Ultra street fighter 4 gen changes

[m0mo]

Since I like discussing stuff I thought I’d atleast answer mooken to make his wall of text less lonely.

big nerf -> One of his greatest tools in 2012 was the distance of his focus. This is a rough nerf, for people who liked this as an anti-projectile option.

Although this is big deal his focus was pretty damn good considering he has these footsies. He has other anti fireball options (though not as good) and two jump arcs which I think still makes most fireball matchups decent. Although I’m realy scared of guile now, fuck guile dude. We fuckin lost this.

• Heavy Gekiro now gives soft knockdown. The button timing on his followup is now the same as his EX version was in AE v2012.
  big nerf -> The timing is now mash? I suppose, but with its poor hitbox (upward instead of forward), it probably won’t see a lot of use. This is a huge loss for players who used heavy gekiro for knockdown setups.

• EX Gekiro is now -20 frames on block instead of -35. Now gives hard knockdown. Can no longer do followup if blocked. Timing on his followup has been changed to the same as his Heavy version was in AE v2012.
  big nerf -> Lack of followup is pretty big. EX Gekiro was one of the few great wakeup options, with a follow-up to change the timing of the fall, in case it was blocked. Gen’s hard knockdown option, aside from Crane cr.lk and Mantis cr.hk, is now EX Gekiro costing a bar.

These two are kinda tied in together. As I said they’re trying to make him more consistent instead of relying on the combo that only works on few characters for hard knocdown. Now you get it on everyone! For the cost of meter but hell you might actualy use it for something other than super. The timing change? Everyone seems confused but this is kinda obvious, they changed it so it would still take that tiny bit of skill to get the hard knockdown instead of herp derp mash. I guess they also wanted to leave atleast one gekiro mashable so that’s that. Also it is more punishable now instead of guessing (it still was kinda easy to punish) but yeah others have shittier dp’s and get punished harder so why shouldn’t gen be? Atleast they compensate it with a bit less of a recovery.

• Shitenketsu hitbox has been slightly increased forward. Now does 600 stun.
  -> I’m not familiar with U2, so open to comments.

As I explained before, more reason to pick u2 and ultra combo double. With double he now has a lot of options.

• Crouching heavy punch now sends opponents higher on counterhit.
  neutral -> Inconsequential buff, unless I’m missing something on using the extra height on counterhit.

I assume you can do crane super after counter hit more consistently now? And even possibly mantis super? Don’t quote me on this but that seems like a decent though situational tool in his footsies.

• Angled jump heavy punch hurtbox increased downwards.
  big nerf -> Ouch - I used jump HP as a way to get in against most projectile players, and would flat out beat any late anti-air attempt. This is a big nerf.

Heh what can i say about this. He has two jump arcs and a few Godlike jump ins. And they took community feedback. Ofcourse someone would complain about that after rise of Xian’s Gen.

• Angled jump heavy kick hurtbox increased downwards.
  big nerf -> Same as above - more trades against anti-air.

So yeah while i can excuse j. hp nerf fuck them for this. Oh well there’s nothing we can do but seriously did he realy need this? I realy didn’t think it was that great, yes two hits but still j. hp was a lot more solid. I guess it has too much uses as a focus breaker and an air to air but with red focus comming up was the nerf realy that nescessary?

• Light and Medium Jyasen are now ±0 frames on block instead of -3.
  small buff -> I think Medium rolling used to be punishable by SRKs on block. I guess this means this can be abused more often? I’ll say it’s a buff.

I like this, i use crane cr. mp xx jaysen as frametrap a lot so this makes me happy no more mash dp and that i can pressure with this. This is kind of overlooked but it does let him pressure a bit more which i find cool.

• Light, Medium, Heavy and EX Jasen now have 10 more damage on their last hit.
  neutral -> This was a pretty infrequently used move, the extra 10 damage won’t factor into majority of matches.

I smiled at this, as if it didnt’ have enough chip.

Welp these are my two cents, on most other points i agree. Also just to be sure hitbox is the one enemy hits you in and hurtbox is the one you hit with? Gosh i always confuse this.

[mooken]

Since I like discussing stuff I thought I’d atleast answer mooken to make his wall of text less lonely.

• Heavy Gekiro / - EX Gekiro

These two are kinda tied in together. As I said they’re trying to make him more consistent instead of relying on the combo that only works on few characters for hard knocdown. Now you get it on everyone! For the cost of meter but hell you might actualy use it for something other than super. The timing change? Everyone seems confused but this is kinda obvious, they changed it so it would still take that tiny bit of skill to get the hard knockdown instead of herp derp mash. I guess they also wanted to leave atleast one gekiro mashable so that’s that. Also it is more punishable now instead of guessing (it still was kinda easy to punish) but yeah others have shittier dp’s and get punished harder so why shouldn’t gen be? Atleast they compensate it with a bit less of a recovery.

• Light and Medium Jyasen are now ±0 frames on block instead of -3.
  small buff -> I think Medium rolling used to be punishable by SRKs on block. I guess this means this can be abused more often? I’ll say it’s a buff.

