Minus Jill. She really sucks with no airdash. Storm is definitely a sleeper agent, and fair/foul wind is really going to take her there as far as what she needs to really turn it up a notch in Ultimate.
With Magneto airdash distance nerf, Ororo is on the comeup. Lets not forget a dumb option select j.C with weird hitbox that turns into hard knockdown throw > hail storm at close range!
If I REALLY cant find a team to make it work out of the new cast I’ll go back to Storm/Trish. Problem is my Storm team needs a beam assist and I dont care for any in the current roster.
Well I thought the original best way to nerf Phoenix would be just to tone down her level 3 XF since I still believe that is the main stem of the issue behind Dark Phoenix. Dark Phoenix in level 1 XF or no XF is clearly easier to deal with than level 3 XF. Unfortunately I hear level 3 XF is going to remain pretty much the same.
Which means they still want Phoenix to be this character that can completely rape another entire team by herself. Which turns your team into a team that the opponent must fight against completely differently than any other team. All or nothing (not entirely true since they’ll still have Dark Wesker sometimes LOL), glass cannon, all those terms.
At this point I would say the best way to immediately balance her is do something that directly affects Phoenix’s strength before the 5 bars when she’s sitting in reserve. If the end result with 5 meters is going to be the exact same BS it was in Vanilla something has to be done so it’s not as hard.
Like these are the 2 main ways you will lose (unless you get lucky or have SpiderMan style anti DP tech) if you are fighting a Phoenix team.
1. If you lose a character without killing Phoenix first.
*2. If you get team aerial comboed without killing Phoenix first. *
With the first one it’s often enough even with watching the grand finals at Evo that when you lose a character first and your team is not a Phoenix team…you are on your way to Loss City. Against a standard team as long as you have another good point character with assist backing you can amount the comeback you need to still win against 3 people if you don’t get blown up on the come in mix up. The problem with a Phoenix team is that if you lose a character they’ve most likely already built 2 plus meters by the time your character died. Then of course they get a free mix up on your second character while that second character can’t call assists for like 5 seconds (a terribly easy thing to take advantage of). If they land that hit into a combo on your incoming character you can pretty much forget winning the match unless they drop the combo. I don’t see anything about this scenario getting toned down in Ultimate. It’s IMO the number one strongest way Phoenix teams get around to killing you off and none of Phoenix’s nerfs affect this issue negatively.
The second one is pretty self explanatory. Point character on Phoenix team hits you and goes “well fuck I need 5 bars to win and I just lost some health so lemme go run this BS and see if I can get it”. They forward tag you guess wrong and they gain half a meter instantly with some extra from aerial hits and then tag combo down when without you countering in time and with everything at the end they built like 2 and a half fucking meters for playing RPS with you that’s skewed in their favor. If they already got hit before they are easily looking at already being at near 4 meters on that exchange. The only thing that I really see getting toned down with this is that the forward tag will make it harder for Phoenix team to build 5 meters since they will have to build their own meter if they land a forward exchange. Yet at the same time the forward tag steals meter from your team now so that’s less chances to snap her if the Phoenix team lands a forward tag on you. **This variation has become nerfed but also slightly buffed at the same time I guess. **
** With that I’d like to assume that Phoenix players generally won’t be affected enough by the nerfs to make a huge deal. The only thing that will really matter is what happens if Phoenix gets hit and snap backed before Phoenix has 5 bars and generally before the 2 above scenarios happen. ** Phoenix will be much easier to kill on the snap in because she can’t hurl down 3 H shots at you anymore if you screw up your mix up. This still revolves around you hitting the Phoenix team first and has very little to do with toning down what happens if the Phoenix team hits you first.
Balance phoenix:
-Remove wall bounce on M trap
-Make phoenix feathers a super activation
And then she can keep level 3 XF
But Capcom didnt do that. And what they dont realize is only SCRUB Phoenix spam fireballs. Phoenix is more than capable of constantly setting traps to keep them out and baiting them for a teleport/super punish.
(Yeah, Jill having no airdash kinda hurts, but I don’t think she “sucks” outright. She’s at least better than Shuma, who actually does need changes he’s not going to get.)
I agree with all of this. Which is why I know that none of it will actually happen (until maybe UMvC3: Turbo).
Hope for nothing: you won’t be disappointed that way.
I think a major problem with Phoenix is that X-Factor negates her health drain. If Dark Phoenix was actively losing health in her overpowered XFL3 state, it would go a long way in her being less of a threat.
I remember thinking about this a while back. It actually took me a few battles to realize that she actually does lose health without XF, and I don’t know why they don’t extend that to XF. It’s not like it’s particularly easy to run away from her every time it happens.
It doesn’t matter if she loses health or not, this whole concept of ‘the less health, the more potentially overpowered they are’ needs to stop. Normalize health, give everyone an inside, give them an OTG that can be reliably assist combo’d off of with the right assist, and don’t make a meter hungry character that becomes a game-winning key thanks to XF3 if the other player isn’t lucky enough to kill them off first.
That’s like Fighting Game 101. Capcom needs to go back to skool.
Capcom: Who needs education when you have money :yawn:?
But seriously though, The next time someone is talking to Seth or one of the MVCFree teams, pass this on.
While I don’t think health drain is a “fix” for DPhoenix (when she can kill you as fast as she does in Lv.3 XF, it kinda doesn’t matter), I think it would help better define normal Jean as the character rather than as the intermediate between building up bars and DP. Unfortunately, it seems like Normal’s the only one getting nerfed here.
