Tiers for non-fighting games?

[TrueSephiroth]

What’s garbage is you resurrecting the argument again after more than two months has already passed. We’re just arguing two different things. You seem to think a tier listing of level 99 FFVI god-characters has actual meaning and that ideally one should only judge the characters at that calibur. I’ve repeatedly said that it’s fine to do so, but my main point was a tier listing such as that would have little actual merit or worth. At that point, nothing poses a challenge to you. The end result of Locke hitting for 9999 x8 is essentially the same as any other character hitting 9999 x4; as either would be overkill. The analogy I tried to show you was tiering which of these methods: atom bomb, missile, tank, gun is most useful in killing a ant? Sure, one could easily make a case for the most destructive weapon, similarly to how you keep insisting on the greatness of Locke 9999 x8. But the bigger picture is that a tiering at that point is ridiculous in and of itself. There’s never only one “proper” way to tier an RPG, especially one like FF6. Do you take Esper bonuses into account? Do you take Merit Award into account? Do you take glitches into account? Tiering at 99 is the easier, but it’s not very informative, and it’s definitely not the only way to tier that game.

On doing damage quickly, if that’s a reference to Locke’s “speed” being some sort of superior asset in FFVI, I have already extensively covered why Locke’s speed is quite overrated. Active Time Battle takes into account battle animation, and thus while Locke may have the chance to strike first, unless you purposely take time out and power-level, Locke isn’t doing anything spectacular that first strike that someone else couldn’t do better just 1 or 2 seconds later. And anyone who thinks Locke’s high speed is going to allow him to “lap” other characters in battle and gain extra turns really doesn’t know how the battle system of FFVI works.

Your analysis on the multi-hitting attacks of FFVII+ in comparison to FFVI is flawed. See, while Cloud is doing Ominslash for 9999 x15; Squall’s Lionheart doing 9999 x20-something; Tidus/Wakka/Passedo doing 9999 x whatever, in those games, there are eneimes with HP values in the millions. These multihitting attacks are good because a lot of these enemies require several of these heavy damage dealing attacks, and thus a combination of good speed + powerful multihitting attack = good in THOSE games. In contrast to FFVI, no enemy has HP into the millions. Kefka, the last boss, has the most at what, 64K? No other regular enemies comes even close. Most barely have their HP breaking the 30K mark. Locke hitting for 9999 x8 (near 80000 damage) isn’t much different than Setzer hitting for 9999 x4… the end result will be the same. Plus your tiering neglects pretty much on how the characters faired throughout the entire game. Your tier listing is more of an endgame, obsessive power-level ranking. If you want to rank FFVI on who provides the most overkill, I’m sure your tier listing is the best choice. My only criticism is, and always was, that a tier such as that is essentially pointless.

Actually, if you read my past post, I did take glitches into account, however someone…cough you…said that “glitches where bs and shouldn’t be used for tiering.” :lame: , so sit down and stfu. One other thing that I’ll point out again, the reason for the tiering of the individuality of characters is pretty much bs, is because of the glitches and what not, things like vanish/x-zone make any character’s abilities useless…if I remember correctly, where you not the one who stated you got to the world of ruin on lvl 6, and if so, that definetly was not because of a specific characters “abilities”, but abusing glitches to achieve this.

I will agree with you, FFVI can be tiered in many ways, “if” we went by your standards, then the tier listings would be correct, this is if we didn’t abuse any of the glitches as well, however if we are going at full potential, then mine would stand corrected. The reason for the glitches, esper bonuses etc, full potential are the sole reasons why “character individuality” in FFVI is pointless, because they dethrone anything that makes that particular character “effective”…if my memory serves me correctly, you get some of the best glitches fairly early within the game, that already mutes any character individuality useless, and in the end, why bother realizing character individuality when you have something like genji glove/offering combo, see my point?

Btw, Kainzero, thank’s for the video, you have proven me wrong about FFVII, I shall need to try that myself now

[Strike]

Actually, if you read my past post, I did take glitches into account, however someone…cough you…said that “glitches where bs and shouldn’t be used for tiering.” :lame: , so sit down and stfu. One other thing that I’ll point out again, the reason for the tiering of the individuality of characters is pretty much bs, is because of the glitches and what not, things like vanish/x-zone make any character’s abilities useless…if I remember correctly, where you not the one who stated you got to the world of ruin on lvl 6, and if so, that definetly was not because of a specific characters “abilities”, but abusing glitches to achieve this.