I like this, i use crane cr. mp xx jaysen as frametrap a lot so this makes me happy no more mash dp and that i can pressure with this. This is kind of overlooked but it does let him pressure a bit more which i find cool.

Welp these are my two cents, on most other points i agree. Also just to be sure hitbox is the one enemy hits you in and hurtbox is the one you hit with? Gosh i always confuse this.

Thanks for giving my textwall some company, and thanks for your feedback. It sounds like we’re more or less in alignment on opinions – I just don’t think Gen needed all the cumulative nerfs, and none of the buffs were gaping issues in the first place. They’re all a bunch of very odd changes, for the sake of changes – while providing an overall nerf (to a character that was probably fine where he was, in the tier list and all).

Hitbox = what you can hit with.
Hurtbox = what you can be hurt with.

[m0mo]

I’m also wondering now, because I’m pretty sure someone adressed this. Did they change the thing that when you change stance in the air and you land it doesn’t change instantly which is quite annoying and even nowadays I still sometimes get the crane move instead of mantis one I want.

[street11]

The build I played, did address this from what I could feel, with what other players mentioned (Press 3K during Mantis jump and you get Crane j.HK with Mantis jump arc. Vice versa with Crane jump with 3P press). I cannot 100% guarantee it though.

BTW, you can combo into HK Gekiro against everyone (Gen and Dee Jay are rly hard tho). You just cannot include TC in it.

[street11]

Okay, so I modified/added stuff to BlackToof’s mod. I didn’t include air stance change because idk how lol. BlackToof already had most of the changes.

http://www.datafilehost.com/d/ad8cb63a

I think I added most others except for having 950 stun.
I only added 1 juggle potential with Mantis Super. This means you can do air-to-air Crane j.HK -> land -> Mantis Super, but you cannot do air-to-air Crane j.HK>HK -> land -> Mantis Super.

[Layzzey]

WoHoo…Thank You Street!

You’re the man!!

[HNIC_Mike]

okay so the change log says his focus mantis hitbox will match the hurtbox. which isnt that bad if the images from 2 years ago on Ehubs are accurate

does this mean that the crane focus attack is unchanged?

also is the difference in pushback on hands noticeable? hands pushing back really far is great for matches like vs gief.

i think gen will still have some decent cross up stuff. just the really dirty stuff and the double dash safe jump stuff will be gone. im actually interested in Gen again with less reliance on all that stuff. really depends on that focus nerf tho.

[m0mo]

okay so the change log says his focus mantis hitbox will match the hurtbox. which isnt that bad if the images from 2 years ago on Ehubs are accurate

does this mean that the crane focus attack is unchanged?

also is the difference in pushback on hands noticeable? hands pushing back really far is great for matches like vs gief.

i think gen will still have some decent cross up stuff. just the really dirty stuff and the double dash safe jump stuff will be gone. im actually interested in Gen again with less reliance on all that stuff. really depends on that focus nerf tho.

Yay someone semi optimistic. Haha.

The images should be accurate because I don’t recall them changing anything about focus in previous iterations hitbox wise.

Going by the changelog it seems like the crane focus was unchaged i guess. But it does have lower range so i guess it could be fair if that’s true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP4yaWoxag4

Assuming by this video @ 3:38 it does look like they reduced it noticable ammount. It could impact the gief matchup as you said aswell as some more punishes being available which sucks and annoys me to be fair.

Agree on the last paragraph completely, less gimmicks, more footsies might actualy make him even harder to play.

[street11]

I made some observations, and the range he lost on his focus should be a bit less than the range he lost on his mantis st.mk between vanilla and super. Kara focus in Ultra would be approximately the same as non-kara in AE.

Crane focus attack is unchanged methinks.

Pushback changed is quite little. I think it pushed back less on block than on hit, but when it comes to that we cannot be sure until the game comes out.

Pushback on HP hands wasnt changed btw.

[HNIC_Mike]

oh ok. no change on HP hands. ive never used the other versions on purpose. they only come out if i fat finger the inputs

[m0mo]

After going through the changes in my head multiple times i came into realisation. Holy shit they just about nerfed everything an avarage person would complain yet barely buffed anything gen players actualy wanted.

Here let me give you an example. OMG HIS FOCUS IS SO STRONG NERF PLS, OMG HIS JUMP INS ARE TOO GOOD, EX GEKIRO IS UNPUNISHABLE. They basically adressed everything that people would bitch about in gen yet they barely adressed anything gen players actualy wanted or asked. Correct me if i’m wrong because i didn’t actualy offer any changes myself so maybe somoene actualy asked crane cr. hk to have less recovery or make super combo after j. hk.

[street11]

I think Roll buff is really good actually, along with a comboability from Crane cr.LP, because that normal is actually quite useful.

Crane cr.HK was probably something like players asking “omg it’s punishable on HIT make it safe plz” and Capcom said "ok that’s too strong but we took whole 5 frames off!!"
However, it has a total duration of 33f after the change, and Gen has never had a combination that could result in this frame count except for really difficult ones. Maybe he’ll have some interesting setups in the corner provided the opponent doesn’t do DWU.