And I too am annoyed by that health philosophy, especially in a game where health doesn’t seem to matter so much anyway unless it’s very high. That’s something that needs to be worked on. It may be MAHVEL, but it doesn’t have to be stupidly broken.
Yeah, I mean, most people seem to use low health characters in Marvel because it doesn’t freaking matter. If you get hit and your opponent is determined to kill that character, they will kill that character - no matter how high or low their health is. Only thing that could save you is an executional error on the part of your opponent.
Even if Dark Phoenix did still have her health drain while in X-Factor, it wouldn’t really mean anything. Yeah, it would seem more fair, but that’s thinking like Capcom. In practice, a hit would lead to a kill on Dark Phoenix even if you had no Hyper meter and she had full health.
2)To be fair about the feathers they act as projectile counters and help her catch combos easily.
3) If you take away the her damage increase then whats the point of having Dark Phoenix? Dante and Arthur both transfrom and get additional damage increase. Dante gets 15% and Arthur gets 30% increase. Though they both have timed transfromations, they have more health then Dark Phoenix and her health drains. Her enhanced specials are good but they aren’t perfect. Tk shot L and M shoot forward, which can be jumped over. Tk Shot H on the other hand chases you still but one seems to change direction and keep going while the other still follows. The Traps are larger and a bit faster but in order for them to work you still have to be in the cross fire for them to work. Though you probably could get away with a super jump and bait them and fire with out getting hurt.
But the thing with stalker flare is that it hits for 20 hits and stays until it gets 20 hits or Dorm gets hit, Phoenix and Dark Phoenix stay for a limited time and hits 5x with the homing Tk (10x with Dark Phoenix since the additional Tk Shot)
There’s a lot of ways to “cut and dry” balance Phoenix but with a character like Phoenix it’s really easy to tip the scale from “too good” to “too bad”. Capcom did what they did with Phoenix so not much to really do now but learn to work around it as people have been trying to do from the beginning. I personally would have preferred everything the same but just a shorter XF duration so there’s actually a reason to use non XF DP but…not gonna happen.
Whether good Phoenix’s spam H shots or not the strength of being able to put 3 H shots on the screen alone gave regular Phoenix 8-2 or better matchups against any character that didn’t have a homing/screen filling projectile or teleport. It was just way too apparent that there were too many characters (even those in the S tier) that had little to nothing they could reliably do even against standard Phoenix because of H shots. The biggest issue is of course whenever you snap a Phoenix in if you dont get the mix up you’re pretty fucked for landing another hit before she goes away since up to 3 H shots will raining on you. Now you’ll get more than one chance to mix her up like against the other cast. Now snap backs will become something she will have to get lucky against to survive instead of just something where the odds are still in her favor to escape unless you play specific character/assist combinations.
I wasn’t even really suggesting what they should do to balance her…I don’t even give a fuck about that anymore since Capcom feels like they know what they’re doing. I’m just saying within what they’ve given us there’s much more incentive to kill off Phoenix if you snap her in than before where she had a very viable chance of escaping even against the best mix ups.
The problem is that is purposeful. They wanted this ridiculous style for MvC3. Effectively, if your that bothered by this, it’s not their game is bad per say, you just don’t like MvC3. Maybe you like the characters, but not the game.
Ridiculous style can spread to everyone. For instance: Give Chris Redfield an air dash, a secondary rocket launcher air dash, the ability to combo off his throw without getting lucky, parabolic anti-air, faster grenades/guns, permanent land mines, a Grenade Launcher Hyper works on in-air opponents, and you’re more than free to drop his health to Zero levels.
Of course that’d be stupid overpowered, right? And everyone would complain, right? Catching my drift yet? Though, I’m sure you’ve got a valid reason for a majority of the higher health characters being lower tier. Go ahead, hit me with it.
Health just isn’t a very useful resource in this game. Having a lot of it doesn’t do you very much good since you can’t really leverage it to win games. It’s partly because the damage is really high and you get blown up from random hits anyway, and partly because you can’t just take some hits on your way in like you can in Street Fighter or whatever. That’s kind of the point of stuff like Hulk’s new move.
Why not just make all TK shots instantly disappear when Phoenix gets hit?
It makes no fucking sense why Dormammu’s Stalker Flare disappears if Dorm gets hit, yet Phoenix’s fireballs don’t disappear at all. It should be the complete opposite.
the thing with stalker flare is that it hits for 20 hits and stays until it gets 20 hits or Dorm gets hit, Phoenix and Dark Phoenix stay for a limited time and hits 5x with the homing Tk (10x with Dark Phoenix since the additional Tk Shot)
Yes, the damage is stupid. Yes, Tron and Chris can survive some rather silly combos. But the problem here isn’t the damage per say, it’s the mix up potential of the higher tier characters combined with the safe canceling tech or overall non-punishable normals they carry with them. Almost anyone can kill Zero with two bars, and a lot of people think that’s just silly, but if you sit down and play a round against a Zero who knows the mechanics, you’ll be finding yourself in a situation you really don’t want to be in again. His low health doesn’t mean shit compared to the cross up and mix up potential he has, let alone an assist like Tron covering any gaps you thought he had. Same goes for Dante, Magneto, Amy, Phoenix, and whoever else I missed that could potentially win a round all by themselves.