Tiers for non-fighting games?

Classic Fighting Games Other Games
1621

Well tiering a character based on their usefulness throughout the game is more relevant to a person’s interest. Who cares if Vincent can do all this crazy stuff if he sucks throughout most of the game? If I saw your list and used that to determine my characters to use in the game, I would be massively disappointed in Vincent. And also, Barret can do the same glitch as well through massive materia bonuses and OHKO everything. He’s also the only character who can naturally reach 9999 HP. He should definitely be higher than Cid even if you didn’t know that Barret could accomplish the same glitch, since you forgot to take into account that Angermax is a level 3, and Highwind is a level 4. If you want to argue for JUST potential, then Cait Sith should be high instead of low, since you have the POTENTIAL to always hit Game Over on his slots. Perfect timing can get around the game trying to screw you out of it. Yuffie’s conformer being better than the Ultima Weapon isn’t the major reason for her being better than Cloud in extreme endgame setups, its that Doom of the Living is a level 3 instead of 4. Red XIII should be higher than Tifa, since Stardust Ray hits 10 times, and Tifa’s limits can only go up to 7 hits, and Stardust Ray is a level 2 limit compared to level 4.

So, the list should be something more like:
God:
Vincent
Barret

Top:
Cait Sith
Cid

Middle:
Yuffie
Cloud

Low:
Red XIII
Tifa
Aeris

However, you’ve forgotten one very important thing. At extreme endgame, you should have enough Knights of the Rounds and W-Magics to give to every character. Meaning that only Barret and Vincent still remain better than everyone else, since they remain the only characters able to pull off insta-kills through overflow. Otherwise, everyone else just W-Summons KoTR. So the true list for endgame is:

Top:
Vincent
Barret

Not top:
Everyone else

Ayla has good things going for her besides overpowered 9999 damage. Slurp Kiss is incredibly awesome cheap and effective MT healing throughout the entire game, and Falcon Hit is absurdly powerful.

Tidus IS better than Wakka for most of the game. Its only when you’re trying to tackle super bosses when you really need to use Wakka’s Attack Reels to deal the damage needed before you die. But Yuna beats them all since she can Zanmato everything.

1622

+1

nothing like using a flaming sword to smite entire villages

1623

I use it to mete out burning justice across the Wastes.

1624

I personally like to teach people with the board of education. I just wish I can mod my 360 so I can teach those damn lamplight kids a lesson:sad::sad::sad:.

1625

End game is the best option for rpg’s like VII or for most rpg’s for that matter, again, this would mean, we would have to revamp everything for a tier listing. Also, it would be rather retarded not to do so, because are you really using characters to their potential (even glitch included).

I agree with some of your points, however I’ve never seen anyone use Caith Sith to perfection, that shit can get random anytime, no matter how you try to put it, and stating that as a potential is a joke, because of it’s randomness (nobody can be perfect), however on the other characters cases. Their potential is 10x more consistent and far more reliable, he’s nowhere near you are making him out to be, unless you can provide a link showing me you can consistently do Game Over. It’s not just that Yuffie’s Conformer is better, however she doesn’t have the Ultima Weapon handicap, which makes her better then Cloud. Cid at the end, is better then Barret, due to having better natural criticals. Also, being a Lvl 3 limit to Lvl 4 is pretty pointless, considering does it even matter at the end? Your tier listing is whacked out on some few things, but a few I can agree upon, Vincent is on his own pedestal however, his potential is way too broke.

On CT with Ayla she is nowhere near Top-Tier if she didn’t have 9999 damage capability, considering how many people use dual “techs” at the end? Slurp Kiss is useless considering you have Robo’s Heal which does the exact samething, however it only requires one character, not to mention you don’t need to have shitty Frog in the team to take up a spot. Also Falcon Strike??? Seriously who uses dual or triple techs at the end? In the end, your team usually consist of Chrono, Robo, Ayla, w/ Ayla being switched out for Lucca if you want more AoE potential.

Without her natural critical and 9999 damage, she’s mediocrity period, however due to this, she gets mentioned amongst the likes of Chrono and Robo.

Also, Tidus “is” better then Wakka, at the beginning, however he loses out at the end. Fighting the super bosses is the central point of tiering the FFX list, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to do so since everyone dishes out 99999 at the end. Yuna indeed is the #1 overall best character with Zanamoto (I’ve stated this earlier in this thread already), however Tidus drops down to either 3rd or 4th, depending upon how good you are with Lulu’s rotations.

