I just mashed cr.HP today with DeeJay and got an 8-win streak
Japan knows what’s up
That’s definitely not nohoho’s account
-join date 2010
-nh2’s been here longer than that
-plus he doesn’t post filth like that either
-he would’ve just posted a pic of Saddam Hussein’s dick instead of writing about it
Lol
-trolls suck-
nope, that’s nohoho
I remember when ST came out, some said in the arcades in france that DJ was banned of some tourneys inJapan, cause he was overpowered now, with his new moves (upkick, especially)
IIRC, he was actually listed as the one best character in the game, by the time Foosuke used him. It was probably the tier list from the first ST Gamest Cup. The perception of his power dropped as people got better with other characters and their new strategies, and as they kept playing it throughout the years. I believe with the exception of Chun sometimes being included in the top group, it did not take long for the players to determine the big 4 as it is known today. BTW, was not Watson the one best player by the time it was released, beasting with Boxer? Shirts have stated that in his interview, I believe.
I also suppose the perception people had from tricky characters such as Dictator and Blanka must have decreased, as people started to learn how to deal with most their tricks/shenanigans.
Gamest ST tier chart June 1994 (http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2009/06/future-kick-your-ass-gamest-diagram.html):
Dee Jay +15
E.Honda +12
Chun Li +9
claw +8
boxer +7
Dhalsim +5
Sagat +4
Ryu +3
Blanka 0
Guile -3
dictator -3
Fei Long -7
Cammy -8
Ken -11
T.Hawk -13
Zangief -18
Gamest ST tier chart July 1994 (firsthand mook):
Dee Jay +14
E.Honda +12
Chun Li +12
boxer +7
Dhalsim +6
claw +6
Sagat +3
Ryu +2
Blanka -1
dictator -2
Guile -3
Fei Long -7
Cammy -8
Ken -11
T.Hawk -13
Zangief -17
Tougeki SBO 2010 ST tier chart Sept. 2010 (firsthand program; note that o.Sagat in tier 2 is as written, however surprising that may seem):
- claw, boxer, Chun Li, Dhalsim
- o.Sagat, Dee Jay, Ryu, Guile, o.Chun Li
- o.T.Hawk, dictator, E.Honda, Ken, Sagat, Fei Long
4, T.Hawk, Blanka, Cammy, Zangief
Tougeki SBO 2011 ST tier chart Sept. 2011 (http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2011/09/sbo-results-and-new-ranks.html)
There exists an even earlier list before May 1994 (when JP nationals took place) that had Gouki at the top with a very narrow lead ahead of, and a 5-5 matchup rating against, runner-up Dee Jay. In those halcyon days, Dee Jay’s relatively easy TOD crossups, new AA special, and faster recovering air slashers were considered amazing, esp. for a JP player base that loved executing combos.
Fast forward a couple of years as players grew familiar with supers and juggles, and the big 4 as we know them now were then in the top 6 on most lists. As oldschool_BR mentioned, Dee Jay was sort of “stuck” behind with just his TODs and new moves with no major evolution. As the years went by, from the very best to the top to the upper tier, Dee Jay was starting to get treated as an average character with the best Dee Jay players only using him as a secondary. For folks who didn’t know any better, you could’ve almost thought he was soft banned if it weren’t for the fact that tier charts kept placing Dee Jay lower over the years. Then, just a couple of years back, some players suddenly put in time, upped their game, and propped him back, culminating in Ito’s ft10 win over Otochun last year. And now, it’s no surprise that he’s on Ryu and Chun Li’s level. Nobody seems to know what exactly Seth is referring to but there are plenty of positive recent Dee Jay matches to watch.
This story isn’t all that different than T.Hawk’s situation in the US. For over 15 years, he was considered a laughingstock character with no shot at competing in US tourneys and with techniques usable only by 2-3 JP players gifted with supposedly unreal dexterity. After a few revealed tactics and someone who was dedicated to some training, the results now reveal that a Hawk in the right hands can consistently win US majors.
If even the worst character can win, it’s safe to assume that every ST character is viable in the US and that you won’t win or lose far beyond your level regardless of who you’re using. Perhaps more importantly for those waiting to hear back about the “hot new deejay tech,” if you want to surpass Japanese players, you can’t just keep eating Japan’s dust. The real moral is what most top players have always been saying about tiers: stop worrying about tier charts and go forge your own tiers.
Great stuff, Ganelon.
Seeing characters move from tier to tier over the years and different players and characters stepping up and winning tournaments is one of the great unique things about ST. This game has grown and evolved so much over the years. It’s unfortunate to see games these days with a shelf life of six months to a year before it gets “patched” and a new shiny version released. Games don’t get to evolve like that anymore.
geo: Tier list character balance discussions/arguments for all games are based on and have always been based on the highest level of competition over time. I think it’s safe to say that Japan has this game on lock as far as high level is concerned. With that in mind, all you need to do is look at the numbers and the results over the years to see this. This is also not USA where we just stopped playing the game for many years at tournaments and are only now getting a scene redeveloped. If you want a real look at how the game really works from the highest level, look to Japan. SBO consistently fields teams filled with all characters represented. That means you have to win tournaments against killers to even qualify for SBO in case you didn’t understand. It’s also not something that happens one year and is an aboration. That’s all I need to know as far as character balance is concerned for this game.
