Which is fine since the ground dash is very good movement wise especially with plink dashing. WIth an assist backing his plink ground dash can get him in very quickly.
His aerial mobility isn’t the best but that’s fine since he has strong horizontal options (air H, unibeam) for attacking other people that move up towards the air. Plus repulsor blast/spread with assist for AA purposes. Doom has nice aerial movement but doesn’t really have a lot for characters that can attack horizontally from the air.
You can still dash with Doom on the ground. You just have to do it in spurts and not use it when he’s too close to anyone with fast frames.
The main thing I feel Doom has over Iron Man when it comes to air and ground movement is easier hit confirms from the air and air normals to deal with people crossing you up (air M, air S). Which is nice but Doom gets hurt when he has to fight people that can shoot and attack horizontally from the air which he doesn’t have much for.
IM’s ground dash recovers in time to let him combo after an Unfly j.:h: from max distance, which is important I think.
It also does cover a decent amount of ground quickly. It’s just really unsafe, so you don’t want to use it in a situation where they can contest the movement. Under the cover of an assist or if they’re super jumping it becomes more useful.
I guess I feel his immobility issues much less playing him on point since I’m in a better position to just sit back and take it slow with pokes and specials. If I was playing him at anchor and was expecting comebacks out of him, I’d probably get frustrated quickly.
Unless he’s gotta fight 3 people I can’t say that I ever get “frustrated” with him as anchor. Doom was pretty much the same way when I had him as anchor. If he had to fight 3 people I was like “oh man…” but other than that it’s fine. The fact that he gets like 25 percent faster in XF makes his movement less of an issue. If I only gotta kill 2 people I’m fine with him.
I believe you should just build up your team strong enough from the point and 2nd spot so you’re forcing them to pull out their anchors instead of relying on your anchor. If you feel your anchor has to be this hurpa durp run shit back all the time then you probably need to work more on improving your strengths with the front of the team. That way you can force them to pull out anchors more often instead of being lazy with the front of your team.
I am very sad that Iron Man went from being one of the most mobile character to a character that is less mobile than Thor. It is frustrating because IM have fast normals but he will never get a chance to use it. I think IM is only as fast as or very slightly faster than Doom on the ground, but that doesn’t say much.
IM can fight if you have the life lead and they have to come to you, they might run into something so you can combo them to death, sword normals, beams and bombs are great for that purpose. But I feel he is beyond bad if he is chasing a game, almost on Hisen-Ko and PW’s level of being ass. I definitely don’t feel he is a good user of xfactor, not enough bonus to stop people from running away from him. That is why I build my team from the top to prevent this happening and I only use xfactor on him in combos that will 100% kill. I am currently experimenting with the Repulsor Blast assist (since I already have Hawkeye in the team) with Dante. The beam seems to come out too slow (according to the guide, this move should be fast but it isn’t) or too random for its purpose. It is great for Dante to combo from his air throw but generally quite hard to combo from unless I am in range to do a j.s or hammer and IM is unsafe on block after that assist. I have seen Joker use it in combos and thats about it, maybe you guys can be more creative than I am and find more use for it.
Anyway, my favourite colour is the gold one and classic.
Repulsarblast is good for incoming mixups…unibeam is better for both those characters though IMO…
Also thor has always had better air movement than IM with his mighty strikes and plinking dashing during flight…even in vanilla
I’ve been working on j.H xx light smart bombs / call ammy cr. H to go in on opponents that are trying to approach me by ground. Also after repulser spread as an anti-air I usually call ammy and if the opponent techs forward they’ll roll into ammy and be forced to take a box dash into a mixup:
Box dash j.S / j.l
Box dash j.S xx fly j. S
Box dash j.S xx fly j.dH j.S
Box Dash j.M j.S
If they roll backwards I can pin them with unibeam on wakeup and protect ammy…
We don’t have a matchup thread here. Should I make one?
Either way, I came here to ask wtf are you supposed to do against doctor strange, especially with xfc lvl 3? I don’t wanna call assists because I don’t Stark and my assist to get blown up by Book of Vishanti. Any ideas? So far only Cap and Hawkeye can stop strange
So do my best to block his full screen pressure and potential teleport crossups, and hope I have enough health to make it, then go crazy rushdown on him?
Dr.Strange is garbage anchor (his assists aren’t good enough to warrant him being anchor either). He has no safe normals, no safe special moves, no high/low game, a really short travelling dash, no way to maneuver himself away from you if you start to get in (just mash super which you know is coming) etc. The only thing you’re going to lose to is mash super which if you save your XF…I don’t even know how you’re losing to that.
