Ultimate mvc3 iron man

[DevilJin_01]

of course i realize that… doesnt make it any easier to swallow when our no longer playing the game. were i still playing consistently i doubt i’d care. you also come up with all kinds of new shit, the diff is that you at least get respect as a poster… i dont. its small beans i know and i know that i shouldnt care… but i do. c’est la vie

Yeah you can only do so much man. If you just think about what the information does to help players more so than who is crediting themselves…you’ll be better off. You definitely have a point, but it just doesn’t matter enough here.

yes, i know. but the fact that pretty much all 8 way airdashers have substandard normals when compared to non 8 way dashers… doesnt all of a suddenly make IM’s normals like they were on a non 8 way dasher…

the problem is that he has one of the WORST if not THE worst ADDF’s in the entire game. magneto doesnt need good ground normals cause he has imba addf j.L and ground L disruptor.

when you have those godlike moves, sword normals dont seem so busted.
i hope you get what im saying.

The range/speed on his normals is clearly the best of all the 8 way air dashers so that alone I hold him up in regard for. Even if we still need to figure out the conversions overall.

Now the thing I don’t really understand is why people are so fixated on the ADDF with Iron Man? Why can you suddenly not use his j.M anymore just because ADDF is gone (it’s not really gone, the duration has just been lengthened to operate at super jump height now)? His j.M has huuuge range for a jumping normal and you don’t need to ADDF just to utilize it. The only time I feel you need to ADDF with Iron Man is when you’re at super jump height. His dash covers enough range and his air normals also cover enough range where regular jump ADDF is not necessary IMO. Once I get with j.M range of an opponent as long as there’s no reason for me to super jump I’m not doing any ADDF’s.

Super jump forward ADD j.M or dash forward super jump forward ADD j.M covers a lot of range and gives you a nice high/low game pretty easily. The only difference is you’re not ADDFing. Which doesn’t matter since Iron Man can confirm from a strong range and get the same high/low pressure without having to ADDF. As long as you’re just inside the max range of the super jump ADD j.M you can hit confirm on most of the cast easily if they’re on the ground. He can create a ton of ambiguous floor touching j.M’s or whiff ADD into c.M for unreactable high/lows. You really don’t need to ADDF with this character to high/low people. The j.M just covers too much range with ADD for it to be necessary. Just super jump forward or dash forward then super jump forward and you’re covering a lot of range right there.

With super jump ADD you barely even have to get up off the ground to be able to come down with a low ass j.M or whiff and go low. Which can be done a significant range.

Ground L disruptor is still good but not the same beast it used to be in Vanilla. It’s more punishable when blocked at closer ranges than it was in Vanilla any way. Still has 5 point durability which isn’t bad but will get eaten up by any real projectile game from the opponent backed with assists.

I really find it surprising (actually wait…no not really) that this thread has come to the conclusion that he needs a normal jump ADDF. Especially when with the little time I’ve spent with him I’ve found that he functions great pressure wise without it.

Plus he gets the unique ability to ADDF all the way to the ground from SJ height.

i dont know how else to say it but: THE TRIANGLE JUMP BEFORE THE NORMAL IS WHAT MAKES THE NORMAL SO GOOD.
a very obvious example is vanilla ironman j.M which isnt even used anymore cause of the ADDF nerf. the frames,damage and range plus hitboxes on that move werent even touched afaik yet its not even used anymore. however if we were to play vanilla i can guarantee every IM would start using it again.

so, basically, what im saying is that you pointing out dooms “shitty normals” or lack of variety of good normals is a misnomer. he has a good triangle jump and that alone makes his normals better. he can tri jump c.L for a hyper fast low, or he can boxjump m for an unduckable overhead… thats pretty good if doom manages to get close.

I explained above why I think it’s absurd that people don’t use his j.M anymore. Capcom basically just said “we want you to figure out how to use this character without normal jump ADDF”. Which is pretty easy to do considering how his air normals have huge range and good start up and the speed of his dash. You should be using his j.M more than ever really since you are forced to ADD at regular jump height. That just goes into more of how people should get over the fact that he can’t ADDF because IMHO he has the air normals and fast enough air dash minimum and dash cancel minimum where you can make shift and still force strong high/lows.

