especially against certain characters/playstyles and maybe I should mess around with it/look into it more, but yeah, from what I know at this point, I don’t think it’s use in combos seems very useful.
I think you’re both overrating U1 and underestimating U2 tbh. When a player as strong as Daigo (and we know there are) knows what gimmicks (normal canceling mainly) Raging Demon allows, and won’t be jumping at you like a xbox live moron, it’ll be hard to land.
Your post makes it look like it’s hell easy to catch everything with it man. I mean who’re you gonna catch throwing? Crouch teching? Err…
Tokido’s a beast with U1, but there’s only so much he can do because its applications are still limited, it’s a 5 frame grab from point blank, and the startup skyrockets during travel. It even fails to catch characters with great backdashes when canceling from a sweep to punish FAs, seen Tokido failing at it against twins, and that is demoralizing.
The damage also is not that good compared to the rest of the cast: sure it’s 50 % health, but under bait scenarios you can pretty much punish with everything in this game. I’d much rather combo into Ultra for 40 % damage, I’ll take that any time (and there’s characters who combo into it for more than that).
And don’t forget, other ultras/combos don’t give the opponent up to 70 % meter. I mean, 70 %, yeah. When they tuned down the damage from Vanilla to Super they clearly forgot about that. At times you cannot use it because it will screw your next round.
On a side note, for how much as I love Daigo’s play, I also wouldn’t rely on his guessing game these days, he just got destroyed for that in Evo. And if you’ve got to rely on guessing in this game your stuff is clearly not on point. But again, this is not something which regards the player, is not like we don’t see U1 landed every round because Akuma players are crappy with it or something. It’s just that it’s only good, not great.
Unrelated: you should never see/use cr.lp, cr.MP xx EX Shoryu, what is that lol.
It’s absolutely possible than I’m underrating U2, but I just don’t think I could be underrating so much that it’s better than U1. People in this thread suggested that the U2 combo with cr. mp is pretty difficult. From the VERY limited experience I have using U2 and from what I’ve read and seen, that makes sense. If it were reliable as a combo and super useful, wouldn’t there be somebody making noise by pwning with U2 combos? Maybe it’s easier than I think and I should learn it so I can hit confirm into it constantly, but I just don’t think it’s worth it considering how often you can use U1 to deal massive (although not vanilla massive - that was a little ridiculous) damage that, unless a FA is involved, is always unscaled.
I think that you underestimate how often someone like Daigo would be able to land a Demon against all but the very best turtles in the world (against whom I’m sure it’s very hard to land much of anything). The whole “it’s not like he’s going to jump in like an XBL idiot” thing is way overused IMO. There’s some truth to it in some instances, but that line of reasoning could be used to make just about any special move or Ultra in the entire game seem useless. For Makoto’s Karakusa, you could say “well it’s not like Daigo’s opponents are just going to stand next to his Makoto like an idiot.” Well, actually, they do end up standing next to Makoto, either because you HAVE to get relatively close to your opponent to deal any significant damage in Street Fighter 4 or because there’s a certain other person playing Makoto whose goal, which he is actively pursuing with a shitton of brain power and experience, is to freakin’ get close to his opponent. Daigo with 5% health isn’t just going to sit there and wait for his opponent to whiff a fierce uppercut from midscreen so that he can uppercut! He’s going to bait shit out, he’s going to use a frame trap, he’s going to trick his opponent into thinking something is safe when it isn’t… Unless you have a massive lead, at some point you actually have to attack Daigo with something other than a max range poke, and there’s only so much you can do that can’t be baited or anticipated or punished or SOMETHING by a player like Daigo.
The damage isn’t THAT great on Demon anymore, you’re right, but it’s still a LOT of damage against most of the cast. If there is a hit confirmable U2 combo that is reliable and deals as much damage as is claimed against an average character, then I’ll take it a lot more seriously, but considering even top players drop combos in high pressure situations, it just doesn’t seem worth it considering how much damage Akuma can do in so many other ways.
Re: guessing, because Poongko, a player who is world famous FOR GUESSING, fucked up Daigo in top 8 of a 1600 man tournament, Daigo’s guessing game is crap now? And That’s just not true about guessing being important. It’s not “relying on guessing,” but just about every move made in a Street Fighter game involves some risk and is therefore somewhat of a guess.
Lastly, the meter argument is… I don’t even know what. For starters, other than Yun’s genei jin, I can’t think of a single example where giving someone a couple of bars is that big of a deal. Much more importantly, if you have Ultra, there’s a good chance you’ve taken a lot of damage, and, being Akuma, cannot afford another combo, and unless you’re getting your ass kicked, you’ll probably win the round if you hit the demon (you’ll get a mix-up even if they aren’t KOed). So, let’s see… we can choose to not demon because they’ll get some meter, or we could focus on WINNING THE ROUND THAT IS BEING DECIDED. If it’s the first round and you demon and win it but lose the second mostly due to the super you just gave them, which shouldn’t happen very often, then guess what? You’re right back where you started, an even score. If it’s the second round and they won the first, well good lord you better not be worried about meter as you have to win to force a deciding round. And I don’t know about you, but a lot of times, my opponent’s meter is the last thing I’m worried about after I just landed a demon because I just won the game.