I will agree with you, FFVI can be tiered in many ways, “if” we went by your standards, then the tier listings would be correct, this is if we didn’t abuse any of the glitches as well, however if we are going at full potential, then mine would stand corrected. The reason for the glitches, esper bonuses etc, full potential are the sole reasons why “character individuality” in FFVI is pointless, because they dethrone anything that makes that particular character “effective”…if my memory serves me correctly, you get some of the best glitches fairly early within the game, that already mutes any character individuality useless, and in the end, why bother realizing character individuality when you have something like genji glove/offering combo, see my point?

Btw, Kainzero, thank’s for the video, you have proven me wrong about FFVII, I shall need to try that myself now

Man are you like retarded? First, I read your post and you mention nothing about glitches. Second, I made no mention at all about using any glitches when I played a low level game, and in fact I didn’t. So your assumption that I’m contradicting myself by speaking against tiering taking game breaking glitches into account while using them myself is both wrong and stupid. By the assumption that you think the only possible way to survive the game at low levels is through using glitches; by the way it looks like you enjoy overleveling to the point of obsessiveness; and by the way you continue to completely overrate and misunderstand the use of Locke’s speed in battles; I’d guess that you really don’t know much about the game.

By your standards, since everyone can use Vanish/X-Zone; almost everyone can use Esper bonuses to manipulate their stats; almost everyone can use the Merit Award and equip things they aren’t supposed to; why even make a tier listing at all? My point is very simple, and it’s kinda sad that you keep missing it: You tier list of Level 99 characters is a useless list. You’re tiering solely based on who provides the most overkill (and incorrectly compared it to the high dealing attacks of future FF games). Your list totally neglects any account on how a character has performed throughout the game since you only focus on endgame, overleveled potential. I didn’t say my tier listing was the only way to view things; it seems in contrast that you’re making the bold claim that your way is the only “correct” way to tier FF6, which I disagree with and you seem to have a problem with anyone who doesn’t see it your way. The point was that my tier list was probably more practical and relevant to how good a character really does play without taking hours aside leveling to godhood and removing any challenge from the game.

If you still don’t get that, then that’s pathetic. :tdown:

[TrueSephiroth]

Man are you like retarded? First, I read your post and you mention nothing about glitches. Second, I made no mention at all about using any glitches when I played a low level game, and in fact I didn’t. So your assumption that I’m contradicting myself by speaking against tiering taking game breaking glitches into account while using them myself is both wrong and stupid. By the assumption that you think the only possible way to survive the game at low levels is through using glitches; by the way it looks like you enjoy overleveling to the point of obsessiveness; and by the way you continue to completely overrate and misunderstand the use of Locke’s speed in battles; I’d guess that you really don’t know much about the game.

By your standards, since everyone can use Vanish/X-Zone; almost everyone can use Esper bonuses to manipulate their stats; almost everyone can use the Merit Award and equip things they aren’t supposed to; why even make a tier listing at all? My point is very simple, and it’s kinda sad that you keep missing it: You tier list of Level 99 characters is a useless list. You’re tiering solely based on who provides the most overkill (and incorrectly compared it to the high dealing attacks of future FF games). Your list totally neglects any account on how a character has performed throughout the game since you only focus on endgame, overleveled potential. I didn’t say my tier listing was the only way to view things; it seems in contrast that you’re making the bold claim that your way is the only “correct” way to tier FF6, which I disagree with and you seem to have a problem with anyone who doesn’t see it your way. The point was that my tier list was probably more practical and relevant to how good a character really does play without taking hours aside leveling to godhood and removing any challenge from the game.

If you still don’t get that, then that’s pathetic. :tdown:

If you read further back, I told you that character individuality meant garbage at the beginning, because you where stating about the powerful magic capabilities of characters, however, I said “Why use that when you have vanish/x-zone, tatic.” which is a drums rolling Glitch:tup: . However, you stated, that it was stupid to put that into the argument, and shouldn’t be counted as playing the game “right”:rolleyes:. You speak of character individuality as if it’s actually “useful”, but just how useful is it and how long does it last, pratically almost all of the characters usefulness becomes mute by the time you can start abusing some of the game breaking glitches, and mind you, you can abuse these glitches all the way until the end of the game, and by the time you get near the end of the game, character individuality is mute, because you are right, everyone takes off “Overpowered like damage”. If you don’t like it, well, then, it truly sucks, but that’s how it goes within the end.