I’m sorry but I can’t find anything about Doom’s GROUND normals (which I specified as opposed to his air normals which are really good obviously) that are better than Iron Man’s. Iron Man has the better ground normals period. Doom can mash on S launcher sometimes cuz it’s neg 1 on block but it pushes him far away from the opponent on block so not necessarily something you wanna go to with Doom. Other than that it’s either c.L or s.L on the ground with him. While both are solid none come with the overall strength of Iron Man’s ground normals.

Even if you go into the tri jump stuff…Doom can’t reliably tri dash high/low anybody but the bigger set of characters. Yeah sure you can tri dash low but the fact that you have to choose between a tri dash to go low or a box jump to overhead instead of getting both in the same motion kinda limits his mix up to choices of high or low rather than getting both in the ones swoop. Super jump ADDF helps that a bit but he can’t throw out his air M as quickly as Iron Man can or generally choose high or low off it as quickly as Iron Man can.

Doom definitely has the better cross up game but he just does not transition from high to low as ambiguously as Iron Man does. Especially not at close range where Iron Man can normal jump ADD with a 4 frame jump normal or go low with a 5 frame crouch normal.

i think your still seeing it through rose colored glasses. “everyone having cheap hitboxes” for instance isnt a particularly great argument cause its notnecessarily the hitboxes that even make moves cheap in this game… though that has alot to do with it. what those hitboxes allow you to do and how many followups they have is what makes them cheap. ease of followup is another thing that makes them cheap. its kinda like virtua fighter where every character can win cause every character has hard hitting combos that are available from multiple positions and hit multiple blocks… no what makes one virtua fighter better than another is largely based on how SAFE those combo starters are. the best characters have the SAFEST combo starters and some are even plus on block or can be used in ways that make it seem so. this has nothing to do with mvc3 except to see that even in homogenity like what is VF, there ARE factors that make some characters much better than others… mvc3 is no different. IM has good hitboxes but his followups from those hitboxes are very hard and spacing/height specific.

and while you MAY want to argue that that just means IM players haveto step up there games… it doesnt stop the fact that if any decent IM hits with a random air to air jumping H, hes not gong to be able to follow it up to a full combo anywhere near as much as other characters that hit with random air to airs. which means he loses da,age in the long run. once again its balance by numbers… and its very hard to get the balance wrong when one looks at it like that. the only real exceptions are obvious characters like arthur and sim that can exert so much control that they dont need to be doing max damage for every little hit. IM is right in that shitty middle spectrum where he doesnt control enough screen easily nor does he have the easy mode ground bounces nor does he have the best airdashes nor does he the busted vertical ranged ground normals that pretty much all run this game. THATS why his normals are shitty. you arent looking at the bigger picture like how IM’s moves interact with others nor how they do when thinking of things like “does he have a groundbounce” “does he have a stupid option select” “does he have an abuseable hitconfirm” “does he have a normal that pushes the enemy really far back on hit or block”

he doesnt have any of those. all he has is range that is easily eclipsed by many if not most characters or easily rn away from by those that cant outrange him…

i mean who does he outrange? felicia she has airdeltakick so she doesnt have to deal with his BS. wolverine? he has divekick, and converts off of akuma who eats ironmans shit easily since ironmans normals are projectiles and akuma eats those up. in the end IM doesnt really out range ANYONE. and thats the sad sad truth. even haggar can be a problem tough IM outranges pipe with his jumping h… pipe has nearly the same exact range and is ALWAYS a conversion into big damage.

Yeah it’s obvious he has no ground bounce, hard knockdown or whatever aerial normals but some of the best characters in the game don’t have those properties on their aerial normals outside of flying screen/launcher state also.

