Woah, let’s get that “privileged” rhetoric out of here. Preference is one thing, but let’s not go down that route for a “hobby.” If these players you mention are that committed to paying for airfare to get to Evo/any said tourney, paying for a 2-3 night stay, and paying for all the other nuances that come with traveling, I’m pretty sure they can pay for a monitor/TV. This is no different than 360 Remix players having to purchase a PS3 stick and/or a PS3 console, just for Evo. I mean, we’re not talking about throwing down 1k for a monitor. $200 solves that issue easy.
If you are that committed to your hobby then you will realize that you ultimately have to put in time & probably, money.
Anyway, regarding the speed test, I’ll let SweetJV initially address that matter.
The difference in speeds is AFAICT related to the ‘network smoothing’ and game synchronization to compensate for lag. (I think this means input lag and ‘modified animation’ respectively.) It’s extremely unlikely that changing the turbo setting will mimic the effects of network smoothing, and definitely not the case that it mimics lag effects. The easiest (and only realistic) way to have an off-line tourney mimic on-line HDR play would to have multiple consoles and actually go on-line.
(IMO it’s also rather unfair to point the finger at Backbone for discrepancies that result from trying to adapt an off-line game to an online environment.)
I think he was referring more to the fact that the speed in an off-line game was not matching the speed found in Training mode. A disparity between offline & online speed is pretty much a given.
Bad. So, we tried turbo 4 for the first few (2?) games and it was obvious to everyone that it was just WAY too fast. Moves came out at lightning speed and it looked like it was almost impossible to react and counter some maneuvers that would have been easily countered at a slower speed. And, at least to me, even executing your own maneuvers looked tiring and accident prone due to the blinding speed. DG & V mentioned that after seeing/trying it, that speed 4 on XBox seemed much faster than when they had tried it on PS3. So, we switched back to speed 3 for the rest of the tournament and all was right with the world.
Still, this left us wondering again what’s up. Why does the PS3 feel so much slower? In talking about it, we came up with another thought. In both of the tournies that DGV had gone to where they tried switching to speed 4, not only were they held on PS3. They were also run in 4:3, instead of the modern widescreen that we all prefer. So what is it that makes it feel slower? Is it just the PS3? Does 4:3 vs 16:9 matter? Is it a combination of the two? We came up with two conclusions: 1) We should do some more testing just to make sense of it all but 2)The bottom line is that Speed 3 on XBox in widescreen is the only thing that feels solid to us and is what we wish every tourney would use.
If I find some time, I’ll try to do some tests of my own. But I’m honestly not in any hurry at this point. Something just plain feels off with the PS3 version. Everyone that plays on XBox and goes to a PS3 tourney notices it. The speed feels wrong and many top players have experienced bizarre execution problems. I’m sure at this point that it’s not our imagination. I don’t know what the issue is, but I’m sure that there is one. Regardless of what we find, I already know that XBox + speed 3 + widescreen feels solid. And that’s enough for me right now.
Well, it certainly feels that way to most XBox people that try to play on PS3. However, after experiencing this myself I recorded some tests on both systems by having Ryu and Ken stand still on the same stage. The “Round 1 fight!” intro and the the post match stuff ran at different speeds but the actual round seemed to take the exact same time on both systems. Ganelon has run some additional tests that also show them both running at the same speed.
But when you actually sit down and play a match, the PS3 feels slower. At this point we’re not sure if something during the match is slowing the PS3 down, if there’s input lag…or maybe ghosts? Nobody can figure out what’s different, but something is different.
Also, people seem to have execution problems on the PS3. I’m not sure if this is related to the “it feels slower” problem or if it’s a completely different problem. But time and time again people have run into this. Sirlin wrote up a big blog post after Evo detailing his experience with this problem and noted that 99% of their development and testing was done on XBox. The PS3 was just ported and some bugs must have slipped through the cracks. So, he urged people to use the XBox version.
If you want to see a good recent demonstration of these execution problems, watch the top 8 from NorCal Regionals. If you play with DGV and MongoloRobokop enough you’ll notice them missing a number of things that are bread and butter for them. You’ll also see Valle try and fail to get a super out twice in one match, if I recall correctly. It’s painful to see things like that happen.