Tiering characters “during the walk through” for these rpg’s is pointless, because at the end, it completely changes, hell Khimari is actually good during the walk through, however he’s a joke at the end-game results. I’ll say this again, some rpg’s are too difficult to tier at the end, because everyone becomes insanely powerful, however in games like VII, VIII or X, etc, etc where you can multi-hit in one attack, or 1-Hit KO people, that changes everything.

1626

Did you not even read the thing where Barret can do the same insta kill glitch that Vincent can? That’s what puts Barret over Cid the most. If Barret and Cid had identical limit breaks and one got one faster, the one who gets it faster is obviously better. And at endgame, Highwind and Angermax are essentially the same (both always do 18x9999 damage) so the one which is gotten faster is better.

According to the game mechanics guide on Gamefaqs, it claims that you can stop the reels perfectly at any time, even if the game is trying against you, but its just very difficult. Otherwise, it’s every 64 seconds.

And also, all the character’s potentials ARE THE SAME except for Vincent and Barret (who have the overflow glitches). Why? Because they can all do 26x9999 damage with W-Summon and KoTR. Why even use limits when you have something better? There are only 3 enemies in the game that can survive double KoTR as well. Fully powered Safer Sephiroth, and the two weapons. Safer is a joke anyway, Ruby can be destroyed by anyone with W-Summon Hades and KoTR. This leaves only Emerald where Vincent and Barret stand out, as they’re the only ones with something special that they can do against him (and possibly Cait Sith game over).

Ultima Weapon deals 3X damage if Cloud’s at full HP and decreases as Cloud’s HP goes down. He has to be at 33% health for it to do ‘normal’ damage, and at half health, its still 1.5 damage. So yeah, that is a disadvantage against Yuffie’s almost always fully powered Conformer. But the real question is why are you doing a normal physical attack with Cloud or Yuffie when KoTR is so much better?

This is why people usually make a distinction between an endgame tier list and a ‘walkthrough’ tier list, since they are usually so different. Endgame lists are pretty much pointless, since they only cover the last like 5% of the game or so (and most RPGs let you get so broken that nearly everyone is identical).

Oh, and Ayla makes the party top tier too, since she’s the one stealing most of the tabs for you.

Even if everyone dishes out 99999 damage at the end of the game, you can still make small distinctions in the party members of FFX not even against the superbosses. Like who can do more than 99999 damage under special conditions, who can contribute mass protection to the party if you need it, who can debilitate the enemy in one shot so they can’t hurt you, etc. For example? Who’s the best person to have in your party in the NTSC version of FFX while roaming the final dungeons? Its Auron because his ultimate weapon gives you first strike, which saves you from Marlboro’s ambushing you.

1627

I’ll concede on some remarks about VII, (I still disagree on Cloud, because again, that’s still a handicap, and still something to watch out for, Yuffie is still 10x more consistent which is why she will always be better then Cloud). The Cait Sith statement, either prove it or drop it, again, who in the hell is going to try and perfect it? Hell, Magneto in MvC2 has the potential to kill a single character in 3-seconds (probably besides Sentinel, it would take probably 4-5 seconds for him) however who can do it consistently? If you can show that it can be done consistently with Cait Sith, I will agree, however until then, he’s at the bottom of the barrel, theory on paper doesn’t mean anything if it’s not being shown with a level of consistency.

As for the end game comment it is the only way to tier, because you are breaking the game down to find their potentials. That’s like playing a game like SFII by simply going through and beating the cpu, or getting to a moderate lvl and conceding that this is as far as you need to go to break the game down, which doesn’t make any sense. Again, scroll through this entire thread, and see how many “rpg’s” are tier based on the walk through, and only a few will be found with exceptions, while the rest are end-game “5%” Tiers as you supposedly call it.

That doesn’t do jack shit for her being Top-Tier, if we went by your notion then Marle would be Top-Tier as well, because with her and Ayla they can Dual-Kiss and that’s basically 100% success instead of there being a failure rate.