It’s not that I don’t see your point, I understand it very well, your speaking of character individuality is useful for a time being, but that doesn’t last very long at all, your trying to state it at a “not-full potential” view, I’m stating it at “full potential” I guess we are both looking at the coin on different views, I’m not trying to say my way is the best way, however I don’t understand the fact of you trying to state that character individuality is so important when, I can just tell people that vanish/x-zone tatics own everysingle character “individuality” there is, and in the end, genji-glove/offering combo beats out anyting period, and you can actually get a genji-glove fairly early within the game, I believe when you talk to Baron, instead of saying yes, you say no, about two or three times, one of the most powerful equips at nearly not even 10% through the game…the only part where I see character individuality playing a key role, is at the first 25% of the game or even less than that, after that, it’s pointless to even state it:encore: .

[SSJ_Hibiki]

I know you guys have covered Star Ocean 3 before, but what is the most broken shit in that game? I just picked up a GH version of the game and am about a quarter into disc 2. It seems like Aiming Device(aka AHVB on the ground) and Side Kick are the broken moves of the game, at least to some extent.

[Strike]

Actually, if you read my past post, I did take glitches into account, however someone…cough you…said that “glitches where bs and shouldn’t be used for tiering.” :lame: , so sit down and stfu.

When you say “past post,” I was assuming you referred to your most recent past post (singular), which offered no comments on glitches.

If you read further back, I told you that character individuality meant garbage at the beginning, because you where stating about the powerful magic capabilities of characters, however, I said “Why use that when you have vanish/x-zone, tatic.” which is a drums rolling Glitch . However, you stated, that it was stupid to put that into the argument, and shouldn’t be counted as playing the game “right”. You speak of character individuality as if it’s actually “useful”, but just how useful is it and how long does it last, pratically almost all of the characters usefulness becomes mute by the time you can start abusing some of the game breaking glitches, and mind you, you can abuse these glitches all the way until the end of the game, and by the time you get near the end of the game, character individuality is mute, because you are right, everyone takes off “Overpowered like damage”. If you don’t like it, well, then, it truly sucks, but that’s how it goes within the end.

I speak of character individuality and magic in the context of a game where one does not purposely take a detour of several hours to overzealously overlevel to the point that all battles become irrelevant. These things don’t become moot if one where to play the game ‘normally,’ not abusing Vanish/Doom, not taking hours upon hours leveling up at Dinosaur Forest… in other words not when the game has become an utter joke. I’m not denying that these things don’t exist. I’m not advocating that people shouldn’t use them. I’m simply saying that a tier list that takes glitches and overleveling into account does not say much. It would basically be:

Top Tier: Vanish/Doom, Level 99 characters
Bottom Tier: everything else

I’m not arguing that it’s a wrong tier list; I’m arguing that it is a stupid tier list.

It’s not that I don’t see your point, I understand it very well, your speaking of character individuality is useful for a time being, but that doesn’t last very long at all, your trying to state it at a “not-full potential” view, I’m stating it at “full potential” I guess we are both looking at the coin on different views, I’m not trying to say my way is the best way, however I don’t understand the fact of you trying to state that character individuality is so important when, I can just tell people that vanish/x-zone tatics own everysingle character “individuality” there is, and in the end, genji-glove/offering combo beats out anyting period, and you can actually get a genji-glove fairly early within the game, I believe when you talk to Baron, instead of saying yes, you say no, about two or three times, one of the most powerful equips at nearly not even 10% through the game…the only part where I see character individuality playing a key role, is at the first 25% of the game or even less than that, after that, it’s pointless to even state it .