What you’re trying to bring up is the only thing I feel that is legitimate so far about Iron Man is that he has tough conversions from his normals. Well…I personally believe those conversions are only really tough from the air. From the ground it’s not really that much harder to convert than it is with Doom and I would argue still that he has a better mix up from the ground than Doom does. Which will most likely lead to bringing up how you can just take to the skies against Iron Man but then that means you just gotta set up Iron Man with the right assists so you can lock people down. Joker definitely finds a way to get people to the ground with his Iron Man so people should be working on that more. If you gotta put Sentinel on your team to do it…then put Sentinel on your team.

I feel repulsor blast/spread with assists easily gives him more than just range especially now that the repulsor spread gives hard knockdown and L repulsor blast can AA into combos. He can combo off aerial throws and grounded throws towards the corner on his own and the fact that his normals do reach that far period is a big deal IMO.

As far as dealing with other character’s stuff…repulsor blast/spread + assist I’m pretty sure is instantly going to be problems for dive kicking Felicia.

I don’t know how long you’ve been studying Iron Man to come up with the idea that his air/ground normals are considered projectiles according to the game. They are normals with the visual representation of projectiles but are effectively sword normals on an 8 way air dash character. Akuma assist will get shut down against Iron Man’s j.M or all of his j.H’s easily. They are basically swords that he can almost rapid fire on the screen.

his standing m is only good if your using assists for lockdown like how justin uses his assists during blockstrings. the problem with standing m is its followups:

1. c.m (wiffs against airborn opponents that standing m hit)
2. standing h ( no knockup cause c.m got omitted meaning not a very good confirm)
3. s or repulsor or unibeam (all unsafe, have little range, or are bad hitconfirms in general)

HOWEVER, standing m when used as assist+m then chained to standing h is pretty good as a way to get into flight and go for mixups… which is the primary way i use it and its damn good for that… just dont think of it as a confirm and it gets alot better.

That’s fine I guess since as I figured it didn’t seem like the s.M would be that good for much but pressure. Doom has the same problem of c.L whiffing on aerial people and pretty much has no other real ground normal other than s.L that’s strong for pressure and can hit confirm off of easily. This is why they buffed Doom from the air because he’s really not that scary from the ground unless he’s normal cancelling into dashes on you repeatedly to finally get in range for a solid mix up.

i apologize for that error in lnguage but what i meant was that his dash adds 11 frames of startup to whatever normal/special he wants to do.

that actually means someting cause alot of times you WILL want to dash for less than 11 frames of distance… yet you cant… and that sucks in the situations where you really need all of those frames to try and out startupspeed prioritize your opponent.

Doom’s dash adds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many frames to whatever normal he wants to do so I already know what that’s like. Oh it also puts him in a situation where he can get guess air thrown trying to do it easily without assist coverage. I’ll take my 11 frame cancel window so I can press a button or jump after about a 1/6th of a second rather than way longer than that.

If you want to pressure without having to dash forward first you have to do the same thing Doom does. Jump up and come back down (which he can do an effecient high/low from a longer range than Doom) or call assist and do the same thing.

[vian_siu]

Just got the hang of the Krispy Kream combo, I find the j.m after flight and the falling j.h after unfly the trickiest part other, than that it is a pretty straight forward combo. Never thought you can start the combo from half way across the screen, can’t believe I never thought of learning it before, so used to the new fly combo and the relaunch combo Joker does all the time.

I am also adjusting my team a bit by adding one of my most hated character in Akuma, but as they say, you got to fight fire with fire right? The Tatsu is great for everyone, so I have no problem with that and I find it really easy to convert with IM too which is great. It also cover IM’s weakness of unable of get opponent off him, and opens them up for a big combo.

even haggar can be a problem tough IM outranges pipe with his jumping h… pipe has nearly the same exact range and is ALWAYS a conversion into big damage.

Sadly, he is speaking the truth. If Hagger get close to IM especially with a good lock down assist like Akuma, it is over for IM. I have probably said this before, the main problem with IM’s normals is they lack vertical range and there is no derp conversion. In a game like UMVC3, you will need a move hits almost all round you (because almost every character can jump around and dive on top of you and attack really fast with assist behind them) or something that leads to simple conversion to survive and earn their respect, basically something so retarded, you can just throw out and nothing really bad can happen to you so you can actually get to play your game and IM have none of that. Most of his moves have great horizontal range, which is great for control distance in most games. But in this game, with assist and multiple projectiles on the screen, it is not enough, especially it is hard to make it lead to anything even if it hits. I think this game is all about how easy you can get a hit and how often you can convert that hit. Unfortunately for IM, he is bad at both (but thats why you have assists. Oh wait, your opponent has them too…).

that actually means someting cause alot of times you WILL want to dash for less than 11 frames of distance… yet you cant… and that sucks in the situations where you really need all of those frames to try and out startupspeed prioritize your opponent.