So if we include Kiss, and without the capability to deal out 9999 damage what in the world does she have that other characters can do 10x better then her? Hell, even Magus is better then Ayla now due to the fact that Magus still has Dark Matter which is better then everything else Ayla has. In fact, without the cap damage that she can do end-game, Lucca and Magus jump ahead of her (Since Lucca will deal more damage then her psychically and she has Flare which is one of the best AoE’s in the entire game, and Magus with DM+ his Doomsickle allows him 2.2k damage potential), and obviously Chrono and Robo at the top. In comparison to them, her tech’s overall are garbage, while her final tech is a joke.

Kiss is not a reason why she’s good, it’s just a small situational small bright part for when she’s her end-game maxed capped damage monster, thus another huge reason why most people usually don’t tier rpg’s during a “walk through”.

When you’ve fully complete the sphere grid, maxing everyone out, with them all being able to utilize all of the magic etc, etc. The differential is so minuscule that it doesn’t even really matter anymore. Regardless of the situation, the way you are emphasizing tiers is pointless because at the end, the best characters are still the characters who can multi-hit in one turn or 1-hit KO mobs for free in FFX.

I can’t comment on the International FFX, because I haven’t played that one.

1628

In terms of tiering RPGs, I feel there needs to be a good balance between normal gameplay and looking at potential.

The main problem I have with looking at RPG characters at their peek is that if you are looking everyone at their peek, then they ALL should be tearing shit up in the first place, thus, making tiers very meaningless, as everyone will achieve the same pure destruction. The thing is, tiering RPGs must be taken at a different approach from, as you are tiering a one-player game, and I feel that one must tier based on who will be the best overall use to the player.

1629
  1. Wakka
  2. Tidus
  3. Rikku
  4. Yuna
  5. Lulu
  6. Kimahri
  7. Auron

You’re welcome.

1630

This only makes sense in certain rpg’s, however there are cases where this is not so. Take Final Fantasy X for example, when Wakka can strike a single character for 12x for 99,999 damage each, that’s a significant difference to that and anyone else.

Another game like Final Fantasy VIII, where Zell can dish out 500,000+ damage per turn with his Beat Rush and Booya combo allows him to surpass any other VIII character by a vast mile, I mean, Squall is 2nd in line and he can only dish around 220,000 damage and that’s if he does 7-hits with Renzozuken before Lionheart. These are huge differentials that simply cannot be ignored you would have to tier at the end game potential, because in one-turn, other characters simply over prioritize on their overall damage potential in comparison to others. I mean, would you consider Quistis who can’t deal out thsi amount of damage to be as good as Squall or Zell are? I surely wouldn’t.

However as I stated earlier, certain rpg’s like FF VI for example, are hard to tier end-game wise, due to the fact that everyone can and will be dishing out 9999 damage, however more importantly that game does not have multi-hitting limit’s like later FF games as well. Of course you have a few exceptions with the characters, like Locke with Genji-Glove+offering (Ultima Weapon+Valiant Knife ='s Killer), etc, etc. However the majority of that cast becomes incredibly difficult to tier.

So I agree on a “few” rpg’s it’s almost mute to gauge a tier list at end-game potential, however the ones we are talking about (VII, X, CT, etc, etc), the end game potential is the only way to tier them, due to the fact there are dramatic shifts between characters from “walk through” to their max.

1631

You’re going in a circle here. You’re saying we tier units on endgame potential because we tier units on endgame potential. While I’m not arguing that a tier list can be created for the endgame, I’m saying that it’s infinitely more useful to have one that displays how well characters can do throughout the game, even if they change.

While characters may change from walkthrough to walkthrough, you can assume basically a fair standard to compare everyone to. So, if in one playthrough we use Chrono, Ayla, and Robo, they’re obviously going to be better than everyone else that you’re not using. For a tier list, you just imagine every possible scenario at that point in time and work with that. So if those three are level 20 at one point in the game, then you can just work with a level 20 Frog and Marle instead and see how they do, despite them not actually being there. This requires a lot of work and calculation and usually takes a very long time to work out compared to endgame lists.

If all the tier lists for RPGs in this thread are done for the last 5%, they’re done for the last 5%. Not much else to say about that.

I would actually argue Rinoa over Squall for 2nd place, since you can tweak Angel Wing to do everything for you and actually let the game play itself after you’ve activated Angel Wing and toss a Hero on her. Don’t even have to worry about screwing up any limits (and Lionheart isn’t guaranteed).

The Ayla thing was a joke.