Actually, it looks as if you repeatedly miss my point because I’m not arguing about tiering based on character individuality alone. I’m mainly pointing out that a tier listing of FF6 at “full potential” (Level 99, max esper stats, vanish/doom taken into account) would be a dumb list. Would you agree to that much? You claim that you’re not saying your views of FF6’s tiering is the best, and yet you are so adamantly against tiering the game any other way. You haven’t really addressed my point earlier about how your comparsion to FF6’s multihitting 9999 to future FF’s multihitting 9999 attacks is a flawed analogy. I’ve never seen you ever try to attempt to counter how I explained why Locke’s speed and how the ATB battle system really works, other than just insisting that you were right and I was wrong. From what I see, it just looks like you can’t handle or don’t like hearing any other opinion that differs from your own, and would rather just rely on repetitive insistance that you were right all along to defend your argument.

[Strike]

I know you guys have covered Star Ocean 3 before, but what is the most broken shit in that game? I just picked up a GH version of the game and am about a quarter into disc 2. It seems like Aiming Device(aka AHVB on the ground) and Side Kick are the broken moves of the game, at least to some extent.

The most broken things in that game are:

1. Boots of Prowess
2. Oricalcum

The most broken character is Maria.

The most broken moves are probably:

1. Aiming Device --> Energy Burst combo (Maria)
2. Aiming Device --> Scatter Beam or Scatter Beam --> Scatter Beam combo (Maria)
3. Thunder Flare x N or Explosion X N stun combos (Sophia)

[box]

The thing you have to realize is that some weapons like Atma cannot be fully realized until they reach level 99. Therefore if you’re tiering at half potential… then some weapons and accessories are thrown out of the equation because they are not fully utilized. At full potential, tiering takes every single aspect of the game into account.

Anyhow, I don’t see anything wrong with either list. Strike’s tiering list is for the practical FF6 gamer while Seph’s tiering list is for the hardcore FF6 gamer.

Has anyone made a tier list for MK Shaolin Monks yet? I only played as 3 characters and I never tried the VS mode yet.

[SSJ_Hibiki]

The most broken things in that game are:

1. Boots of Prowess
2. Oricalcum

The most broken character is Maria.

The most broken moves are probably:

1. Aiming Device --> Energy Burst combo (Maria)
2. Aiming Device --> Scatter Beam or Scatter Beam --> Scatter Beam combo (Maria)
3. Thunder Flare x N or Explosion X N stun combos (Sophia)

My god… I’m starting to hear Maria say “Aiming Device” in my head now

How do I go about making Oricalcum and Boots of Prowess? Haven’t been able to get a concrete answer.

[Strike]

Anyhow, I don’t see anything wrong with either list. Strike’s tiering list is for the practical FF6 gamer while Seph’s tiering list is for the hardcore FF6 gamer.

Probably the best way to describe the situation.

The thing you have to realize is that some weapons like Atma cannot be fully realized until they reach level 99. Therefore if you’re tiering at half potential… then some weapons and accessories are thrown out of the equation because they are not fully utilized. At full potential, tiering takes every single aspect of the game into account.

The thing is, this statement makes it sound like a level 99 tiering takes 'everything into account, when that’s not true. Both lists neglect things. My list did not take into account glitches, vanish/doom, or powerleveling; but it did take into account progressing through the game from beginnging to end. TrueSephiroth’s list is a tiering of endgame power after an extreme amount of leveling that is going way beyond what is necessary to win the game. It’s neglecting how well a character has done throughout the game; and neglects the fact that powerleveling breaks the game anyway. Wouldn’t you agree that a tier list of level 99 characters is more about who provides the most overkill by the end of the game? Say you’re facing a boss with 30000 HP. A level 99 Locke hits it for 9999 damage 8 times (doing roughly 80000 damage). Another level 99 character hits it for 9999 damage, but only 4 times (doing ~40000 damage). Is Locke really that much better of a character because he was able to do 40000 more damage on an enemy that was already dead? To me, that’s like splitting hairs; in the bigger picture there isn’t much difference when both situations lead to a dead enemy.

How do I go about making Oricalcum and Boots of Prowess? Haven’t been able to get a concrete answer.

Both are made through item creation. In the most basic terms, every creatable item has a rank level. Every inventor has a talent level for a particular kind of item creation. For Oricalcum’s case, since it’s made through Alchemy and has a rank of 50… add up all 3 of your inventors’ Alchemy talents who are trying to make Oricalcum. Subract the total talent level from the rank level of the item, and that’s the percentage that you will succeed.