According to the guide the first 10 frames of IM’s air dash, he is stuck there because he hasn’t accelerate yet. So you won’t going anywhere other than nudge forward or backward a bit, if you cancel the dash as early as possible.

Anyway Dime speaks great sense, I have never thought of using s.m as well, he gave me some food for thought now.

[Dime]

sorry guys, i’d reply but ive got to go to no internet land for a few days as an emergency came up and that means i have no time to post a thought out response. ill post again when im back on saturday or sunday.

thanks for all the replies. i respect thought out arguments and theories.

-dime

[UntitledScrub]

@viansu

How are you confirming off of Akuma? Thought about running him awhile ago and kinda need advice.

also the best tool against the likes of haggar ect is repulsar blast… Call my spammy but my friend runs a VERY solid point haggar and I realized that I can’t challenge his pipe with an air throw or any of my air normals the hard way. But honestly GDLK move.

@dime
I’m with you if anything is wrong… Looking forward to you comming back.

[FuLLBLeeD]

I think the biggest thing IM players will have to learn is how to deal with the big dogs, aka your Weskers, Zeros, and Sentinels. Iron Man has trouble dealing with certain matchups as stated before, which is where the real concern is. Its not with having “bad”(they’re not bad) air normals or a “bad” airdash (people are still seriously going on about this?).

[shinquickman]

Dime, you seem to be convinced that all the character is complete garbage, so I don’t know why you continue to keep posting here.

That’s a pretty lame argument to make. You can’t just shun people off because they disagree with your view.

[vian_siu]

@viansu

How are you confirming off of Akuma? Thought about running him awhile ago and kinda need advice.

Dash and do jump loop (m, m, d/h, s) mid screen or just jump in the corner. Or Replusor Blast into combo. If you are already flying, just chase after him and do h, unfly, falling h into jump loop.

@viansu

also the best tool against the likes of haggar ect is repulsar blast… Call my spammy but my friend runs a VERY solid point haggar and I realized that I can’t challenge his pipe with an air throw or any of my air normals the hard way. But honestly GDLK move.

You can’t air throw Hagger, in fact you can’t even jump towards him because the pipe beats whatever you are trying to do, you will only get killed by the pipe. Replusor is too slow if he just normal jump and pipe up close, especially with assist. It is not going to work unless he is very obvious with his jump pattern or not calling assists. You should not even try to challenge Hagger with this move, you should just run and beam him to death.

MOST importantly why can’t you spell my name?

[KJunk]

Dash and do jump loop (m, m, d/h, s) mid screen or just jump in the corner. Or Replusor Blast into combo. If you are already flying, just chase after him and do h, unfly, falling h into jump loop.

Hey good stuff, I like it :tup:

[UntitledScrub]

You can repulsar blast haggar you just have to be a little physic also I never said you could air throw him…vian siu

[t1bz]

You can’t air throw Hagger, in fact you can’t even jump towards him because the pipe beats whatever you are trying to do, you will only get killed by the pipe. Replusor is too slow if he just normal jump and pipe up close, especially with assist. It is not going to work unless he is very obvious with his jump pattern or not calling assists. You should not even try to challenge Hagger with this move, you should just run and beam him to death.

MOST importantly why can’t you spell my name?

He’s probably referring to Haggars that super jump toward you and pipe on the way down, which is (in my experience) pretty much always what they choose to do when they’re fullscreen (and understandably so since they’re not going to get very far on the ground against rocket + unibeam spam). You have plenty of time to get out a repulsor blast L or M against this which will beat the pipe, and thanks to Spread causing hard knockdown you can be fullscreen again by the time they get up.

