Oh of course, I forgot to mention that (maybe cuz I almost never see it used). The thing is, is that players, especially on the forums, often loose the sight of that line that separates theory fighting from practical fighting. I’m sorry, but do you often see it used? Maybe you do, but I almost never see it, dig up videos of Tokido vs Poongko on that Korea event, not a single time did Poongko actually did that to punish a TP. Why? Cuz, as I’ve said, no pro can always OS stuff (especially the right stuff) in his every single jump in.
In theory Akuma should zone better then Ryu, IRL - he doesn’t.
Go look at it again. I’ve seen the same video and my take on it was that Tokido actually played defense when he realized that Poongko was using a set up that would screw over teleports. So when Tokido did actually Teleport it was when Poongko was in no position to punish the teleport. If you put any lower level Akuma in that situation you would be watching Poongko destroy those teleports.
Akuma’s zoning is different from Ryu’s, but still effective. The thing is though Akuma generally uses his zoning as a way to open up the opponent instead of a way to keep them out.
I don’t know what video exactly did you saw, but I’ve seen him wake up teleport several times, and maximum that Poongko were able to do is punish with HP.
Don’t take me for an idiot, I’m not saying you can just brainlessly do TP every time you’re on the ground and do not think at all about defence, that’s retardet. But as metallicaband said, if you use it properly it helps IMMENSELY in the match, that’s what I meant, saying that Akuma has a free escape otpion. Ok, if you have a problem with the defenition I’ll say it differently - Akuma has a chance to have a free escape out of Seths mix-ups and can make the opponent think really hard about what kind of pressure to apply and what OS to use and when to use them, ending in them being hesitant to do stuff they normally don’t think twice about.
A teleport in that match cannot be overlooked and is one of the main reasons for Akuma wins in that match, as is in all other similar match-ups againts characters that rely on mixing up opponents when they’re knocked down such as Abel, Ibuki, dive-kick characters, etc. And the fact that most of them have a way or few to punish it doesn’t seem to help them that much lol.
And that Ryu example was just an example no need to try and make a whole conversation out of it lol, I think you’ve got the point that I’ve tried to make there.
Teleport is good vs everyone. It’s all in how you use it.
I like it a lot vs Seth because like others have said, a lot of the times, the most Seth will be able to punish with is standing fierce. I’ll take that over a bad guess resulting in a quarter of my health into reset into another mix up.
I am not taking you for an idiot, I am simply saying that Seth is one character where you have to be very careful how you teleport or else you will eat a ton of damage.
Not to mention if you eat a large combo you can’t teleport because s.HP does enough stun (200) that it can stun you.
Here is one of the Videos of Tokido vs Poongko
[media=youtube]qCiJhaTZRM0[/media]
2:03: First Pressure situation. Poongko uses a corner set up that if Tokido teleports Poongko will immediately use the wall dive and punish the teleport for a massive combo. Tokido tries to block
2:09: Same situation
2:18: Still in the corner. Tokido doesn’t teleport out, gets mixed up loses the round.
Hardly any teleports the whole game.
[media=youtube]wkZQpsaA8tk[/media]
1:02 First pressure situation. Poongko tries to punish the teleport, but guesses wrong. Tokido escapes.
1:15 Once again a corner set up that is designed to punish teleports. Tokido sees this and blocks.
1:28: Corner again.
2:02 Another set up where teleport wouldn’t have helped
6:37 A mid screen situation where Tokido teleports, Poognko screws up the s.HP punish and gets c.HP instead.
Just watching through this again you might notice that Tokdio blocks more than teleports through this whole set. This is because he is respecting Seth’s teleport punishes. In mid screen situations he used it more, but in the corner he blocked because he knew he couldn’t use it to get out.
Most of the time against a good Seth, if you are getting mixed up you are in the corner because Seth pushes you to it very fast. In the corner you can’t teleport against a good Seth.
Man, why I told you not to take me for an idiot is the exact same thing that you’re explaining there. To summarize your previous post, you basically said - Tokido was using his teleport option smartly.