P.S. good call on the combo, although I didn’t write cr. lp, cr. mp, EX SRK. I had the tatsu in there, and I meant to have two crouching jabs.
What about Rufus? Rufus with EX bars is scary dude
You shouldn’t be comboing that from cr.MP in the first place, the window for that is ridicolously bad. st.HP is the way to go.
But where U2 shines is when OS’d. Certain characters (Ibuki, Cody, Boxer) have no answer to that, they’re forced to block.
I’m not underestimating someone who’s arguably the strongest on the planet (Evo 2k11 champion said that, and I believe him) and might be the strongest fighter in history, I’m just not nuthugging him because I know what comes (and what not) with U1. Daigo can’t change the game, it’s just that. The stuff you mentioned, you don’t do that with U1. Not unless you’re willing to bet a whole match because you’ll get arseraped when your opponent just jumps out of it because he wasn’t stupid enough to press buttons.
I’ll tell you what: overhead gr3g (<3 the guy) posted 5 hours of Tokido streaming. Watch it, I did, it’s great. Tell me how many Demons he tried and how many he landed.
If U2 was more easily confirmable rest assured it’d be the #1 ultra of choice aside from certain matchups (eg Abel). Even if the damage isn’t top notch it will still bump your combo up with 100-200 damage at the very least. That’s what Dudley or Rog’s ultras do, and they’re great.
The thing is that while those can easily be comboed into, you don’t connect Akuma’s U2 outside of a fierce, and when you land a fierce with Akuma you’re already in the 300-400 damage combo, which at times makes it not worth, considering you instantly lose the escape options it opens.
Poongko wasn’t guessing, that was his standard mixups between Shoryu and SPD - which is somehow become predictable, I dare say.
And no, you won’t take such risks (wanna count his Dragon Kicks against him @ Evo? Fuudo too questioned his play there), or you’ll end up destroyed.
Daigo ended up destroyed. Dizzy, perfect, crowd going nuts, Poongko raising the flag etc. He’s still the Umeshoryu Daigo, but I wouldn’t go around saying he’ll change the way we use U1 and show how things are done, no.
Just tell us something we don’t know man. It’s Cpt. Obvious material that you’re going to use the Ultra if it nets you the round. But there are istances where this doesn’t happen, and you can’t allow your opponent to get meter that easily.
You are very mistaken if you think this concern Supers only, that’s just with a few characters. But many others become scary when they have access to meter, because they can then threaten you with safe reversals or simply moves with better proprieties.
Meter management is a huge part of this game, you’d better pay more attention to that.
Totally missed the tatsu there, lol.
I know, I mentioned that. It’s a good use for it.
I don’t nuthug Tokido. I think he sucks at demoning and I think he rolled over like a bitch to Yun and Daigo when AE dropped. Also, I’ve seen him attempt to use U2. I remember one time where he dizzied someone, tried to U2, and it’s so slow with such a crappy hitbox that it didn’t land and he lost the round.I’ll tell you what: overhead gr3g (<3 the guy) posted 5 hours of Tokido streaming. Watch it, I did, it’s great. Tell me how many Demons he tried and how many he landed.
The above is a video of Tokido losing at EVO to an Akuma player who has serious balls, the kind of balls it takes to land U1 regularly.
So, we’ve jointly established that comboing into U2 isn’t that great.
…what? lol
Evidently, some people don’t know it. My guess is you play way too conservatively or have really slow reactions or something if you think it’s that difficult to land U1. I’m not trying to be douchey, but I am as certain as I can be that a great, aggressive player can land plenty of demons even against the highest level of players.
You can say I suck and I can only agree with that. But I won’t agree with Tokido sucking @ landing demons, that’s just lying because it’s convenient with your line of thought.
You really think a single video of Tokido losing in a mirror match to JR Rodriguez proves anything? I mean, that JR? You know what the guy’s famous for? You think that counts as " land plenty of demons even against the highest level of players"?
Oh wait I see, now JR is the master of the U1. Serious balls. Right.
Get real man, one of of those two is an elite level player, the other one can destroy people on xbl and win a mirror because of a gimmicky move which takes away 60 % health. Luckily enough Daigo is not dumb enough to pick Akuma for that.
No, it’s different. I said that it would be great if it could combo more easily, since landing a fierce already nets us damage. Yet still at this very moment it’s a very viable ultra in several matchups even not comboing it.
Daigo The Beast playing as Akuma! Akuma is Street Fighter’s beast. It’s Perfect!!!
