No, I never encountered any hate for playing claw, but I rarely wall dived to my full advantage in casuals because I:
a. Wanted to practice my pokes since I didn’t feel there was much in the area of wall dives that I needed to practice
b. Didn’t want any potential Tougeki opponents catching on to my style. It was better for me that they feel overconfident
c. Didn’t want folks to feel like they wasted their money in 1 minute by losing to constant wall dives
So I often gave my opponents a sporting chance by not using wall dives at all or stopping at 3 reps. When I did go all out hyoubal, there were no visible consequences like players refusing to play me or anything. So at least face-to-face, I never got the impression that claw was considered scrubby or cheap. Perhaps this would be a good question for imm to answer as well, even if his normal play style isn’t as wall dive-happy as my own.
i’m gonna say no, there is no downfall for hyoubal play over there. like Gan said i’m not as big on it as he is but i too use it and noticed nothing different from anyone. saw Noguchi play 2 different nights and folks lined up for a shot at him just like anyone else.
I watched that event first hand. The Japanese teams swept the American teams not only in ST, but in every other game as well, except for Marvel which was never popular here. A lot of Americans looked at the results but said a lot of the same thing: “well it was about even, so we’re on the same level” yet only a handful of Japanese players that traveled to America since then performed at the top or near the top, often winning tournaments outright but the Americans that have traveled to Japan have not done anywhere near as well. Not once. Oh, there was that one year-- no, not once. And I don’t know about Seth being such a “hasty substitute”- he was a strong ST player among Americans right up to that time.
The guy on the bike in the clip below basically makes the jump well I mean he’s basically on the level as having had made it… a very wise man wrote recently:
It’s all about American culture and the entitlement/“I’m aweosme” mentality that’s gotten amped up over here over the past few decades, thanks to abysmal education and pop culture. http://goo.gl/YJovU
"In almost every category, we’ve fallen behind, except one… kids from the USA ranked no. 1 in confidence."
Please read the part in my last post where I already addressed all these arguments. I’ll try to summarize the logic here if that was difficult to digest:
12-8 was the score in the only event where there was an unquestionable top set of players on both sides with a fixed number of matches. I say that Seth was a “hasty replacement” because while he may have been a solid choice at the time, he wasn’t the originally intended 4th US representative based on tourney results (IIRC, Bang the Machine covered this swap).
There’s a difference in player depth. There may be around 26/32 JP killer teams at Tougeki. There’s at most 12/150 individual US killers at Evo that I think can compete with the top Japanese, if that. Thus, it’s easier for the Japanese to achieve high results here than vice versa. 1/12 chances are much easier than 1/26 chances, esp. when you need all 2-3 players at killer ability in the latter to even have those chances in the first place. And even then, we only get 1-2 shots per tourney as opposed to the 3 or more we face at Evo. And there have been 7 official Evo ST tourneys but only 4 Tougeki ST tourneys, which further decreases the chances of a Tougeki victory.
There’s a difference in player representation. We tended to always get JP players from a very high level—Nuki, Daigo, and Tokido—coming here rather than players lower on the depth chart (who we were generally able to stop). Meanwhile, it’s not like we sent our OG powerhouses such as Cole and Choi to Tougeki every time or even one time.
If you look at individual JP performance against individual top US performance in ST, there doesn’t seem to be much discrepancy in match records. I hate naming names but it seems you’re not going to consider otherwise until I mention a few: Daigo has a huge advantage over the US, likely never losing a match in ST. Tokido seems to have an overall winning record. Shooting D and Aniken are tied with the US. Otochun had a 3-2 losing record against the US before going up 5-3 this year. Nuki, Gian, and Kusumondo are fairly even against the top US with wins and losses. KKY and most JP players who don’t usually play ST (Itazan, etc.) seem to have overall losing records. Those records are based on the exhibition and Evo actual matches (e.g. video shows Kusu losing to Valle, 2nd place must have lost to 1st place, etc., including searches on years when folks didn’t make top 8) and to me, they seem fairly comparable, with a slight edge in Japan’s favor.