And that is exactly what I’ve meant, look again:
Tokido obviously has a lot of expirience againts Seth (my guess, he ows this to XBL and the likes of Hiropon that play there), and made Poongko double guess himself, cuz after trying a few times to go for a set-up that screws TP he saw that Tokido didn’t do anything, and thus he began to pressure him like he was Ryu (a hidden sarcasm here), and that’s when tokido teleports and Poongko has nothing to punish him with except with a reaction HP, and even screws it a couple of times.
And yeah, as a few people already said here, I’ll take HP every time of the day instead of his damaging combo into another mixup.
So to conclude this discussion - it all started from my Daigo post, saying that he probably lost because he probably doesn’t have all that much expirience in a Seth match-up playing as Akuma. And won with Ryu partially due to luck, cuz it’s hard to believe that Ryu can deal with that match-up better then Akuma. If you think otherwise, then we just have different opinions, because I sure as hell can’t imagine Ryu being better in that match, mainly due to lack of such an escape option as a teleport.
And to be fair, you can’t teleport out of the corner againts many characters, not just Seth, take Abel for example, he can easily U1 you. But this is another partly-theory thing, good Abel players sure punished a lot of good Akuma players for teleporting out of their mix-ups in the corner, and just as well good Akuma players sure had many succesful teleports that got them out of the pressure of good Abel players stocked with U1. Because it’s street fighter, because it’s mind games, and somebody got outplayed.
You can’t say such stuff (especially so complicated as OS into U from various situations) as if it’s concrete and is like a rule or smthg. Even Daigo mashes a DP and get’s punished for that 3 times in a row like a scrub (evo 2011 yay!), who would’ve thought that that’s possible huh?
Saying it’s luck, when we’re talking about two of the best players on the planet, and without even looking at the vids, seems pretty stupid to me.
No one with half a brain should let you teleport out of corners. If they do, they’re bad.
Not punishing with the best possible punish is a totally different story.
Who could’ve thought Poongko would stop attacking 3 times? It’s mind game at elite level, not xbl scrubs. Don’t make such comparisons man.
Seth pushes you to the corner faster than most of the characters in the game. 90% when you are getting mixed up it is in the corner.
And I can say something as complex as a common Seth set up which I have seen Poongko use in person is a rule because guess what? That is the set up Poongko is using in those videos. It is a set up that forces Akuma to block.
Ryu due to luck? Maybe it is due to character experience?
And actually against Seth, I can believe Ryu is better than Akuma at least on defense because both characters have to block and Ryu can take a few more mix ups before getting stunned.
Ofc it is, that’s why I said ‘probably’. It was just my thoughts on the results and the response for some people that already started stating that Akuma is ass, and Daigo gotta run away now, cuz Akuma ain’t no good for him. Simple as that.
Ya know, I just couldn’t pass on this one.
[media=youtube]R9ohnM69JQ0[/media]
1:27 - Now who the fuck is that half-brainer? Fucking scrub just let out an Akuma player out of the corner, and playing as Yun! Omg he’s obviously soooo baaaad ):
I’m sorry but your statement is just hillarious xD
Yeah, ofc. Character expirence and luck as well. It plays a role wheter you like it or not, especially againts characters like Seth with his mix ups. It’s common knowledge and shouldn’t be pointed at, but I pointed it out this time because I think the result of 6-2 againts one of the best players, playing a really mix-up heavy character againt’s a character that doesn’t have a chance to score a free escape is bound to have luck to some noticebly degree. It’s just doesn’t seem to be normal. I would believe it being like 3-2 or smtg close like that. But 6-2? It’s not normal to have such a result againt’s a pro Seth player, playing as Ryu. At least I don’t think it is, and I don’t think people will start counter-picking Seth with Ryu, but if you look at this result, you’d think ‘why not?’.
