TvC: Tier List Speculation

Classic Fighting Games Tatsunoko VS Capcom
341

I’m not saying that Karas is invincible…he’s not nearly as bad as some of the MvC2 characters were…I’m just more or less interested in what more will be discovered in the future. There are plenty of ways to get out of Karas corner pressure btw. Batsu can tardy counter, I believe soki can do one of his super armor moves to knock him off, VCing, Mega Crash. Another option may also be to let yourself get hit by the slide. If you get hit, Karas can’t infinite you and you’ll be thrown out of the corner b/c of the slide. Of course that’s only if the player isn’t fast enough to hit you with a DP or lvl 3 (which WILL hurt). The same kinda goes for VCing as well…I heard that karas can sword spin and stop the incoming character…don’t know for sure (somebody please verify). All in all, there are ways around Karas, and of course…he dies in one hit. Karas imo, is only really dangerous when he turtles…b/c he can AG and punish virtually any non-projectile normal and one good hit is all it takes for him to hurt/kill you (of course same could be said against him).

my 2cents…

342

Sorry dude u can bait tardy counters and punish…but being very patient and push blocking is probably the best thing to do

343

Karas’ attacks are fast and have good range both horizontally and vertically. He’s obviously good the first time you use him. But in many games the characters who stand out at first are not the ones who end up being the best, so whatever.

There is also the problem that because everyone thinks Karas is good everyone uses him, so he develops faster, while other characters are neglected.

In other words it’s the Alpha 3 Dhalsim problem.

At this point tier speculation is fun but pointless.

344

I’m sure that once we get a bit more in-depth with stuff like frame data, there will be ways to get out of or even punish Karas’s pressure strings.

345

You guys make wayyyyyy too big a deal of Karas though. He’s good but he’s not really unbeatable, just learn the match and you can do it. push block super jump and block low all the time are your friends.

Also on Karas’s pressure strings, here are the gaps:

5C: Push block first hit and you can super jump out or sometimes punish depending on range:
2B: can be punished on push block if they don’t 5C right away a lot of the time
46A1C: push block the 1C and mash 2A or 5A, either one will usually beat it out if you are fast

Sword spin is unsafe.

A Uppercut is unsafe.

Anything from dash attack is unsafe I believe except 46B 236B. That MIGHT be punishable though, I’ve just never had it punished.

So yeah…he’s very beatable.

346

See, now that is very constructive. Just watch out for assists and find a way to escape.

What about his chain? PTX seems to be able to punish it on pushblock using the A chainsaw, so the move must be very unsafe. (Not that Karas uses it that often)

347

Oh yeah I forgot about that…I never really use it in a non combo situation. But yeah it’s horribly unsafe.

348

fixed it for ya pal

349

Be careful doing this, especially if the Karas has baroque available. He may not be able to naturally combo out of the slide at point blank range, but he can baroque it and combo into the infinite with something like: A, B, [1]C, infinite.

Even if you did take the knockdown and the Karas player misses all his follow up options, he can just attack meaty on wakeup and reset the ‘trap’.

Learning where his openings are and either super jumping out or finding a solid reversal for your characters is a much better option.

350

Like Strider from MvC1.

Oh, wait…

351

Yah, I been playing a lot lately and I’m starting to think a little differently about Karas.

I’ve also been watching a lot of the Jap vids and I’ve come to the conclusion that…

Nobody has perfect defense so Karas will get hit eventually or mess up the infinite if he does get the first hit and when that happens then you know the rest…

352

I only wish other people had this much common sense.

353

I never get hit and never drop the infinite. Nope. Haha.

But really, if I do fuck up, I’ve almost ALWAYS got burst. The only time I lose is when they get momentum early in the match before I can build meter. If I land a hit in the first 10 seconds it’s usually over, very hard to lose at that point.

354

Karas isn’t unbeatable lol. He gets hit first in the match than he often loses, just because he gets locked down himself afterwards, loses over half-life or dies, and if he hits second for an infinite it can be bursted.

VC are a powerful tool that some characters i’m convinced can out right punish his pressure (namely st. C or cr. B) for half + life. He can counter super or baroque shenanigans, but still very strong counter.