Essentially, you’re basing everything on tourney placing, which introduces the potential side effect variables of player depth and representation that I mentioned above. I’m basing everything on the actual matches amongst top players themselves, which involve no external factors. We’re not talking about other games either, and perhaps you’re letting the one-sidedness of those situations cloud your judgment here in ST.
Yes, I based my stats on tournament placings- more specifically, which guy got first in each tournament. Even in Evo’s double elimination format, which takes more than twice as long as single elim, it does not necessarily give you much more accurate results beyond the top player or two.
I probably still don’t quite understand then… when you say 26/32 JP killer teams, you mean 26 teams of the total 32? And so in Evo you have more of a chance of getting easier wins on non-killer US players, 12 out of 150? I don’t understand how that makes much of a difference, if any i.e. don’t the Japanese contestants face the same situation in either case? Same thing with how many official ST tourneys at Evo vs. at Tougeki; if ST’s not at Tougeki, it’s not some automatic win for Japanese-only players.
Who exactly were American players generally able to stop? Nuki, Daigo, and Tokido can hold their own in ST in Japan, that is true but only Daigo has ever placed at XMANIA and I think all of them are typically focused on other games while at tournaments like Evo these days. Cole came to Japan, I remember playing him, that was 2003 I think and he did not win the tournament. Choi (and maybe Cole too for that matter) don’t seem to be so interested in ST now. What other American ST players are left these days that are even interested? The three Japanese players travel and play ST, but Americans have a hard enough time just showing up. (150? is it even that many players for ST at Evo?)
Daigo is indeed strong, and a big part of the reason is because he played in Japan. Tokido is also not active in the Japanese ST scene and just does a bunch of wall dives. Shooting D and Aniken are tied with the US? I find that hard to believe, are you basing that on the 5 on 5 from 2000? Shooting D lost to Valle and Choi’s o.Sagats, but if we call that “even” I’m going to split yet another hair here and just mention that he took a round during his match with Choi, which puts him “ahead” with 5 rounds won compared to the 4 rounds he lost. Aniken did even better, beating every American except Choi (in terms of total rounds, Aniken won 7 and lost 4). Maybe they played Americans (and lost) at some other time, but I can’t think of any. In any case, I don’t think there’s much to compare as either one is far ahead and so is Otochun for that matter. As for Gian, I see him taking 1st place the year he went to America- and I heard he was also going to take bets during that trip but canceled as soon as he saw the speed setting differences or something. It’s unfortunate but a lot of the American ST players simply gave up ST and don’t play anymore. Mike Watson also played at that event in 2000, and the only one he managed to beat was Otochun, losing to everyone else. This is a guy that got many first place or top 3 placings at American ST tournaments. He also came back to Japan at least one other time, qualifying for Tougeki in 2003.
Dont forget about counterpicking, instead of trying to improve ur main, fuck it! I will counterpick! thats how Evo n many others american tournaments run
Yeah, I mean 26 teams that have players with reasonable shots of taking out fellow high level players. There’s no science I used to that number besides just discounting the ones from this year that I felt had long odds. Same with my Evo number. I reckon there would be at most a dozen players at Evo who could fare decently against other most strong players. You could say these “killers” represent the hill at the top of the ST player skill chart, both the very top and those who can win maybe 1/3 of the games against the top.
And with that stacked competition at Tougeki, it’s hard for anyone to win, which is why only Otochun has won twice (while getting stopped by Graham in the 1st round of HSF2 in between). Meanwhile, dozens of other top JP players haven’t made it, much less US players from 1 team out of those 32. Like I said, if you pick some random unquestionably top level JP players like YuuVega or Tama, you’ll find a majority who haven’t even played in the championship match. And they were already paired with fellow top players. Because the quantity of top players in Japan far exceeds that of the US.