Go here and play with different combinations: http://www.crashedweb.com/so3/

[G.O.T]

maybe its a fact that robo is tops but as an all around every situation character goes to Chrono/Magus to me. If wasnt for Robo having that weak magic defense i would carry him around everywhere I go. Chrono/Magus and Ayla is a team i been playing with and never stop playing with. even tho Magus has no real good techs. his resistance to most magic makes him solid, and the fact he doesnt takes hits like abitch. plus real great support character, all he would needed to be lovely is the ability to heal others. Ayla i hated at first until i saw everyone’s tiers on here and said fuck im going to find out why everyone says she rapes. and sure enough she does. but robo is right below Magus in my opinion. when robo gets some magic defense we can talk.

[Nando]

DOTA top top teir?

[Return_of_Shiki]

What about tiers for WCW World Tour thru No Mercy how would u guys rate those games if u played them. HCTP and Raw/Smackdown already have their rating for each character already so i assume those would be the correct tiers for those two games :karate:

Not really.
The problem with the “Overall” ratings in modern wrestling games is that stats aren’t weighted…some stats are significantly more important than others.

As an example:

WWE Smackdown Vs. RAW tiers…

Although not an “attribute” weight class is probably the most important stat in SvR.
Wrestlers cannot perform the majority of grapple moves (all except the “No Liftup” grapple set moves) on weight classes 2 tiers higher than their own.
On wrestlers which are 2 tiers UNDER them…the standard Military Press can be used (when foe is groggy, do any grapple). This is very crucial in Royal Rumbles, as the Military Press can be used to toss someone outside the ring, bypassing the “Grip Gauge”.
Weight Tiers:

Ultra Heavy: Andre the Giant only
Super Heavy: Batista, Big Show, Kane, Legend Undertaker, Masked Kane, Undertaker
Heavy: Triple H, Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, Eddie Guerrero (LOL), etc.
Light Heavy: Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Scotty 2 Hotty, Bubba Ray Dudley (LOL), etc.
Cruiser: Rey Mysterio only
Diva: The chicks

Despite the…oddities on the list (228 lb. Eddie is a Heavyweight but 310 lb. Bubba is a Lightheavyweight…A-Train is a good 80 lbs. heavier than Batista and yet Batista is a Super Heavyweight and he isn’t???)…this still stand as important tiering factors.

Out of the 6 stats, here is the order of importance:

1. Strength…determines the damage of attacks, nuff’ said
2. Durability…defensive strength, rate of recovery…important but below Strength, and that you should be on the Offensive most of the time, ideally
3. Technique…determines rate of reversals and counters…key to shift you from defense to offense
4. Submission…Submissions are much better in this game…a deadly submission is a useful tool to round a wrestler, but its ranking is hampered by the fact some do not need them to be dominating (Andre…)
5. Speed…determines walking, running, climbing speed…nice to have, but not crucial outside of Cage and Ladder matches
6. Charisma…determines how fast your finisher charges…unlike in previous SD’s, outside of a few deadly moves (Tombstone, Pedigree) and the best submission finishers…many wrestler’s finisher aren’t that strong or even important to their moveset. Continuous grapple attacks >>>>> finisher.

Tiers:

BROKEN:
-Andre the Giant. No contest. Unfair weight advantage on everyone. Only the 6 Super Heavyweight can even safely grapple him, thus neutralizing most of the offense of the Heavy/Light Heavyweights in the game. 10 in both STR and DUR. Badass moveset.

TOP:
-Triple H. 9 or above in every stat but speed (and has the maximum speed for a heavyweight). GREAT moveset…submissions, strikes, and grapples. Best finisher in the game, hands down…every SD! has THE finisher…the one that NO ONE kicks out off, and KOs ANYONE, no matter how fresh you are and your DUR stat. In Shut Your Mouth it was the Stunner. In this game, it’s the Pedigree. Can’t lift Andre, though.

-Undertaker. Solid stats. 10 DUR, 9.5 STR, and 9.5 Charisma. Perhaps a little too dependent on strikes…which opens up problems against those with high TECH. Super Heavyweight…and thus can lift even Andre. Great strikes, damaging grapples…submissions are a little weak but at least they’re there.