Any way quickest way to just lame out Strange anchor is just move into the corner. He’s like Phoenix where if you just run to the corner he can’t teleport behind you which eliminates basically ALL of his mix up. The only thing he can do is spend a really long time trying to chip you down. You can even try and trick him by moving out of the corner slightly and then moving back in the corner so he can’t cross you up to bait teleports.
Vishanti super is negative 30 on block so if you’re anywhere near Strange and have a fast super or just anybody with a fast dash you can go in and punish it on block easily.
If you really don’t wanna deal with it at all just snap him in like all the other anchors.
When he has no meter and assists, Strange’s only way to approach you is to teleport, even with assists he has to teleport because his other movement options are among the very worst, but it just much safer when he calls assist and do it. He can’t zone IM because IM actually have the tools to handle his zoning. You can pretty much just sit there all day doing Replusor or mashing low with IM and he will teleport himself into them if he is stupid enough to do raw ports, when he stop doing it just beam him to death.
Depending on how much meter he has, you should take him to the skys. IM can SB on him for free when he has no meter, the only move he can hit you with is the daggers, but that move is really slow and doesn’t really track that well. Strange’s normals are slow and very unsafe, he literally can’t do anything if you are next to him and IM’s super long air dash will get you next to him really easily. This is one of the few match ups I think IM’s new air dash is actually useful for once.
But you should be wary of his hyper. Don’t dash too much (IM cannot block during his long dashes for 11 frames, which is a eternity in UMVC3) or do too many slow moves because he can TOD anyone with hyper xx xfactor into palm loop. Just bunny hop towards him with the odd assist call to pressure him into the corner and make sure you are ready to bait and block his hyper anytime.
I honestly think that repulsar blast is quite spammable in certain matchups… Against teleporters and tridashers in particular. IMO its the perfect tool to transition defense-offense. It’s particularly amazing if you can call an assist before the blast so you can be at an advantage if the spread is blocked… The best for this would be drones and missiles… Tbh I could see viewtiful Joe’s bomb working aswell because of how it’s delayed hmmmmmmm…
Underrated tool and hate when people say it is solely to be used in combos. It covers the assist and the assist covers the recovery, solid tool when used with certain assist in certain matchups. And uhh if nullifies certain projectiles… So even if they cover their approach with an assist they can’t really blow up YOUR assist with, let’s say, plasma beam.
I feel like Repulsor Blast is under-rated and also over-used. Unless you have Drones or some other assist that carries over after it, having a Rep Blast blocked will effectively end any pressure you had going. You may not get punished for it, but you definitely won’t be in a position to contest what they do next.
If you’re having trouble placing IM’s picky normals, falling back on the giant ball move with tons of active frames feels much more comfortable. Don’t let it be a crutch though. It’s definitely the weakest of all his mix-ups on incoming characters.
Unless you’re talking about hit confirms on people at super jump height, not really. Hit confirming and converting becomes very easy and consistent if you’re comfortable with the Krispy Kreme combo.
The people I see struggling with it are trying to use cr.M into launcher, and that gives you no time to confirm and limits your range.
You know, I’m starting to wonder what makes people think Iron man was “better” in vanilla if his ground hit confirming was so shitty back then. And his air hit confirm was abysmal, especially compared to now.
sigh… ive often wondered why i get so little credit for mentioning things ive mentioned. ive seen people read shit that ive said and then use it in there own conversations as if they came up with it… its kinda upsetting when you realize that you ARE a contributor yet get little to no credit for it. anywho, ive decided to post ALOT less cause of that PLUS fact that my current community doesnt support meetups as much as i would like and therefor my knowledge of the game is slowly but surely being outdated… i havent played a serious set in a month and a half and probably had about as much time off before that. i dont like to play games that i have no incentive to practice.
anywho on to the reason to why im posting:
about the argument between DJ and the others here, i feel as if DJ i a little overassumptive about IM in general, he hasnt played the character long enough to really feel its strengths and weaknesses as well as the ohter forum warriors in here. however i do believe that he has a point in that IM’s ground dash isnt nearly as bad as some posters make out… BUT i think his point is moot. not only is the doom dash versus IM dash largely irrelevant (IM doesnt have a command grab like a bunch of characters, but its still a moot point) the reason why is because doom ha OTHER things/moves at his disposal that help him get around. i havent seen even one doom owning with hid regular dash… his regular dash fucking sucks if it isnt canceled into box/tri jump.