Really st. B is the only tool he has that makes him hard to fight because of it’s ability to prevent you jumping away or at him. But it normally wins because it hits a jump attack before it comes out. An active j. B from Chun or j. C from Ryu will counterhit for a free combo just if he doesn’t standing B he can do a cr. A and punish that. So trying and make him whiff a st. B or mixup the tactic above with assist cover works pretty well.

Chun is just as good lol. Need to perfect it but air to air from half screen into infinite is sexy.

355

Yeah VCs may be the answer to him, I’ve been meaning to sit down and test stuff with them actually, not sure if Karas really has a way around them. If Karas vs x character with Karas tagged out and the guy with karas tags out VCs karas he can get a free infinite, it’s kinda dumb.

Then again…VCs are the answer to everyone if they work on Karas, lol.

Problem is he has no real weakness as far as moves goes. Sure he has low stamina but outside of that he has an answer to EVERY situation. He is only limited by the player and their mistakes / decisions. It’s sad that when fighting another Karas, I feel the only way to beat them is to use karas myself. Then suddenly the match becomes easy. Karas can punish Karas for a lot of stuff most people normally can’t. It’s almost like he’s a bad matchup for himself, lol.

Anyway when it boils down to the only easy way to beat a certain character is to use that character, they are obviously top tier.

356

As some others have posted I also believe many people complain too much about him. They’re not seeing all the nasty stuff other characters can do (quite consistently with some practice) and focusing on this nigga’s range and safe moves only. Karas has a hard time hitting people low to the ground and turtles. I believe someone mentioned some options for escaping his pressure. Once you get a distance you can keep back and jump a lot. Throw projectiles, fast supers, counter pokes, etc., to punish if he gets reckless with pokes, and if he jumps you can wavedash forward or dash and throw a quick low move. Karas has a hard time hitting opponents close to the ground, so if you’re jumping a lot he might try to use j.C early which you can punish with a low move to bnb to rape. If you got no one on your team who can utilize options like these, you might want to consider adding some more variety.

Even slow niggas like Tekkaman can hang with Karas (with complimenting assists). I rather fight him than a Ryu, who seems to be much more of a pain in the ass. Standard health, 50% or more damage in one bnb combo (easy ass bnb), easily hits crouching opponents, one of the easiest crossups in the game (a fierce move no less), shinkuu is like HVB and almost impossible to punish from far, bnb starts with a low move (many other bnbs use a low jab you can block high), great assist, fast walking speed = easy throw mixups, invincible DP, overhead that you can link to other shit, excellent duo super and DHC flexibility with many characters, and probably other stuff I’m forgetting or don’t know of yet. This dude is mad butter, mad Parkay.

To summarize that briefly, Ryu is just as easy as Karas if not easier, yet he has the standard health, big damage, mixups, and flexibility that Karas does not. Karas can not IAD pressure someone in the corner easily because he has to wait until he starts falling for moves to connect. He got no overhead outside of a kasha setup, which sucks completely because his other 3rd kasha move hits high, so you can always block two kasha hits (2nd hits low) then always block the 3rd high and you will never get hit by it ever. Not to mention that both of those hits are extremely easy to punish on block. His only useful mixups are assist + f.C unblockable or walk up/wavedash throw, which can often be countered by supers, DPs, mega crashes, and other fast shit if the opponent can react. The way I see it, Karas can only hang with the best because he’s got really long range, safe pokes, and an easy bnb (just having an infinite doesn’t make a character top tier, and his isn’t even universal). But he lacks things that many other characters have. If you study him and play with patience you can hang with this nigga.

That’s all I have to say about this fool. :rofl: Maybe I’ll post later with my thoughts on some other characters (after the Karas craze subsides a bit).

357

I really don’t see how Karas is this super-broken character. He has the single worst defense in the game. And Yeah, HDL is right, there are characters that are just as bad, if not worse, than Karas. Especially the fact that this is a VS. game there are a bunch of nasty things you can do given the right conditions. Its the fact that we found something for Karas first. I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if about 2 months or so everyone says that they found something broken about Ippatsuman or Hurricane Polymar.