FFVI isn’t that difficult actually. At end game levels, the base power of everyone is Utlimax2. This puts Gogo and Umaro at lower tiers since they can’t do that (Gogo has no esper bonuses). People who can do more than 2*9999 damage are better. This includes Cyan and Locke. Cyan has 2x quadra slice, and Locke has his two defense ignoring weapons (ignoring offering since that’s one of a kind). I haven’t run the damage calculations, but Gogo might be able to surpass 2x Ultima with 2x Quadra Slice. Then you move onto things that are unique to each character that actually matter. Gau has something special in Nightshade’s Charm, which charms EVERYTHING in the game (including bosses), so he’s above average. So the endgame list would probably look something like:

Top:
Cyan/Locke (depends on who you give the offering to)

High:
Gau

Middle:
Everyone else

Low:
Umaro

With Gogo somewhere in there.

NTSC isn’t International. International version has ribbon, hence why you don’t need Auron anymore to avoid Marlboros.

1632

i could have sworn i was subscribed to this thread…

1633

If you’re talking about the original FF3 (SNES), then Gogo is definitely not low. Like Gau, he has access to Scratchcat and Wind God equipment which is definitely as good or better than Ultimax2 even without Esper bonuses.

1634

Tiering is based on how good they could be if you play them at their fullest, which is why I disagree on your walkthrough tier statement, because during walk through, your not even using the characters at their potential. See where we disagree? You act as if I run in circles but I think it’s more of we have different view sets, however I’ll talk about this later…

I know Rinoa very well with Angel Wing, however I was using Squall to Zell as a damage differential. However unless I’m mistaken, if you just obtain Revolver to Lionheart, doesn’t he just switch between the two because your only jumping from Revolver to Lionheart and I remember just as long as you don’t get the other blades then he won’t jump randomly to use the others as well besides these two. Someone needs to confirm this since I haven’t played VIII in ages, so I can’t remember to well on here. However, I would still push Squall above Rinoa anyhow, 220,000+ damage is way too hard to ignore.

Better be, nobody in their right mind would preach Ayla that high for “kiss” :confused:.

It can be heatly debated, yes, Locke and Cyan can do the 8x 9999 damage, however most mobs don’t even need to be touched by that much in order to die (Unless your playing the DS version with the Dragons). However with Two VI games, you would have different tiers, in one like the DS, the stated above tiering makes more viable sense, however in the original VI, doing multi-damaging hits isn’t a huge advantage whatsoever.

Yet, everything I said about FF X is true, that damage differential between one turn with characters make the biggest difference. Again, I understand where you are coming from, however I find it mute when at the end, your fighting the hardest mobs, when usually, that’s where true qualities of these characters are shown.

Auron being able to avoid Marlboros is a nice touch, however to rank him as a high character for such a thing is ridiculous, again that’s one “part”. Nina can cast away mobs in BoFII without any problems, however it doesn’t take from the fact that when you have to actually use her to fight, that she pales in comparison to many of the others.

The problem I have with your belief, is that with your inclination we would have to do two tiers, meaning one for walk through and one for end-game results. To me, end-game results matter more, because usually that’s where the most powerful “mobs” are at, and that’s where you can truly differentiate the best from the worst.

However, I’ll just agree to disagree, since I’m sick and tired of having to debate this any longer, if you feel that you “must” have a tier for walk through, go for it.

1635

This is like the same debate-redux 4 years ago, circa 2005. It looks like things still haven’t changed.

I think the problem Hyper Inferno has (and I had 4 years ago) with your ideology, TrueSephorith, is your insistence that your “end game/max-stat/full potential” RPG tiering is the only and best way to tier an RPG, when that is really not the case. Your tiering neglects the very large portion of a character’s performance throughout the game leading up to the end-game overleveling/max-stats.

For a lot of people, how well a character was doing for 95% of the game actually means something. Take an extreme example: ChuChu in Xenogears. Most people would agree that she is the worst character in the game. She has poor stats, poor “Gear” form, and extremely low damage potential. However, go insane at the end and purchase trillion of dollars worth of stat-increases, and she “potentially” can have the highest stats of all characters. Does that make her top tier? You insist that endgame full-potential tiering takes into account all the intricacies of the character when in reality, it is just one way (and a very narrow way at that) to look at the game.

I think your RPG full-potential tier and Fighting game full-potential tier analogy has always been flawed. The context of fighting game character tiers are fundamentally different, just based solely on the mechanics that fighting games require 2 human controlled characters competing against one another to win. RPGs are single player games with a vastly different game engine and goal. Tiering a fighting game character at full potential under human control vs. another human is different than tiering a “full potential” RPG character vs. CPU control enemies.