the problems with IM’s dash are less the 11 frame non cancelablility and more the shitty normals that he has on the ground… BEFORE some smart person goes and argues IM’s normals on the ground are actually really good… they need to know what actually constitutes good ground normals in mvc3:
sword/projectile invincibility
huge hitboxes for controlling ground AND regular jump height with one move while simultaneously allowing for hitconfirms.
fast startup
REALLY good “option select” chain starter ie i press 1 then 2, and if my 1 made contact… 2 will come out and allow me to hitconfirm with 3 (easy examples are dantes standing L,M then H and wolvies standing L,M then H… both of those will hit jumping opponents well, grounded opponents well, arent duckable and only a very safe on wiff L will come out if they miss)
IM is missing the “option select” grounded or in the air aspect of his normals. ie they will hit no matter what state his opponent is in… he has t guess his opponent is grounded to use his c.M and his c.L. he has to guess his opponent is in the air to use his standing L.
he cant use his standing L to hit most crouchers so thats a complete no go and is a guess most times that the opponent will be bloking high or jumping in… which makes it weak. his only moves that hit mid instead of really high or really low are his standing M, his standing H, and his standing S. trying to dash in with regular standing H is suicidal if used with any regularity. s is obviously bad as well. so that leaves only his standing m as a good option select starter. unfortunately his m although it has sword like hitboxes and is better than what most if not EVERY IM gives it credit for… comes with the bad disadvantage of being somewhat slow on startup while also being slowed down by an 11 frame startup dash. if IM didnt have that 11 frame startup on his dash, his standing m would be godlike and IM would be at a much higher tier in my eyes especially since it 3 chains into flight for an easy hitconfirm.
so yeah, i think both dj AND those arguing against IM’s dash being good are right. the frames on IM’s dash plus its speed acroos the floor make it good… the moves available from it after its done make it bad… so i the end its just bad… but technically dj is still right.
also, the new dash + drones xx repulsor tech is enough in my mind to move up IM in the tiers, at least a slot imho… its really good technology that i first put to “paper” AFTER being schooled by an IM forum native (pls speak up as to who you are, you should get 90% of the credit) to the applications of drones + repulsor (no dash) in the old theory thread… FUNNY how literally 2-3 weeks after that im seeing it on video and being discussed all over the place… like alot of shit i make up, or in this case, expand upon.
sigh.
anywho, i encourage all those using IM to try out the dash drones xx repulsor technology.
it really only takes ONE good/broken thing to make a character good or broken and repulsor with drones might just be that thing to bring IM up in the tiers.
also it really DOESNT matter whether or not every other character can make good use of drones… it only matters how safe they can make drones and whether or not they can take advantage of it once its safely onscreen… IM seems to be able to do both quite well so he may in fact be one of the best drones users in the game by simple math of IM gets out drones 15 times per game on average safely versus mags only does it ten times per game safely (numbers completely arbitrary and unscientfic)
anywho theres some good knowledge up there^^ if you didnt tldr it.
Well, he can confirm and convert combos from further away in Ultimate due to the new :h: xx flight to j. link that starts the Krispy combo. But his tridash was usable in Vanilla which made it much easier to put pressure on the opponent, and that forward momentum and angle made the shorter range less of an issue.
It’s kinda like how if you play him with Drones now, you don’t need the Krispy combo as much because Drones let you dash right up next to the opponent while they’re stuck in block stun. I still think you should learn the combo anyway, but it’s definitely less critical in that case.
I just assume that when people complain about the hit confirming, they’re just echoing what they’ve heard elsewhere and haven’t gotten into his new stuff.
You have a good point about his ground normals not being universal against grounded or airborne opponents, except for maybe :h: which is slow. He doesn’t have something like Dante’s which he can just throw out and turn into a combo either way if it hits.
But I try to only be on the ground when I’m between flights or applying a mix-up, or they’ve forced me into blocking there. IM’s j.:h: can fill that spot you’re talking about, I think.
I feel he’s much stronger right off the ground where he can still cover approaches from the ground with j.2H or j.S, and he’s ready to box someone out of the air if they try to jump or tridash in.
Also I agree that he’s better than many characters are with Drones simply because of how Repulsor Blast works. And I don’t feel that I’ve seen enough of his Air Dash Down tricks under Drones cover to really say that people are making the most of what he can do with them so far.
