Thoughts on ST in Tougeki SBO & Japan

[Silver_Rain_007]

its kind of insulting to state that i base my choices on random tradition and not what i feel is best.

Okay. I never said its ‘random’. Nothing about tradition is ‘random’. It’s history and history that someone has an involvement in or idolizes in someway is going to be a persuasive force. Hence, I feel the arguments coming from ST supporters are grounded in this type of historical logic appeal. I’m not saying its an illegitimate line or argumentation, I’m saying that I don’t find your argument convincing.

Here are some things I’ve learned in my life regarding this game:

1. In this game specifically, I no longer see tiers as a representation of a character’s overall effectiveness, but rather as the level of skill required to use them. I’ve seen that every…single…character can be as effective and deadly as any other. The lower tier character’s who have the most difficult execution, also have the most effective and hard to escape moves. That’s the trade off. Once you can break that execution barrier, these characters can become easier to win with than the top tiers, and it’s one of the greatest feelings in life for me personally. Not the winning, but that moment of breaking and conquering the execution barrier. Other times I’ve had that feeling was landing my first kick flip, and completing the strafe jump training map in Quake 4, and I wouldn’t, in a million years, give that up for easier execution. Because to do that, I might never know that feeling.

Okay, that’s fine. I appreciate that your giftedness for the game makes you a superior player but this train of thought leads to a narrowing, and not an expansion of players given the already high execution bar for any fighting game. For you, if you take execution requirements from a 10 to an 8 would that be too much? 8 to 5? There’s no level of what is too little execution for you except to infer that HDR is now ‘too’ easy and ST is ‘just right’. Here’s the truth for the vast majority of players who have played and maintained some level of dedication, there are realistic plateaus for people that ‘tiers’ do not account for. It doesn’t matter how much football I play I’m not making the NFL, it doesn’t matter who I play or how much, I’m not winning EVO, this argument at its best is short sided and at worst blatantly discriminatory.

2. Execution is the most important aspect of the meta game. It restricts you psychologically to what you can and can’t do in a particular situation, as well as what your opponent may or may not be able to do, which is often directly related to that move’s effectiveness. It also demands great respect from your opponent when they are able to execute at the most demanding level. This is equivalent to the level of respect one might give their opponent if they were killed with a close range rocket, or a rail gun from the other side of the map.

Maybe its just me, but I don’t think your FPS analogies are very persuasive. Especially in a game series like SF2 where CR. MK can do 15% of someone’s life. I almost draw that SF4’s combo execution system would be preferable to you than HDR except I believe I know you well enough to say that’s not what you’re saying at all… so I admit my confusion here.

3. Remix was made because someone felt the execution was too hard for certain characters, ignorant of the subtleties that made these characters among the most satisfying to play in a fighting game ever. For the casual player, fine, but to any competitor, I don’t see how you can look yourself in the mirror when you KNOW that the original execution was possible to master if you only put in the time, no matter how long it took. But now that it’s easier, you suddenly consider yourselves competitors on the same level as those who understand what it truly means to play this game. It’s like playing on a regulation court in the NBA, or playing in your driveway with the rim lowered so you can feel like you’re doing the amazing things that you’ve seen.

The personal attack against David Sirlin and his knowledge of the game aside, you are looking at this like the blind elitist living on the top floor of the Trump Tower wondering how people live on 50K a year. How can I look at myself in the mirror? Its easy when I’m having more fun. You seem to imply that we should have some sort of guilt about being less good at execution. But this refuses to put execution of the mind into the equation. I can’t do cammy’s 8 hit renda cancel super combo but I know my spacing well and the best part of my game is poking and footsies I think, does that mean I’m ‘bad’ at execution? No, it means execution is multifaceted and must be judged as such, the problem is acknowledging execution as multifaceted introduces the necessity to judge it in a subjective and not completely objective way. And as a proud basketball player in the Hoosier State, your basketball analogy is way off base. Basketball courts are regulation no matter where you go, the rim is 10 feet everywhere, go watch Hoosiers in case you didn’t see Gene Hackman explain that at Hinkle Fieldhouse. It’s not who can do the fanciest dunk who wins. It’s not the point guard who can do crazy dribbles, its the player who has solid fundamentals, doesn’t turn the ball over, and has good shooting form who plays well in a team game like basketball, of course this is in the acknowledgment that these things can only over come so much of an athletic disadvantage or in the case of the analogy here, fighting game talent. The court didn’t change, the rim didn’t change, the rules of the game didn’t change. All it did was make hyper athleticism or ridiculous finger dexterity in our case a lesser part of the equation. Also please note again the appeal to history and tradition. “It was this way and you know it was this way and you couldn’t do it before but you can do it now, so don’t you feel guilty?” People complain that I show appeals to history as the basis for large parts of their argument but continue to use historical appeals…

4. There’s a direct correlation between the design of the controls and a move’s execution. Altering the controller alters the intended difficulty of the execution. Keeping the metaphor alive, I suppose this is equivalent to making a basketball smaller so it’s easier to hold, but now it’s also easier to dribble and get through the rim.

