XSPR: I don’t control what others have to say to me and hadn’t addressed my previous post to you. I didn’t mind letting your last comment slide because it’s your opinion but if you want to make another stand over a reiteration of my opinion, I can continue. It’s all good writing practice for me. And even though I don’t agree with the methods you use from your perspective, I do like your focus on empirical evidence much more so than the “murky theory” I often deal with. It’s too bad the exact type of head-to-head evidence I prefer is in such short supply. But it’s nice to hear that if a US team wins Tougeki, then your opinions would shift. And conversely, if top US players fall to weaker comp in Tougeki round 1, my position would change.
OK, so back to the 2000 exhibition, I concur that Japan took out 2 US players almost completely. But what’s that supposed to mean? The other 2 Americans did just fine, with 1 above all of the Japanese and 1 in between, The fact is that Seth wasn’t originally supposed to be there whereas all 5 of the JP players were pre-planned. And I never said he was on equal footing with the Japanese. You lumped him, Watson, and the others together. I agree Seth has done very well in US tourneys but as I said, at most a dozen US players qualify as being on Japan’s high level (the exact number and players would depend on the specific head-to-head records we don’t have much of, specifically those who did the most to prevent JP players from winning at Evo). You’re free to exclude any of the Japanese in that exhibition as non-top players as well, although I think they’ve all proven themselves.
And I don’t care about perfects or individual round results. I didn’t bother counting or commenting on them because I think that’s splitting hairs. Any Blanka can take me down to half my life just doing random blanka balls that I’ll have to block and punish. T.Hawk can near-perfect most of the crew on 1 knockdown at the beginning as much as at the end. And I already mentioned that anyone winning in round 1 is auto-handicapped in round 2. So I think that’s an inconclusive consideration. I’m not even sure individual games matter compared to who ultimately takes the match (so there’s no “gauging the opponent” 1st round/match factor).
Regarding R&D, do you really think folks like Cole, Valle, Choi, and the Wolfe brothers bothered to check out Japanese matches in detail? I do agree that most players nowadays copy the Japanese too much and it shows since they have a great deal of difficulty beating the Japanese using shadows of the original techniques. I’ll admit that when I first started with Guile, I tried to copy from JP match videos as well and just “act” like they did. It didn’t work very well since I had no idea of the reasoning behind what I was doing. When I switched to claw, I very loosely followed the YBH tips, watched videos but only took straightforward techniques I could immediately understand, and developed the rest of my play style by myself starting as a stiff, c.MP mashing and wall dive looping zombie. I still view JP videos to see what other tricks I missed, and NH2 has helpfully pointed a couple of things out for me, but I think at this point, I also see a few situations at times where the JP claws might improve by picking up one of my tricks. How did that come to be? Because I tried to figure out my own solutions for problems instead of referring back all the time to how top JP claws react.
As for a 0-0 record against Daigo, I wouldn’t be surprised if he would beat me with his boxer if we ever played but I see no reason to accept that Daigo wins without even playing. Daigo’s skills originated in Japan but he’s continued to get practice/warmed up playing often in US tourneys and has been exposed to more styles of play than anybody else. I suppose a wild card I have is that I’ve likely played against more people in online ST since 2007 than anybody else in the world. From Kaillera until now, I’ve seen all sorts of styles. That may not be enough compared to the brutal, weekly offline competition in Japan but GGPO and offline practice was enough to help me prepare for a good deal of what I could expect in Japan. I was a bit worried about new techniques from T.Hawk and Cammy that I had no clue how to handle, but incidentally, there was little new and it seemed I was already on solid footing.
The few good US Hawks on GGPO made me learn how to build a good fundamental defense that I only had to add additional caution and timing to in casuals to feel prepared for tourney time. And even though I admit still being unfamiliar to certain other tactics that I didn’t realize before heading to Japan (tactics that aren’t used over here and would likely be weaknesses come tourney time), the tourney proved what I had already felt and experienced for a long time with Hawk. On another note, damdai made a prediction earlier this year that he thought his o.Ken could beat Tokido’s claw in a tourney based on his casuals against me. I liked damdai but wasn’t sure either way given that Tokido had done so well in past US tourneys. But sure enough, damdai proved his word at Evo. Even so, you might say, there’s no comparison to playing highly concentrated top comp all the time. That brings me to my next point.
As for why higher quantity doesn’t necessarily lead to noticeable increases in quality, well, it normally does but there’s a limit to the game at which you can’t escape from the folks chasing you anymore. In this competitive cave, you can climb near the highest point in the ceiling (with no way up from there) but other folks also climbing the ceiling can take potshots at that point. As you said, there’s a difference even amongst high level players but at that point, it’s also not clear who’s always in the best situation at any given time. Shooting D may be overall a more effective Ryu in most matchups but Futachan has a reputation for having the best recent record against boxer, claw, and Dhalsim. And we know that from individual matches rather than solely from their tourney placings.
Beyond competition as a factor for improving, there’s also an individual’s demonstrable interest in striving to become the best and in practicing more. I only know what I do about ST because I’ve scoured SRK and various other sources for every bit on claw, notes on engine design, and tourney player advice that might help me improve. I’ve played 6+ hours a day for weeks at a time at some points to level up faster. All the successful US OG players I know have done the same, and I’m sure the Japanese do it too since Daigo has certainly mentioned doing so. But even that would just be theory on what makes a good player. For example, Taira made a quick jump in just over a year to high level play whereas plenty of other dictator players haven’t gotten that far after numerous years of experience. Overall, I still think results say everything and that once you have a winning or close record against high level players (e.g. a 1-0 win in your only tourney match, or going 4-6 in 10 matches), then that means you’ve also reached a high level.