Firstly you kinda have to realize is that on the internet unless you patent something shit will probably get stole. Especially when it comes to reasonable theories for a character in a video game. Forget it. Only way is to keep it to yourself. I personally don’t care who knows what I know or who says what I know because I prefer people knowing than not knowing no matter who knows (especially since it’s a hobby that revolves around a video game at best). On something as anonymous as the internet you can only expect such.
Almost no air dash character has a normal on the ground that covers both ground and aerial the same way Dante and Wolvie do. They’re more ground oriented characters any way so that’s kinda why they are dealt those kind of normals from the ground.
If you compare Iron Man vs. Doom…I’ve played Doom long enough to know that he has basically 2 ground normals. One is his c.L which will whiff easily against people in the air when trying to hit confirm, and his s.L which is good for anti airing and that’s about it. If you want to hit confirm and not drop shit all over the place c.L delay c.H option select is your best way to go. It easily whiffs against people that are even remotely airborne but it’s the best string you can use on hit or block OS to dash past their advance guard if they do so and on whiff you’ll only get the c.L. His c.M whiffs all the time during chains so it’s not even worth the risk and it’s only really solid for anti air purposes and doesn’t hit low either.
While those 2 ground normals are good they’re hardly ideal and I would go as far to say that overall Iron Man has the better ground normal game. The fact that he can cancel his dash into attacks at all helps first off. Secondly he has a 5 frame start up rapid fire c.L, a 7 frame start up c.M with a very disjointed hit box, a s.M that I don’t think he really needs but seems to be good for pressure, a solid s.L for AA and even s.H when used in the right spot is just another huge hit box you can use to pressure with. This includes the fact that Iron Man also has a completely better flight cancel game for staying in on advance guards and varying his ground pressure more easily. Doom basically has one normal you should ever use ever for ground poking purposes (that he pretty much has to commit to standing still to utilize) while Iron Man has multiple ones where he can at least dash cancel at some point + have a strong flight cancel to continue pressure with.
Most of Iron Man’s hit boxes basically constitute as sword normals (he’s basically an 8 way air dasher with sword normals). You may not get the same easy mode conversion off an Iron Man c.M against a standing/crouching opponent as you do Dante’s s.M…but the fact that he has a vast array of those types of normals should definitely not be slept on. Especially for a character that can move around in 8 directions from the air, has a box jump, a long travelling fast dash etc.
There’s nothing about Iron Man’s normals that are shitty. There are very few characters in this game that I believe truly have shit normals really. They did a good job making sure everybody has cheap hit boxes in general like the old games. Especially since his hit confirming off both the ground and aerial normals has supposedly improved since Vanilla. Not that I played Vanilla Iron Man but it really doesn’t matter at this point since this is the relevant Iron Man that we need to put together now.
If you believe his s.M is that good I’ll check it out though since it does have that “hits both aerial and grounded” coverage that you like. I tried messing with it and the pushback on hit/block seems kinda finnicky but I’ll mess with it since the applications for hit confirming could be good. To bring up it’s speed…it’s actually extremely fast for a normal that long at 8 frame start up. Dante’s s.M has 10 frame start up which is the main normal he uses to auto throw people into combos. It used to be his s.L which was also 8 frame start up but they nerfed the hit box on it so you’re forced to use s.M now. There is the 11 frame dash cancel issue but considering the range on his dash any way and other long ranged tools he has, we’ll see how it adds up.
Saying his dash has “11 frame start up” is kinda making it seem worse than it is. If his dash had 11 frame start up it would be the worst in the game. The issue is that you can’t cancel it into an attack or normal until the 11th frame but I think the better idea is to understand what Capcom feels Iron Man has such strength in that they would need to relegate his dash cancelling to the 11th frame after it starts. Obviously Capcom felt this was necessary to diversify the character or keeping him from getting out of hand in some way so I feel for people playing Iron Man it’s on them to figure out his strengths that make it apparent why he needs to have this delay on his dash.
Just as how there’s a specific reason Doom can’t cancel his dash into normals etc.