We were generally able to stop JP players who were attending Evo primarily for other games and who weren’t Daigo/Nuki/Tokido. I mentioned a couple earlier and add Nekohashi as another strong JP player; but they don’t show up in the top 8 lists so you’ll have to google for further info. And yes, Daigo/Nuki/Tokido focused on other games but so did many of our own best ST players, which doesn’t really matter as long as they’re good in ST. As for OG interest, I’ve got to admit that it seems to be in decline, although Cole (who I didn’t realize attended Tougeki) is still a strong supporter and Valle still attends many tourneys.
But now, newer players are trying to keep the fire going and are faring decently. I already mentioned that I attended Tougeki last year and finished with an overall winning record. Like I said, I play claw, but like you said, beating the Japanese with anyone says a lot. So how would you know that I’m not close when my only results are of going 3-1 against unquestionably "Grade A " JP competition? We saw Valle and Choi with similar advantages from the exhibition but I’m not sure if that’s changed over the years. I’m curious to know if there are other Americans who managed to maintain a winning record against JP players at Evo, but it seems we don’t have that data immediately on-hand.
I will admit that US players don’t seem quite as interested in showing up at the moment (e.g. no WC or international players this year at qualifiers) and agree that’s something that either must change or we have to show results within the next decade. Otherwise, this whole discussion may be moot since not fielding an ideal team and/or being unlucky is only a valid excuse for so long. But it’s promising that the US team this year was also able to defeat its first round opponents. If we can take out slightly lower weaker JP opponents,what makes you so sure to say that there aren’t US players next to the top level?
I was mistaken about Aniken. For Gian, you’re confusing his 1st and 2nd trips. He won the 1st time (PS version) but lost to Graham outside top 8 for his 2nd trip with CCC2, but if you want to discount that input lag-ridden version, then you’ll also have to discount Tokido’s victory that year. As for Watson, I don’t have a clear history on his performance but as he says himself on Bang the Machine, his showing at the exhibition was a disappointment. On the other hand, Choi and Valle had better results than most of the JP players they were facing there. I’m not sure what happened at Tougeki 2003 and whether any matches were won besides the fact that the US teams didn’t make it past the first round. But even if we reduce the number of US OG players who can compete with Japan’s best at ST down to Cole, Choi, and Valle (from my original estimated maximum of 12), then that’s still a US contingent that fits my original criteria of being at an equivalent level to the Japanese best based on competitive records.
For the rest, it looks like you’re splitting hairs over rounds lost, meaning the margin of victory isn’t that significant (BTW, there are damage differences between rounds so judging by rounds isn’t an entirely accurate indicator). Like I’ve already said, I don’t disagree that Japan has a slight lead in results, which you’ve clearly pointed out, just that the lead is nowhere near significant enough to indicate that Japan’s top level is on a whole other level from the US’s best, unless you’re saying even top JP players are expected to lose ~40% of the time in tourneys to supposedly far inferior competition in the form of US top players.
You say winning record, I see it more as you took out three Hawk players, then Futachan did the same to your team. I’d be a lot more impressed if you lost the match in the final though. I mean Tougeki isn’t full of tripple Hawk teams, but if they were I’m sure you’d probably have a great shot at winning America’s first Tougeki. The tournament rules and formats change, but a Japanese player usually comes out the winner by the end, even at Evo and American tournaments. Team tournament formats might not be ideal, but one benefit is the organizers save time, because you only have all players on a team play at all only when it’s close, or when the team loses to the other. With double elim, American players do a little better.
Consistency does.
The top level in a tournament means, no one’s won against you that day, within the structure of the tournament format (which is constant for all contestants, regardless of region), whether single, double elim or team. The top level also means that you have been tested more than anyone else in the tournament (except for 2nd place) by more players challenging you. I mean you can look at it from a certain angle and always say, “well I won twice and then I lost, so overall I have a winning record”, but that’s not telling the real story is it?
As long as they don’t face Daigo, Aniken and Kurahashi who have better results than those players.
For me, that tells the entire story if we’re looking for individual performance. When going by individual matches, there are no questions about how other players on a team performed, whether your country is underrepresented nearly 30 times, whether there are freebies in your path, or whether you’re in a bracket of death. Why worry about these external factors looking at tourney placings when you can get the direct head-to-head results by looking at the actual matches?