358

karas’s low health is a pain,but i picked up karas, and i see why he is extremely nasty. this dude practically can stay on you for long durations of the match, forcing you to probably make a mistake before he does, not to mention, while your sitting there getting abused by his block strings, he is building meter that he can use even if you did get a hit in. if you watched the japanese vids, you would have noticed in some matches how often karas did megacrash when chun got a hit on him.

he is a master of building meter i feel. i had a lot to say about him from observation, and not actual hours of play time, and after hours of play time. i agree, karas is a beast. s tier, eh, i still dont believe that, because of his ability to die so fast, but he does have a lot of things other characters just dont have, and my opinion is bias :wink:. at this point i can almost see that in the hands of a master, karas might actually crown that position, regardless of the situation of his low health. his offensive options are ridiculous.

note: kubo dominated a majority of those matches with karas, and now that i play karas, i see things he could have did to have made it even harder for gian to get in on karas. so i agree with marn, on that kubo could have played smarter.

i know my opinion now from gameplay time, but i still need to see more matchups. like okay, karas vs chun, chun is top tier, and is fast as shit, blah blah. i want to see how he fairs against other people. the fact of the matter is, there is still stuff to be found in the game, but for real…

as of now, karas is a monster, and short of maybe a couple characters being anti karas. i dont see anyone trumping this dude off gate. when you gonna s jump, because if you aint quick with it, your eating sword. want to pushblock punish that one block string he has, cool, you better not fuck up, or you might die. want to try to dash in and attack between his block strings, you cant.

on paper, he seems easily beatable if you stay on top of a few solid things, off paper, that dude is a problem period. not to mention that almost anytime karas touched someone in that match, they died, and not to mention, if that was any character except chun, they could have got the infinite of death over a few times.

shit, between balancing out when to megacrash, how to use your baroque, etc…, and then having to worry about karas’s bullshit. sheesh. like one match with kubo, chun was eating his combo in the corner, and she had two bars, she could have saved herself and megacrashed, but she didnt, because she would have most likely died anyway, and ryu would be left with nothing to defend himself. not to mention kubo could have safely tagged out for ryu many of times to save karas, and pulled him back in later when his health was better, and did work.

those vids were just the tip. after playing karas, and reviewing those vids over, they are good, but i dont think theyre gonna be close to the best of karas that will be coming soon. its not hype anymore, its a reality. karas is a problem.

but anyways, i want to see tekkaman masters. so many people are playing him, i think he will end up top. since we’re speculating and all that

i said i wasnt gonna post here anymore, but just from my karas play time, i felt i had to give my opinion one last time.

359

its not just about having an infinite, or something stupid like that souki combo recently released. we’re talking standard moves, not even specials, that you cant do shit about, but block, and take advantage of your window of opportunity when given, but by then, again, karas is already ahead of you with meter, and its probably just gonna start over again. i mean, karas can take you all the way to the corner from full screen, and you see what combo you eat in the corner. he’s got unblockable setups. hes got an infinite on the majority of the cast, and the ones that are side specific, well, an easy assist combo with ryu solves that problem real quick.

i was reading and didnt play. im telling you, after playing him continuously and learning karas. wow, its more than just some infinite and stunning combos that make him a monster. if you add up all the shit that he has, which all benefit him offensively and defensively. he is a monster. who cares if you get in one hit, if by the time you got your hit, i have 4 bars of meter, if not 5, and i just megacrash out, and then go to another possible block string to build meter back up again.

ugh, karas is disgusting

360

I agree with Jimmy that alot of this talk is “on paper”. Karas sounds alot easier to beat in this theory discussion but, nothing takes away from the fact that he simply has alot more crazy, **safe **options, and that his rushdown variations are alot more violent than other people’s.

It’s not logical to say “when you play Karas and mess up, you die; and since no one’s perfect and everyone eventually messes up, Karas is fine”. What the hell, then the same goes for the person being rushed down; they won’t have a perfect defense and eventually get hit into some bad Karas stuff.

From a certain perspective, the lack of defense sort of flies out the window, simply because Karas has so much damage potential with his stuff. Let me know if you disagree with any of the following:
-Karas is easily dying after a good combo.
-Any other character is easily dying after a good Karas loop/infinite.
Sure, that’s a little over-simplified, but I think it’s safe to say that in a Karas match, you’re dealing with high levels of damage from BOTH players, the Karas player and whoever else. From that perspective, Karas’ low health disadvantage is greatly evened out; your character is in as much danger as he is. At this point, the other character-specific options/tactics/possibilities become more important, and everyone here’s familiar with Karas’ potential in these things.