Capcom doesn’t just go “yeah Iron Man needs to wait 11 frames to cancel his dash and needs a SJ height only ADDF cuz that’s what we feel like doing”. There’s specific things they want the character to do and specific things that can be done with those traits. That’s what we need to figure out instead of worrying so much about why he doesn’t play like Magneto.
of course i realize that… doesnt make it any easier to swallow when our no longer playing the game. were i still playing consistently i doubt i’d care. you also come up with all kinds of new shit, the diff is that you at least get respect as a poster… i dont. its small beans i know and i know that i shouldnt care… but i do. c’est la vie
yes, i know. but the fact that pretty much all 8 way airdashers have substandard normals when compared to non 8 way dashers… doesnt all of a suddenly make IM’s normals like they were on a non 8 way dasher…
the problem is that he has one of the WORST if not THE worst ADDF’s in the entire game. magneto doesnt need good ground normals cause he has imba addf j.L and ground L disruptor.
when you have those godlike moves, sword normals dont seem so busted.
i hope you get what im saying.
i dont know how else to say it but: THE TRIANGLE JUMP BEFORE THE NORMAL IS WHAT MAKES THE NORMAL SO GOOD.
a very obvious example is vanilla ironman j.M which isnt even used anymore cause of the ADDF nerf. the frames,damage and range plus hitboxes on that move werent even touched afaik yet its not even used anymore. however if we were to play vanilla i can guarantee every IM would start using it again.
so, basically, what im saying is that you pointing out dooms “shitty normals” or lack of variety of good normals is a misnomer. he has a good triangle jump and that alone makes his normals better. he can tri jump c.L for a hyper fast low, or he can boxjump m for an unduckable overhead… thats pretty good if doom manages to get close.
i think your still seeing it through rose colored glasses. “everyone having cheap hitboxes” for instance isnt a particularly great argument cause its notnecessarily the hitboxes that even make moves cheap in this game… though that has alot to do with it. what those hitboxes allow you to do and how many followups they have is what makes them cheap. ease of followup is another thing that makes them cheap. its kinda like virtua fighter where every character can win cause every character has hard hitting combos that are available from multiple positions and hit multiple blocks… no what makes one virtua fighter better than another is largely based on how SAFE those combo starters are. the best characters have the SAFEST combo starters and some are even plus on block or can be used in ways that make it seem so. this has nothing to do with mvc3 except to see that even in homogenity like what is VF, there ARE factors that make some characters much better than others… mvc3 is no different. IM has good hitboxes but his followups from those hitboxes are very hard and spacing/height specific.
and while you MAY want to argue that that just means IM players haveto step up there games… it doesnt stop the fact that if any decent IM hits with a random air to air jumping H, hes not gong to be able to follow it up to a full combo anywhere near as much as other characters that hit with random air to airs. which means he loses da,age in the long run. once again its balance by numbers… and its very hard to get the balance wrong when one looks at it like that. the only real exceptions are obvious characters like arthur and sim that can exert so much control that they dont need to be doing max damage for every little hit. IM is right in that shitty middle spectrum where he doesnt control enough screen easily nor does he have the easy mode ground bounces nor does he have the best airdashes nor does he the busted vertical ranged ground normals that pretty much all run this game. THATS why his normals are shitty. you arent looking at the bigger picture like how IM’s moves interact with others nor how they do when thinking of things like “does he have a groundbounce” “does he have a stupid option select” “does he have an abuseable hitconfirm” “does he have a normal that pushes the enemy really far back on hit or block”
he doesnt have any of those. all he has is range that is easily eclipsed by many if not most characters or easily rn away from by those that cant outrange him…
i mean who does he outrange? felicia she has airdeltakick so she doesnt have to deal with his BS. wolverine? he has divekick, and converts off of akuma who eats ironmans shit easily since ironmans normals are projectiles and akuma eats those up. in the end IM doesnt really out range ANYONE. and thats the sad sad truth. even haggar can be a problem tough IM outranges pipe with his jumping h… pipe has nearly the same exact range and is ALWAYS a conversion into big damage.
his standing m is only good if your using assists for lockdown like how justin uses his assists during blockstrings. the problem with standing m is its followups:
c.m (wiffs against airborn opponents that standing m hit)
standing h ( no knockup cause c.m got omitted meaning not a very good confirm)
s or repulsor or unibeam (all unsafe, have little range, or are bad hitconfirms in general)
HOWEVER, standing m when used as assist+m then chained to standing h is pretty good as a way to get into flight and go for mixups… which is the primary way i use it and its damn good for that… just dont think of it as a confirm and it gets alot better.
i apologize for that error in lnguage but what i meant was that his dash adds 11 frames of startup to whatever normal/special he wants to do.
that actually means someting cause alot of times you WILL want to dash for less than 11 frames of distance… yet you cant… and that sucks in the situations where you really need all of those frames to try and out startupspeed prioritize your opponent.
link that starts the Krispy combo. But his tridash was usable in Vanilla which made it much easier to put pressure on the opponent, and that forward momentum and angle made the shorter range less of an issue.