Of course, who you actually beat and lose to in those matches is more important than the numbers themselves. 2-1 is pretty meaningless if you beat Joe Shmoe and John Doe, then lose to Mary Sue. 2-1 says a lot if you beat ARG and Otochun, then lose to YuuVega. If you lose a close match in the first round against the eventual tourney winners for example, does that mean you’re weaker than any of the 2nd or 3rd placers? That’s not clear to me unless it’s known how the matches went between the teams. That’s why I’m personally a fan of round robin format (a la the 2000 exhibition) even though it’s clearly too lengthy for a normal tourney.
As for consistency of results, like I said, I don’t even see that among the Japanese. If we were basing everything off winning Tougeki, then you basically only have 10 good players and everyone else is a step down. For me, winning Tougeki is amazing for that team, but to tell what level of players are involved, you’d have to look at individual player performance.
I mentioned a few shocking omissions in my last post but let’s turn to Noguchi. He’s an unquestionable top JP player using Fei Long and claw. But take a look at his Tougeki performance: his teams’ best performance was 3rd in 4 tries. If you didn’t know whether he was Japanese or American, then purely on the basis of Tougeki results, would you be saying his skill was lacking? It would seem so, which is why I think you have a different set of standards for JP players. I can name 20 more JP players who haven’t stood out at Tougeki but I’d still consider them top level. And yes, Noguchi has a sterling X-Mania record but there are other top JP players who don’t have either. Shiki doesn’t and he’s at the top of the current danisen rankings that gauge individual ability (same for Nuki, except he has a Tougeki win in HSF2). Would your standards of top level players not include him?
Anyway, among Japanese, I only feel that Daigo has done really well against the US overall. Other than that, everything seems quite competitive. Yeah, you can say Aniken and Kurahashi dominated the Americans at the 2000 exhibition by going 3-1 apiece. But you can also say Valle topped both of them—and everyone else—by going 4-1. And viewing the situation from that angle, he could’ve afforded to lose to 3 JP players at Evo over the years and still have a balanced slate. Then, I might say we should take out Seth’s results since he wasn’t originally slated to be on the team (but bless him for trying anyway and being a big supporter). And then the US suddenly has the lead. It’s all a matter of perspective. But the fact that the data must be interpreted a certain way to show that JP players are stronger just goes to illustrate that the situation isn’t far in anyone’s favor. Recall that my original point was “I don’t feel that Japan exclusively offers high level play since I don’t believe that’s been reflected by empirical results over the years.”
That’s why I feel a modern day re-creation of 2000’s exhibition, with so many direct head-to-head results, would reveal a lot more than another Evo or Tougeki. Because I’ve often gotten the sense that there’s a lot of bias working against the US in ST coming from poor showings in other games, a much smaller pool of top players, lack of technical showmanship, more subdued interest/communications from OG players in the game, and lack of representation in Japan. These factors seem to lead people into believing that there’s a wide split in ST between the top levels of both countries even though the individual head-to-head results of the highest performing US players really don’t indicate that much difference, which seems to be a surprise to many.
ahh been so long since i’ve played sf2 but hey i’ll make some posts just to clarify a few things. got bored from studying so read some of this thread.
the year we played whatever that version was called hyper something. it was japanese ARCADE, that means wasn’t some glitchy ass home version my match vs otochun was basically st since the machine was arcade and not some bogus home version.
when i played gian on ccc2 it was obviously not a perfect version but its not like i had a magic button to make myself experience less lag. we had to deal with the same ‘handicaps’ as the japanese.