I believe SkyeElemental put it best in his reply:
*"In terms of tiering RPGs, I feel there needs to be a good balance between normal gameplay and looking at potential.

The main problem I have with looking at RPG characters at their peek is that if you are looking everyone at their peek, then they ALL should be tearing shit up in the first place, thus, making tiers very meaningless, as everyone will achieve the same pure destruction. The thing is, tiering RPGs must be taken at a different approach from, as you are tiering a one-player game, and I feel that one must tier based on who will be the best overall use to the player."*

In RPGs, there are many ways to tier characters, and the value of the tier list depends on one’s personal views of what is important in each game.

1636

Are you serious with bringing this shit up once more?

Who on here besides you would disagree on what has been stated about the games we’ve been discussing? In fact, even outside of here, most would agree with what has been stated here. I even took the luxury of saying that there are certain rpg’s out there in which tiering the full potential of characters would be near obsolete due to the fact at the end, it’s incredibly difficult to do so.

The fact of matter is this, trying to follow skyelemental’s ideal would make no sense to many rpg’s because for CT’s sake, Ayla is mediocrity throughout the entire phase of CT, until she hits lvl 97. So with her tier would you place her Middle to Top then? That’s just absolute garbage, since when does any rpg should have “two tiers” considered.

We had this debate pertaining only to Final Fantasy VI, which now, I agree is difficult to tier correctly with the full potential notion. Due to the fact everyone is power knocking at ridiculous lengths, however you add in FF VII, where some characters can hit 15-18 hits in one single turn while others simply cannot, or in FFX where a character can 1-hit KO any mob in the entire game, then obviously these changes thing.

FF VII, VIII, X, CT, ShingingForce, etc, etc all change dramatically at end game potential, so please, stop acting like your right.

I believe I’ve made the effort on stating that certain rpg’s cannot follow this philosophy, however there are those, which clearly can, and thus are tiered that way. Gosh forbid some srkers just don’t want to listen anymore.

1637

Your arrogance and inflexibility to view anyone else’s opinions as valid other than your own hasn’t changed in 4 years.

Many RPGs have multiple tiers associated with them. A lot of times they are tiered as normal play and post-game tiers. The fact that you somehow need to express some sort of rage and throw a temper tantrum when posters are hesitant to accept your notion of “one absolute tier per game” just shows your immaturity.

While our previous discussion dealt only with FF6, the overall idea that RPGs can have multiple tiers seems to be a concept that you just flat out refuse to acknowledge. Why can’t FF7, FF8, FFX, Chrono Trigger have 2 different tiers? One based on normal playthrough, and one based on maxed stats when everything else poses no difficulty? So Ayla can hit for 9999 at level 97. The fact that she was mediocre for 96 levels before means nothing? What about Breath of Fire 2? Jean is pretty much garbage in that game. However, take hours and hours of your time to cook stat up items, and then he’s one of the best. So why can’t BoF2 be tiered both as normal play through and at max stats?

You’re so adamant about only having one tier per game, that you fail to realize that’s only one way to view things, and not always the best. Not everyone cares if a character can hit for 9999 against enemies that don’t matter anymore when the same said character had sucked for the majority of the game. Is it against some law that an RPG cannot have multiple tiers associated with it? One during normal gameplay, and one at obsessively high, inconsequential top levels? Who made you into the RPG tier police?

By the way, when a point has lacks meaning in a debate, it’s a “moot” point, not mute.

1638

SRK.com “Tiers for non-fighting games?” thread tiers

Top Tier: Lobelia Prime
High Tier: EmblemLord, Fir, Return of Shiki
Middle Tier: pizzacat83, Musourenka, roninwarrior24, Remy Saotome, Tech Romancer, DIMMU SAKURABA
Low Tier: DaBoss, js2756, box, G.O.T
Bottom Tier: Everyone else
Whine at each other like four-year-old girls about Final Fantasy VII Tier(aka Shitty Usernames Tier, aka Bitch Made Tier): Strike, TrueSephiroth

1639

The battle system in FF7 is so retardedly simple and broken that it is barely worth even one post about its tiers. Much less this many.

1640

…Why am I on that tier list?

I didn’t post anything about FF tiers (I don’t play those games)