I haven’t done any tests, but it feels like speed 3 online is somewhere in between speed 3 and 4 offline. At least on XBox. Not sure how things feel on PS3.
No problem man. I think a few of people had holiday stuff goin’ on. See ya next time!
I agree that speed 3 online feels a little faster than speed 3 offline and little slower than speed 4 offline, for the PS3 anyway. I actually voted for speed 4 offline in the poll, but then again I don’t attend offline tournies, although I do play a lot offline, always on speed 4.
I’m so glad I was able to make it to a ranbat finally (thanks entirely to moocus, also if you’re anywhere near Alhambra why the fuck are you not taking him up on his offer to drive people to denjin? seriously.) it was a lot of fun and really just some great matches to play and watch.
Also, people are still debating 16:9? Really? We seriously need to get over that shit and just make the tourney standard 16:9. All this talk about discriminating against people by using 16:9 is retarded. Last year PS3 was the tourney standard, was I being discriminating against because I couldn?t afford a PS3? No, I went and played and adjusted. If you still want to play 4:3 then knock yourself out, but realize that the majority of people play 16:9 so that should be the standard, so either adjust (it’s not that hard) or don’t play.
Anyways I look forward to the next ranbat and will for sure be attending (again, thanks entirely to moocus!)
PS3 and 360 are the same. T4 is identical on both platforms (and still slower than T3 DC ST). I can go on either and pull the same moves on either system. That’s why there’s nothing to adjust to there (yes, this is a thinly veiled attempt to have someone prove that wrong and have finality on this matter).
Anyway, the majority of tourneys have used 4:3; if anything, the love for 16:9 is specific to SoCal. Also, although I don’t care which system is used, PS3 is actually still the HDR tourney standard based on tourney use. And so, the perpetual conflict of ST vs. HDR, PS3 vs. 360, 4:3 vs. 16:9, T3 vs. T4, Mickey Mouse vs. Donald Duck rages on…
Obviously PS3 should be the standard for regional or smaller events simply to confirm to the EVO standard. If people want to play on the X360 and adjust then so be it, but if all these tests prove that the ‘dropped inputs’ are just in people’s heads then what is everyone accomplishing by raging against the PS3 version? T3 because judging from the comments above T4 is prohibitively fast and T2 (while an excellent film) is too slow. And 16:9 because ST=/=HDR and I think personally that HDR needs its own identity to further distance itself from ST and a widescreen aspect ratio is certainly a great way.
While all the anecdotal evidence suggests that the PS3 has its share of exclusive bugs, accusations of dropped inputs, possible speed changes, or other odd occurrences, there has yet to be definitive proof. I even plugged in a rapid fire controller (turbo buttons) and let PS3 HDR sit in training mode and I watched Ryu rapid fire jabs for a few minutes and I didn’t detect a single dropped input. Even when I started playing around with the 2P control in arcade, versus, or training mode the jabs kept rapid firing away.
If someone wants major props from the HDR community then discover definitive proof that HDR on the PS3 is dropping inputs at any time because I have yet to find a way to prove it.
In another thread there was talk about how DGV had trouble at EVO since he had to play on the floor which he was not used to.
If people want the community to grow and especially the tournament scene it would be better to have it played in a way that most are familiar with and readily have available to them.
Atleast in my opinion if the choice is between making the game look better but possibly alienating a few players that do not want to invest in a new TV/Monitor setup vs The game looking a bit older but having tournament standards available easily to everyone the choice is simply.
The Speed 4 on 360 test definitely created more questions then answers. Ganelon did several thorough tests between both systems, however did anyone test Turbo Speed 3 & 4 on 4:3 and Widescreen to see if there were differences?
When Afrolegends and I played casually for like 4 hours at ActiveGamers, we initially played on a standard CRT on Speed 3 (Xbox). After a few battles, we felt that the game felt slow and sluggish, so we then chose Speed 4 which IMO seemed to play similar to Local Match Speed 3 on the LCD I use at home (Sony brand). Before insert comment about “you were only used to playing online T3 and training mode,” prior to attending the ActiveGamers event, I played an hour casual session on Offline Local Match T3 via Widescreen just to prep for the event…so I was definitely “accustomed” to that offline speed, hence why I thought Speed 3 was slower and opted for Speed 4. From this experience, I just assumed that offline local match speed 4 was the same on any format…However, when playing at Denjin it was clearly obvious that Speed 4 on an Asus monitor via Widescreen was considerably faster than playing Speed 4 on a CRT.