-Kurt Angle. 10 in Submission, technique, and charisma is nothing to sneeze at. Solid STR and DUR for a heavyweight. The only 10 in TECH in the whole game, nuff’ said. Will give lower TECH wrestlers fits. Possibly the best moveset in the game. Aerial, grapples, strikes, submissions…Kurt can do it all. Heavyweight. Can’t lift Andre, but his strikes, aerials, and submissions can do well enough. Angle Slam is one of the best finishing moves in the game, and Anglelock is the best Submission in the default movesets. A moderate 8 in DUR can land him trouble against heavy-hitters, though.

-Big Show. 10 in STR, 9.5 in DUR. Only person to have 10 STR besides Andre. Super Heavyweight. Moveset lacks variety, but strikes and basic grapples will put a hurt on anyone. TECH only a 7.5, which can get annoying against the likes of Angle, Benoit, etc…basically a slight stronger UT, but with less speed, versatility, and no submissions to really speak of. But 10 STR is enough to give anybody trouble.

UPPER-MID:
Legend Undertaker: Undertaker but with a slightly tweaked moveset…more strike-based offense, and no real submissions. Gains half point of charisma in exchange for half point in TECH and submission. shrug

Kane/Masked Kane: Undertaker-lite

Chris Benoit: 10 SUB, 9.5 TECH. Tied for 2nd Best TECH with HHH. Good aerial, grapple, ground, and submissions. Strikes are weak for the most part, though which keeps him out of top…but if can get close to you, or get you on the ground, he dominates. Heavyweight, instead of Light Heavy which helps his case A LOT.

The Rock: Superb stats for the most part, but an 8 in Strength, with his quick-strike and grapple based (limited) moveset keep him out of top.

Bret Hart: Only behind Angle, Benoit, and HHH in TECH. Only behind Benoit, Angle, and Flair in Submission. Heavyweight, with solid stats. Great moveset…only limited in strikes, and the Sharpshooter for some reason isn’t as devastating as it should be. Benoit-lite, for the most part.

Shawn Michaels: 7 in STR and Light-Heavyweight class can hurt him. Solid stats otherwise, superior moveset, and his speed lets him runs circles around the Heavyweight main eventers and helps his excellent strikes.

Batista: 9.5 STR, 10 DUR, and Super Heavyweight class means he barely makes the cut above the Mid-Tier deadzone. Limited moveset (way too dependant on power grapples), and lack of speed and technique drag him…but his STR, DUR, and weight are not to be taken lightly.

MID:
Everybody else…there is almost no difference between 3/4 of the roster.

LOW:
The Lightheavyweight jobbers (Scotty 2 Hotty, etc.) and Rey Mysterio (619 is a joke)

CRAP:
Divas and Paul Heyman

[Duy_Nguyen]

DOTA top top teir?

I don’t think it’s possible to tier the dota cast.

If there’s anything I’d say Omniknight is bullshit.

[insomnotek]

3: See video.

its been awhile, someone tell me the blue materia?

[kainzero]

mime attached to command counter.

[box]

What are the tiers for Virtual-On???

[insomnotek]

haah top tiers for saturns dragon force?

i always thought mikal and that one vampire guy you get in the cave were pretty dope with their magics

[Donkus]

1: Did you max out their sources from the Gelnika crash?

2: Critical hits.

3: See video.

Without those Hero Drinks Ungarmax will never get to 9999 on Emerald. I’ve done this with only Barret alive in about 20 seconds after his time. Having a second person alive to give you 2 Hero Drinks greatly speeds your time up.

[angelslayer13]

Halo tiers:
top:battle rifle, sword, sniper rifle, beam rifle,plasma pistol (with battle rifle assist), shotgun rocket launcher
mid:plasma rifle (with sub machine gun assist), granades, brute shot, covenant carbine
low:pistol, needler, plasma sun, sub machine gun.

[G.O.T]

:tup:

Halo tiers:
top:battle rifle, sword, sniper rifle, beam rifle,plasma pistol (with battle rifle assist), shotgun rocket launcher
mid:plasma rifle (with sub machine gun assist), granades, brute shot, covenant carbine
low:pistol, needler, plasma sun, sub machine gun.