As for your continued attempts at trolling the ST community: fuck off.
edit: forgot to add my congratulations to team USA. Good shit. Let’s come back even stronger next time. Hopefully the quals will be held in a spot where even more American top players can try to qualify next time. Was there a last chance qualifier for ST like for other games at SBO?
Yes, there’s always a last chance qualifier for every game at every Tougeki, and Super Battle Opera 2011 was no exception. Check out the first post for this year’s ST last chance winners that were updated after Seth put up the brackets.
Note that while Kanto/Kansai has high level play in most ST tourneys unlike anywhere n the US, I don’t feel that Japan exclusively offers high level play since I don’t believe that’s been reflected by empirical results over the years. I think it’s high time we have another ~5-on-5 US-Japan invitational to really see what’s changed since the last decade…
I most certainly agree with Ganelon’s post. I would only add one specifc thing, about Dee Jay, which is real for both US and Brazil: people should train and master his different combos. Also, they should train his hit-confirms and links so that he can offer danger when the cross-up does not hit. This will eventually force players to crouch block and just tech. I do not see players in Americas punishing throw mashing, but by using an eventual cr.Fwd. Also, people gotta pay attention to the enemy while jumping - which is also true for Ryu, and something I should definitely concentrate much more on (after I fkng learn DPs again, bleh). If the enemy is not stuck into a move, you may change actions, maybe go for a throw, feint a tick and use a low attack, and so on. There are options which are not being used, and this gives an edge in high level play against people who do use them. If you use the character to its fullest potential, the only way you will lose is because the enemy played right. By forcing them to play right, you level up yourself.
OK, enough with my scrubby thoughts and (yet another) thread hijacking.
hey guys don’t know if this clears anything up but from first hand experiences…
- yes that account w/ the ~n at the end really is Nohoho’s account, i was w/ him the entire 6 days and he even mentioned it to me
- it will be interesting to see Seth’s explanation. from watching the finals matches and from playing a few other Dee Jay’s throughout the week in casuals we saw nothing real new for him, it was like playing American Dee Jay’s except way better spacing and execution
- yes the power of Gunze is incredible, BEAST MODE! he is amazing to say the least and a very charismatic guy, i like it
Thanks for the feedback, dude!
It is interesting to hear about Gunze, cos some months ago, someone (NH2?) posted that when Otochun’s crew were playing HDR, no-one could beat him. I guess the issue there is Gunze, even though Gief is definitely stronger in that game.
gunze is a beast hands down
is pony still playing? any vids of sbo ;_;?
pony is still playing.
I don’t think that’s completely fair to say. WW -> CE -> HF -> SSF2 -> ST happened pretty quickly. It just seems so long ago. If anything the old-school games were patched more. HF added a lot of new moves for characters, ST added supers, and all of the alpha games play remarkably different. It’s the long break in between that makes it feel like the old games were allowed to grow and the new games are just constant updates to milk our money.
That said, the old games also relied on a lot more fundamentals. Also, technical exploits like option-selects, kara-canels, etc. were both much more obscure and less applicable overall to most characters in the old games. IMO, that is the primary reason why the older games can continue to grow over the years. The newer games still have growth left, but it feels a bit different than the classics.
I just want to say a quick special shoutout to Indiana’s own Immortal for being apart of an SBO team that made it past the first round. It’s a huge accomplishment and thanks particularly to you for reppin’ the Hoosier State in Japan!
Also, can anyone explain to me why he qualified with T. Hawk instead of Ken? I mean yes, his T. Hawk IS Godlike, but so is his Ken… has he just been hardcore in the lab with that T. Hawk technology and felt it was the best option for the SBO team? Just curious, but congratulations for reppin’ the USA in ST and showing that we’re not completely free at everything. COUGH COUGH SF4 COUGH COUGH
Damdai?
I heard him say he feels hawk is his best chance at winning.
-trolls suck-
With the exception of adding new characters, all the different versions of sf4 are just really just patches (changing frame data / nerfing hitboxes)
While like you said, almost all of the sf2 versions are different. They add new characters, give character new moves, adding new mechanics, etc.
They are similar (your fundamental still applies) but quite different games.
SSF2 is certainly dead, but China still play CE/WW. Not sure about HF though.
In that regard, HDR is very similar to SF4 patches (except we don’t get new characters).
Hi immortal,
So you’re back? I thought nh2 & co are still in japan.
From nh2’s blog it seems like you guys were having great, great times.
That makes me so jelly.
great work taking out one of the teams though!
Waiting for japan logs from team USA , Nh2 and cough cough shirts.
I think I read somewhere that he REALLY enjoys playing the hawk and that he has the most fun doing so out of the entire cast.