If Haggar is close enough to normal jump pipe you, no Repulsor will not work, but it’s not quite true that none of IM’s moves can challenge the pipe from this range. You can just do Proton Cannon and hit them with the cannon itself which comes out in 3 frames and covers basically the same area as Repulsor Blast. Granted it’s not something to rely on since it takes meter, is unsafe on block, and can get bopped if the initial cannon hit whiffs, but it is an option to keep in mind and throw out when appropriate (i.e. if you’ve noticed that your opponent thinks he can just normal jump + pipe for free when he gets close to IM).

[DevilJin_01]

Pipe is honestly the least scary thing about Haggar IMO. If you’re having trouble with pipe Haggar you’re going to have a ton of trouble with Haggars that do more than pipe. Mainly because the good ones don’t really pipe that much.

It’s like 14 frame start up so you can definitely air throw if he does it too close and it’s easy to push block away. It’s the other options he has like the violent axe moves that get past the advance guards that are more of an issue.

If you can get Haggar down to about half health or so just XF guard cancel the pipe and anti air s.L or air throw him into death combo. Especially if Haggar is the main part of their team it’s worth it since you can get an easy mix up on the next character and kill them off with the rest of your XF and just leave them with the anchor.

If they’re crazier than you they’ll also XF guard cancel to save Haggar and then you made the entire match less of an issue from there really.

[UntitledScrub]

Haggar is broke yo…

[FuLLBLeeD]

That’s a pretty lame argument to make. You can’t just shun people off because they disagree with your view.

Yeah it was really abrasive and I wasn’t really thinking clearly when I posted it. My bad. I edited my older post, no disrespect to dime.

[KJunk]

I understand the frustration though. There are a number of posters (with valid points) who stop by to remind us of Tony’s numerous issues.

After a certain point you just want to be like “You’re right! You can’t tridash j.M anymore! He’s lower tier then we’d like! Let’s move on to working with what we’ve got.”

[DevilJin_01]

The only thing that I feel is a real issue is confirming from the air. Other than that everything else IMO = learn to improvise and step the shit up.

If you want easy Magneto and Haggar are in the other thread down the corner. Otherwise time to go in with Starks.

[FlyingVe]

For as much as I bitch about Iron Man, he’s still probably a lower mid tier character. Far from unplayable, repulser blast and unibeam are still unique enough to do some nasty things with.

[UntitledScrub]

I understand the frustration though. There are a number of posters (with valid points) who stop by to remind us of Tony’s numerous issues.

After a certain point you just want to be like “You’re right! You can’t tridash j.M anymore! He’s lower tier then we’d like! Let’s move on to working with what we’ve got.”

I definateally feel like this a lot of times, causes me to sometimes say things I don’t mean, or disregard someone’s thoughts even if they know what their talking about. Specifically relating to me despite how many hours I put in the lab with IM my doom still puts in more work… This frustrates me and when people say things like “hsien ko is better than IM umadbro?” (no offense to users of the char) it makes me realize that IM, even though he has the tools, is not as great as Doom at my current skill level.

In other news I’m close to breaking 1 milloff of a combo that’s starts off with Krispy Kreme (confirms from Max c.M range) and uses one bar and is meter positive. No hax required. Cold star can still extend combos guys.

[KJunk]

In other news I’m close to breaking 1 milloff of a combo that’s starts off with Krispy Kreme (confirms from Max c.M range) and uses one bar and is meter positive. No hax required. Cold star can still extend combos guys.

Are you having to use a weaker version of Smart Bombs or Repulsor Blast to bring it together? In either case, that’s good to hear.

[UntitledScrub]

Towards the end it’s hard to land a H smart bomb and doesnt seem to be to consistent of a combo… But I vow to make this my new BnB just because it looks sooo swagtastic

So far the combo uses a repulsar blast L, repulsar blast H, and smart bombs M… But it’s still under construction.

[KJunk]

Toughest thing for me is finding a combination of assists that works midscreen too, or has at least one of them working well midscreen. Putting an IM team together is like a freaking puzzle sometimes.