As it stands right now, from numerous observations and comments from many players at the various tournies I’ve attended (Warzone, Denjin, SB4, NCR) It “seems” that the Xbox360 via the Asus on Widescreen format Speed 3 would be the best choice. Unfortunately, it seems that the Evo Staff will probably stick with the PS3, not unless someone generously donates 30+ X360s.
Shari:
I’m not sure how my evo experience works as an analogy? Former pad player for over 12+ years learns stick primarily from an arcade stand and then later switches to a TE stick…I’m pretty sure I’m not the norm
If we’re talking about the community growing that means we have to look beyond the SRK HDR community. It’s obvious that the majority of people who play HDR are not affiliated with SRK. I don’t think I’m going out on the limb by saying the majority of people who purchased HDR were on 360…it’s safe to assume the majority of Xbox360 owners have at least 1 HD-compliant tv or computer LCD in their household. With that in mind you can almost assume that a majority of those players are playing the game on the dafault setting of Widescreen format. In essence that would be the format that most are familiar with. I understand your point about having a format that is readily available to all, but I’m sure everyone in this day and age either owns or knows a friend/family member with at least a computer LCD (assuming you didn’t a buy new TV in the past 5-6 years). You will always alienate some players as long as you specifically choose one system over the other, it’s unavoidable.
Speed 3 on HDR. (However, I am open to discussion. Can I get a little more clarification on DGVs speed 3/4 on/off line theory.) Then I can make a more informed decision.
The way I’m testing uses RCA equipment which, on the XBox, doesn’t allow switching to widescreen mode.
Since we’re talking about switching between different video set-ups:
It is known that video set ups can change latency – even on a lagless display, the console’s scaling may increase latency. Latency - whether it’s caused by the network or by the display system - will probably make the game feel faster because the appropriate reaction times are shorter to compensate for the effective input lag.
Ganelon asked me to elaborate on the speed differences between on and off-line play:
The clocks run at exactly the same speed on and off line. In both on and offline PvP, the clock runs at 1.5 ticks per second at Turbo 1, and 1.935 Ticks per second at Turbo 3.
I think this is what happens:
Both consoles are running copies of the game. When a player takes an action, the information is sent to the local console immediately, and down the wire along with a time stamp to the other one. So, the local player’s actions happen at normal speed. The game also keeps a record of the last second (or whatever) of game states. When command information arrives from the other console, the game goes back to the time for that information, and plays back the game from there to the current time and then picks up from there.
The game play for the local player takes place at whatever speed the game is set to. Because the early frames of moves the away player executes take place during the time the information is ‘going through the tubes’, if it comes out, those early frames will not be shown. Rather, the game resynchronizes to partway through your opponent’s move, and if you’re going to react, you have to do so more quickly.
Key reaction time breaks for humans tend to be in the range of 10-12 real frames and 20-22 real frames. That corresponds to 12.5-15 and 24-26.5 game frames at turbo 3. Throw in 3 frames for input lag, and moves with 16-19 frame or 27-30 frame start-up are likely to be much more effective on-line than off-line.
Some examples might be:
Ryu, Ken, Akuma, and 'sim’s projectiles.
Ryu’s overhead.
The hawk dive
Ken’s short funny kick.
Fei’s command Roundhouse
Jab yoga flame
Hooligan roll
Conversely, many of Blanka’s regular moves have startup frames that look like his neutral pose, so they should look about normal speed.
Thanks for the details, Rufus. So basically, in your tests, you found that the duration of a round (used to measure game speed) is identical (both in timer ticks and actual seconds) online and offline? And that if you jump a whole round with Ryu (or another character) online or offline, he goes in the exact same arc? So basically, the faster speed everyone is noticing online is actually an illusion caused by the smaller window to react to moves (caused by the graphics running behind while displaying the opponent’s actions)?
If that’s the case, this finding is pretty amazing and shows how everyone, myself included, was off about online being faster than offline. It would also shatter my remaining faith in any difference between PS3/360 since everyone was pretty much in agreement they felt online had a faster speed and even then, it was all a trick of the senses.