Maybe you can do CH crane cr.HP -> Mantis Super with the higher blowback of the normal.

I’m not really positive, but I’m certainly interested in trying him out.

[m0mo]

Well yeah i don’'t argue those buffs are useful. But are they realy the first thing that comes to your mind when you want to buff gen? I dont know but besides the roll one I wouldn’t have suggested any of these. Ofcourse there is subjective look at it as some suggestions might make him “too strong” but they didn’t spare anything when they adressed the complaints.

[street11]

Oh no of course not. If I just consider fun of playing him I would suggest buffing normals that do not get used often (mostly Crane’s), and if I want him stronger I would suggest buffing Mantis st.LP hitbox or st.MP pushback.

Like I said I’m not rly positive about the changes. He’ll go down for sure, but I still think he’ll be tournament viable except you’d certainly need to make some counterpicks.

They are unfortunately the final changes and we’ll have to make the most of what we got.

[Trapy]

happy about the crane crLP and roll buffs, but mantis LVL2 FA was maybe his best offensive tool and i’m so mad they nerfed the shit out of it

[Reticently]

The mid-air stance change stayed in, right?

[ugo_2u]

So amiyu says that Gen is still OK. Well that’s a good sign. Hope he will be forgotten so we can wreak havoc due to lack of match up knowledge

[m0mo]

So amiyu says that Gen is still OK. Well that’s a good sign. Hope he will be forgotten so we can wreak havoc due to lack of match up knowledge

The dream lives on.

[Layzzey]

Yeah, It’s encouraging to hear and I wonder what made him think/say that. One thing it seems is that red focus lvl 1 hit confirms are really easy in Ultra. Probably benefits Gen in a lot of ways we are not aware yet, even though we lose meter.
Having 4 Kinds of Ultra choices with this could be dangerous during certain times of a match.

[mrtspence]

I’m reasonably new to Gen, so all of my conjecture is really just theory fighter (and possibly poor theory fighter at that), so take all I say with salt. I’m left with pretty mixed feelings about these changes.

I feel like he didn’t really receive many meaningful character buffs (I would have loved less pushback on st.Mp on hit, for example) aside from maybe having the hands whiff less on crouching opponents–if that is indeed how that hitbox change is to be interpreted.

The stun buff is clearly helpful in matchups where previously two incorrect guesses spelled the end of our round. I would also have like a more consistent anti-air or uppercut to help with that problem. I constantly find myself trading with cr.Fp, st.Fp, Crane cr.Hk, and any version of Gekiro. Not only that, but these options often flat-out lose to many characters’ jumpins, making our extremely fragile character have to just sit and take a lot of dumb jumpins until we get crane super. Perhaps that was a conscious design choice by Capcom though, as every other fragile character tends to have either a good escape or a strong reversal option.

The cr.Hp float buff seems strange. Perhaps it will let us land the super (as some have already said) or maybe its just to give us a little more time to position after a successful anti-air or trade.

I’m curious to see what happens with the roll buff and the crane jab buff. I doubt it will totally revolutionize Gen for the better, but there might be some strong chip setups where a Crane safejump into a jab string into a heavy roll could guarantee us a win or something. There may even be a more optimal combo from crane jumpins (if you predict the need to charge), but I’m not convinced.

I would really like confirmation on if that dumb air stance change glitch is gone or not. I’m sick of having to plink my crane air normals into a stance change and then have to time my ground normal in such a fickle manner. That might be a nice quality of life change for us lol.

The nerf to the mantis focus attack seems like Ultra may have been a net nerf for Gen as far as character changes are concerned. It really felt like my best tool in many matchups and I’m really sad to see it nerfed, although it will still be far from useless.

That being said, I think the system changes might serve as good buffs in and of themselves. Ultra Double could be really, really good on Gen and I’m curious to see how that plays out. I doubt Mantis Ultra II will be used, but having access to both the jump-in threat of Crane Ultra II AND the huge damage potential of Mantis Ultra I is appealing. With 4 bars and both ultras, our opponent has to worry about jumping (air to air Crane II and especially the Crane Super), doing anything grounded (Mantis Super into Mantis Ultra I), anti-airing our jumpins (Crane II), and making any mistakes in footsies (cr.Mpxxhandsxxsuper>ultra). At least on paper, we stand to gain a LOT by the inclusion of Ultra Double, especially if saving up 4 ex bars for super

Delayed wakeup and fixing the inability to reversal focus attack backdash might go a really long way towards helping my terrible inability to cope with Gen’s shitty wakeup options.

If red focus can be armour-broken, then that is an indirect buff to our footsie game as our hands might shut that option down in many poke scenarios where it might have worked against a character that has to commit harder to an armour breaker.

If any of you get through my wall of text, I’d love some feedback and opinions on that assessment. Even if I’m like 100% wrong, having someone who knows better tell me why will really help newer Gens like myself understand the theory behind the changes Ultra has on our character.