So now you’ve extended your metaphor to hating on women’s sports (who by definition at the peak of their potential are less athletic and must over compensate in other ways, a la the WNBA) which is fine but wouldn’t a better metaphor be like bringing in the 3 point line? The ball is the same, its still SF2, the court is the same, the engine is still the same, okay so now a 3 pointer isn’t the NBA 3 pointer at 22 feet but the college one at 20.5 feet. That’s your complaint?

5. What you think you know about this game, you don’t know until you go to Japan. Some of you mention there is nothing more to discover in ST, when in fact, for you personally, there is everything to discover. And even after you’ve discovered that, there’s still more, and it never gets old.

I personally think this last point is the most legitimate part of your argument, and at its best its specious. The question isn’t whether people are interested in learning what other people already know and playing catch up. The question is whether we move backwards and play catch up or blaze a new trail and set off on our own, making a clear break from the past and saying this is what we’re going to do. Some people will never change, that’s fine. But the fighting game community in North America is changing radically and for SF2 to survive in this environment as a national level type game, and not a regionally divided one, we need to coalesce around one standard as a tournament standard. Who knows, maybe its simply not possible, but the consequences of obstinacy one way or another are far worse than the consequences of picking a standard and moving forward and the truth is for 80% of the geographic space of the country and the players who live there, logistically your preference simply isn’t an option, and certainly going to Japan to play arcade ST to learn the game like they know it isn’t an option.

So until someone who advocates for ST as the standard explains to me how to make sure it isn’t a logistical nightmare and players across the country can play the same standard to ensure we’re all on the same page and game differences aren’t deciding tournament results, how do you argue against HDR as national tournament standard other than some people just don’t want to change?

[TarkanX]

As someone who lives in the Midwest (Minnesota), there is a much difficult hurdle to jump through in terms of having consistent tournaments for either SF2. I have said this for years (made a few topics on it, and even had it on a Midwest Fighting game based radio show), that the Midwest is geographically at a disadvantage. If you want to go from Boston to New York, only 3 hours, DV/MD/VA to New York is about the same, and the New England area is so close to each other. But if you want to go from Minneapolis-St.Paul to Chicago, 7 hours, Chicago to Columbus, about 6 hours. And it pretty much goes for the majority of the Midwest.

Ganelon pointed out that there was a scene here for Minnesota for SF2, but I would say it is more of an appetizer to the main course of SF4, of course, all the other games have had that affect, CvS2, 3s, MvC2, GGAC, T6, BB, and it isn’t just here, but the whole country, though Smash seems to hold its own. We have some great national placers here, Wes Truelson, Jesse Howard, and we have had a few people (about the same age as the former 2) that are on both of those guys levels, but the problem is with age, comes responsibility, and other factors. Some of those guys live in Japan now, Jesse Howard doesn’t have the desire anymore (and he plays VF exclusively, now, and has been that way for years), and Wes got married a few years ago, and mainly plays SF4. There was actually weekday gatherings at Wess’ place for ST about 3 years ago, on the ST cabinet, but it only lasted a few months (I was working during those days, so I wasn’t able to make it to those).

For me, personally, I like playing a variety games at a competitive level, because it makes me a better player, it is more fun learning different challenges, and also, if I don’t do well in one game, I don’t have to stick around the tournament not doing much, because I have other games to look forward to, to compete in, which keeps me busy (ask Arturo Sanchez, and other players that play multiple games, I’m sure they’ll tell you the same thing). Through all of this, SF2 series is my favorite. If I were to have a version to play, between ST and HDR (since those are the only two choices), it would be ST (although I prefer HF and AE). ST is more fast-paced, and hits you hard, which forces you to become even stronger, and it has been around for a long time, so it has made its place. If HDR was released shortly after ST, that would be the game to play, but it wasn’t; this might be the wrong comparison, but it would be similar to remixing a great classic song or movie from years ago, to fit todays standards. Sure, you would have fans of the new stuff, but the people that watched or listened to the classic stuff wouldn’t like it or not like it as much (they would listen or watch it, but they wouldn’t see it as a replacement to the classic stuff).

When it comes down to it, you can’t have both games being featured as main games in the tournament. ST and HDR are too similar (though not the same) for that, and it affects your play, because of that. As someone that plays multiple games, when I go from ST/HDR to something like Alpha 2, CvS2, or 3s, I don’t really miss a beat, even though something like A2 is somewhat close to ST, there are engine differences, and significant character differences where you can differentiate them, but for something like ST to HDR, a character like T. Hawk, Cammy, Dhalsim would need to adjust (especially with those characters being really technical). There is a reason why Tekken, VF players don’t have multiple games of the same series in a tournament, other than it being new (even if the game isn’t as good). There are similarities from the games where it would be difficult to transition and maintain playing at your best, and unless you pick someone where the changes aren’t that much (or significant), or you are very talented (Valle, Choi, Wong), then you are really going to struggle (not play at your best).