I’m not trying to say you suck. Clearly, you know a lot about this game and you’ve made some good points. I just have a strong reaction to stuff like worrying about giving your opponent meter even though you’re doing 50% damage. Yes, sometimes it ends up mattering, but I feel like how much meter you’re giving your opponent is like the 15th most important thing to be thinking about in SF4, with the most important usually being winning the round that you’re playing. It reminds me of when I ran track in HS and a few guys on the team would obsess over whether a certain track was fast or slow, and my friend and I would be like “guys… how fast the track is is probably the least important factor of like 10-20 huge factors that will determine your time, such as: 1. how talented you are 2. how hard you push yourself 3. the quality of your strategy/pacing 4. if your body has an “on” or “off” day on the day of the race 5. your emotional state prior to the race…” etc. etc. That is basically how I feel about worrying about giving my opponent meter with demon, with exceptions like if you get a heavily scaled dizzy with a massive life lead or a Yun who’s really good with Genei-jin.
Landing demons against all levels of competition has always been one of the strongest parts of my game, and I might get flamed for this, but from the videos I’ve seen (which probably isn’t as many as a ton of people on this board), I think I’m better at landing demon than Tokido is. I mean, he just doesn’t go for it much. I haven’t seen him doing much with U2, although I have seen him pick it, and if he were that good at demoning, once again I don’t think he would pick U2 so much. And I don’t think that just because he doesn’t go for it much means that you shouldn’t use it more than he does. People, and I’m not saying you specifically, act like Tokido is the only good Akuma player in the world and that you must do everything he does and nothing that he doesn’t. I bought one of those lessons from Justin Wong back in like March 2009, and one of several extremely helpful things he told me was “You should be going for the Raging Demon at least twice per game.” High risk high reward is how Akuma rolls for the most part (other than ST Akuma, who is no risk high reward haha).
I know some people hate on JR Rodriguez for being “too wild”/gimmicky or whatever, but I think that like most hate directed toward top players, it’s mostly based on jealousy. I would say that JR is more known for things like 1. placing top 8 at EVO in Third Strike 2. Getting massive amounts of perfects in SoCal arcades and online 3. beating Tokido, who is considered the best Akuma in the world and one of the best and smartest Japanese fighting gamers ever with his own character in a game that isn’t even his focus 4. landing a shitton of demons.
Anyway, we have taken our debate way off topic… I don’t particularly want to continue, especially not here, as I feel like we’ve both conveyed our viewpoints pretty thoroughly.
I can honestly see him going with E.Ryu.
He knows Ryu more than any player in the world. E.Ryu has the Metsu Hadoken. Daigo with Ultra and 2EX is to be feared, Akuma doesn’t have this, Daigo is a Ryu player at heart, He plays his best with Ryu, Not Akuma. Ryu has Footsies, Zoning and U1. E.Ryu has that and more, but with less health. Couple that with his 2012 buffs and Akuma’s “Blergh” 2012 outcome, and it’s pretty clear.
Would of been Cool to see Akuma, But I honestly think E.Ryu will outperform Akuma this time round.
Ignoring the Akuma essays being written here…
I’d like to see someone playing Evil Ryu, but his health is just too awful. I don’t see any top players actually switching to him.
Not very interested in seeing him go over to Akuma. We’ve already seen several incredibly good Akumas.
Tokido is better than J.R any day of the week man, that one win means nothing. Have them do a FT10 or something and I guarantee Tokido will win convincingly
I agree with a few people here, Daigo going E.Ryu would be godlike, I’d love to see what he could do with the character as for the most part no-one has really done anything major with him, apart from Mr. Naps who is godlike.
I was actually thinking… How many characters in the game got better AA than E. Ryu?
I mean the guy has:
- A 5f (from v2012) invincibility Shoryu, which is not safejumpable
- EX Shoryu has 8 frames of invincibility which is still cool when you wanna make sure
- Ryu’s far HK (even better in v2012)
- Akuma’s awesome cr.HP
- Akuma’s far HP
It’s basically Akuma (stripped of U1, but he’s got access to a better option since he can do DP FADC Ultra) with DPs which do better stun and has far HK to cover even more jump in scenarios.
That aside, with all the 2012 boost I really don’t get why he’s not considering Evil Ryu.
You forgot his awesome u2 which is amazing for aaing characters with high/floaty jumps. I’m alting E.ryu right now and there are so many gimmicky ways to use u2 as aa, it has won me many matches for a free 500 damage aa. Just fireball, fadc forward if you can make a good read and know they will jump from fullscreen. Free unscaled u2 for you. The only catch is that for full animation you need the first shoryu to hit twice, which I do get most of the time.
Can’t wait to see him with his 2012 buffs. His combos are already pretty brutal if you have good execution, and any akuma mainer can pick him up with little effort because of the heavy similarities.