As for the mentality of how to beat people. my brother is more like he plays the character more than the player, but he of course isn’t ignorant enough to think you can only win a match by playing character vs character. myself on the other hand match up play is more on learning the player, but of course if you don’t know the character vs character you will lose. so i’m more the psychic style player.
when google comes out with their new internet maybe fighting games might become like sitting right next to someone. if anyone has anything serious to talk to me about or just wants to friend me on fb, im username grahamwolfe0. it’ll prolly be a while before me and alex have some time to return to the sf2 world if we do
Thanks for posting Graham, maybe you will come back to the ST scene at some point. btw did you hear about this fiasco with Banana Ken (sf4 player)? You’re a well known American player; if Evo staff told you that you could leave your bags/sticks in some corner and it got stolen, did Evo ever recompensate you for that or take any responsibility whatsoever?
Yeah don’t get me wrong, I’m totally for round robin formats too- which do happen in Japan (usually block format, still much better than double elim imo). That’s clearly one thing we definitely agree on. Eventually you get to a point and want to know more about how you personally stack up in a tournament. But that’s not how most tournaments are run, whether Evo or Tougeki: they only focus on finding out who is the one best player of all. (Even the 3rd place guy might be able to beat the 2nd place guy in a double elimination, but you never find out if first place beats both of them.)
I would too if I compared him to American players, because there’s top level, and then there’s top of the top level. Noguchi’s performance speaks for itself. If he got 3rd in 4 tries at Tougeki, I’m guessing he’s NOT American because Americans have never done that well at any Tougeki. So I guess I’d have to place Tougeki winners, above Noguchi, above the best American players.
Uh, Aniken beat Valle and everyone else and only lost to Choi by a round, so no matter which way you slice it, had the best record of all. Oh sure, take out Seth’s results entirely, and maybe add in some phantom player while you’re at it (Seth didn’t win a single round against anyone), it’s all a matter of perspective? Come on. Even Choi as o.sagat lost to Kurahashi’s Guile. The Japanese team made a top American OG like Mike Watson look like dead weight, only winning vs. one player out of the 5. Yet you only feel that Daigo has done really well. btw Daigo was also at that 5 on 5, but he played other games like Alpha3… not that he was needed in ST cause they still won it without him.
Well, I think a line has been drawn in the sand based on basic disagreements over perspective and what represents “high level” play. Unless there’s a new development, you’re free to believe that nobody in the US is near top level and I’ll continue stating that there are US players who can compete at a JP-equivalent high level. Everyone else is welcome to read the arguments and, more importantly, review the results themselves to make a determination. I’m glad we both agree that having more matches is preferable and hopefully, in another year or two, we’ll have a clearer picture of ST’s competitive situation.
Ahh looks like the old another level arguments are coming up. America has a lot of talent just like any country. Our biggest flaw is the size of the country and how split our talent is over large areas. Other flaws include general attitude and ego of players showing disrespect to newer players. In japan people are much more respectful of people trying to learn games. My brother and I were fortunate to have each other to practice against when we were playing a few years back allowing us to train against equally skilled and a respectful opponent ourselves. In the near future we might have superior Internet technology which will close the distance gap. Hopefully the players can rectify the ego issues and show more respect toward each other so we can grow as a team. I’d say this issue is primarily in the sf4/mvc3 arenas. Anyway back to my cave for another couple years.
Shooting D and Aniken are tied with the US? I find that hard to believe, are you basing that on the 5 on 5 from 2000? Shooting D lost to Valle and Choi’s o.Sagats, but if we call that “even” I’m going to split yet another hair here and just mention that he took a round during his match with Choi, which puts him “ahead” with 5 rounds won compared to the 4 rounds he lost. Aniken did even better, beating every American except Choi (in terms of total rounds, Aniken won 7 and lost 4). Maybe they played Americans (and lost) at some other time, but I can’t think of any. In any case, I don’t think there’s much to compare as either one is far ahead and so is Otochun for that matter. As for Gian, I see him taking 1st place the year he went to America- and I heard he was also going to take bets during that trip but canceled as soon as he saw the speed setting differences or something. It’s unfortunate but a lot of the American ST players simply gave up ST and don’t play anymore. Mike Watson also played at that event in 2000, and the only one he managed to beat was Otochun, losing to everyone else. This is a guy that got many first place or top 3 placings at American ST tournaments. He also came back to Japan at least one other time, qualifying for Tougeki in 2003.