P.S. man I do undertand I’m probably causing a lot of people to rage or at least doubt what I’m saying, because whenever someone says something like ‘Aaaah… That match Daigo won due to luck!’ everyone is gonna boo that man. But it’s not what I’m saying, I just think in this case, luck might actually played some role. Ofc he didn’t win because of it, but it sure must’ve helped him againts a bad match up (I bielive it’s in Seths favor, maybe something like 5.5-4.5).
Anyway I hope at least someone understood what I tried to say, I’ll stop now, no point in pushing it further.
I think the only hilarious thing here is ruling something out of the game entirely, which you’re doing. Nobody said it cannot happen. One wouldn’t really expect that, and that’s what happened there.
And you’re ignoring what happened before that - Tokido getting raped and getting desperate.
With all due respect, I quoted your statement fully, without ripping it out of the context, because it was without any context to begin with. You just got out and said it like that, and I quoted it just like it was said.
I don’t deny that tokido was getting bodied, but it’s not the point.
Everything can happen, and sometimes people go for a dp durning someones blockstring even though they generally don’t and it’s considered to be stuiped, But sometimes it’s actually smart, sometimes the opponent doesn’t expect it to happen.
It’s the same thing, everyone is aware of Akumas tp, and once they’ve got him in the corner, they try to fish for that tp attempt in order to punish it, but after a few carefull approaches, that resulted in the Akuma player not actually teleporting away, people drop the careful tactics and try to pressure you, and that’s when you tp. Or it may be the other way around, they got you in the corner and they know that you know that they are aware and will probably be ready with the punishment, but you know that they know that you won’t teleport and hence you do, and it may pay off. Like in all honesty who hasn’t done a teleprot in a situation were they shouldn’t? Everyone did. And ocasionally does even now.
So don’t say that no sane man will ever let you get out of the corner. Because sometimes - they do.
Anyway this is getting wierd and the argument is just begining to escalate to something not really smart and interesting. We should probably stop it.
Dude, you just explained why at times a backdash into corner work, or why you get away with mashing.
It’s impossible to always predict what you’re opponent will be doing, and sometimes you can get away even with the most stupid choice, exactly because it’s so stupid your oppont cannot think you’re going for it. Tokido bet exactly on that, or expected a divekick and hoped Daigo wasn’t OS’sing a Lunge. But that doesn’t make it a viable tactic (since it’s actually a bet), and hoping in your opponent sucking (meaning, not OS’ing) is not what you do to win tourneys.
oh look, daigo using ryu. Everyone ready to go back to vanilla style online?
I think there’s something lost in the translation here, and unless I’m missing another tweet, I don’t think it says Daigo switched back to ryu.
"Daigo switches from Gouki to Ryu after a convincing loss to Kazunoko Seth tonight. Does better with Ryu. Still soul character searching."
I think the “switches from Gouki to Ryu…Does better with Ryu…” only refers to those set of matches against Kazunoko’s Seth. Also, “still soul searching” indicates he hasn’t switched to Ryu, and at most he is now ambivalent about using Akuma because of how badly he got wrecked in that set.
Zhi’s referring to the set there, yes.
But if Daigo was determined to stay with Gouki, he probably wouldn’t have picked Ryu in all the following matches.
just recent eventhub posting him maining ryu now. after he realised that akuma is not good enough over ryu(matchup wise). ryu got overbuffed. few more hours till the imba c.mk strikes again!
Called it.
Won’t have to listen to the “Akuma is so good Daigo is using him” people anymore.
Wise decision by the beast, it’s also nice to know that the #1 demon out there will still be Tokido. Anyone knows if Daigo is attending SCR? Would be pretty damn hype to see his Ryu back in a major so soon!
Instead we’ll hear the “Akuma got way weakened, Daigo ended up dropping him” lol. I keed I keed of course… sort of.
Akuma was never good enough for Daigo’s style.
The things they weakened with Akuma wouldn’t even impact Daigo’s play since he is interested in the vortex. Akuma anti-zoning punishes simply isn’t good enough to play him as a primarily zoning character and hence would never become Daigo’s main.