I was hoping that with someone like RoyalPhlush, who I consider a new player, winning a major tournament (and I heard that was his first tournament, ever) with great players and legends in the tournament, such as Alex Valle, Wes Truelson, Jesse Howard, Damdai, Immortal, would boost SF2 in the Midwest, but it doesn’t seem to have done much. Midwest will always seem to be behind the other coasts, when it comes to fighting games (due to how they work), which is sad, but that’s reality. I would personally love to get to that level, and I always have wanted to, and I believe I still have the desire, but I have to get personal things straightened out (like trying to make a wage that I can actually live on, which I am working on, right now), before I can even think of practicing even for a little bit.

Also, one point I want to add, is that althogh online play is much better than it was back in the kaillera days, there are some things I don’t like, one of which is say on GGPO, I’m unfamiliar with a match-up (M.Bison), and even though I’m not too good, I consider myself to be at least solid. Some of these players will beat me over and over for about 5 to 10 matches, and then once I start adapting, they leave, and I’m never able to play them again. Maybe they’ll send some hate message (which I don’t like, but don’t care about), but how am I supposed to get better if I can’t play properly when people leave only after a few matches? Some people (especially me) need to warm up. This doesn’t happen offline.

Silver Rain 007: I know you’re a smart guy (I believe you have a doctorate, and you teach at a University), but video games will always have an execution factor, or else they aren’t technically video games (except RPGs, but those aren’t competitive). Any type of competition for video games (fighting, RTS, FPS, High Score, Speed Run) will always have an execution factor, and changing it for a game that is already established into a remix is going to bring in arguments. If you change one thing to make it easier, then other factors will change. Trying to make video games into something as grand as Chess or Go, isn’t going to work, since those games have been around for centuries, and usually a video game is considered dated by the 3rd or 4th year (I honestly wish that video games could have the longevity of a Chess or Go, and ST is probably the longest competitive game, but I don’t know if an individual video game is meant for that). Also, without execution, there won’t be “metagame” strategies, such as baiting or committing (or they would probably be watered down). I think of it as the Play Action in Football, basically, in Football, you have to find a balance between run and pass, and with Play Action, you are fooling the defender into thinking that you will run the ball, but instead, you are attempting to pass it (which freezes the linebackers and possibly defensive backs from pressuring the runner). If you passed all day, defenders would have no problem in blitzing (line backers trying to pressure the quarter back, and defensive backs possibly blitzing, or staying “at home”). In SF2, if I know you can’t reverse, then I will tick throw you till I win, but if I know your reversal skills are great, then I will have to keep it in my head in whether trying to meaty, tick throw, or against Ken, safe jump you. If you can’t anti-air, then I will jump on you all day, if you can’t get around fireballs, then I will pound you with them. This is what execution does, and the harder it is, the more it forces you to adapt and get around them, and once you do that, you become an even stronger player. At least SF2 isn’t as bad as some of the games made on the NES, not because it was made that way, but due to crappy programming.

[John_Rambo]

Okay. I never said its ‘random’. Nothing about tradition is ‘random’. It’s history and history that someone has an involvement in or idolizes in someway is going to be a persuasive force. Hence, I feel the arguments coming from ST supporters are grounded in this type of historical logic appeal. I’m not saying its an illegitimate line or argumentation, I’m saying that I don’t find your argument convincing.

i guess your entitled to your “opinion about how i formed my opinion”, I tried to explain things in that post, hopefully some people understood it.

tradition means little to me, if something better comes out i will would respectfully put st away, i almost did it once before…

[papasi]

Okay, that’s fine. I appreciate that your giftedness for the game makes you a superior player but this train of thought leads to a narrowing, and not an expansion of players given the already high execution bar for any fighting game. For you, if you take execution requirements from a 10 to an 8 would that be too much? 8 to 5? There’s no level of what is too little execution for you except to infer that HDR is now ‘too’ easy and ST is ‘just right’.

Have you not read what I said about sf3 & sf4? They both have easy motion for special moves and casual players can enjoy the game, while it doesn’t affect the competitive plays because special moves alone won’t cut it in those games.

In ST/HDR, special moves play a way more important role in the game!

It doesn’t matter how much football I play I’m not making the NFL, it doesn’t matter who I play or how much, I’m not winning EVO, this argument at its best is short sided and at worst blatantly discriminatory.

I can’t do cammy’s 8 hit renda cancel super combo but I know my spacing well and the best part of my game is poking and footsies I think, does that mean I’m ‘bad’ at execution? No, it means execution is multifaceted and must be judged as such

I like how you use s-kill’s line but in fact he used it as the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Fighting games are designed so that (every) average person can compete.
Ganelon said he has below average reaction time, so he picked a main that works for him.

If you can’t do cammy 8 hit renda cancel super combo, and assuming that it is a key part (which is false) to play cammy competitively, I’m sorry but please reevaluate and pick another as your main.

Deal with it instead of relying the game to make the motion easier (and potentially breaking the game - SPD is easier, then why not every specials are made easier to the same degree to level out the difference?).

Some people are gifted and can play the entire cast at high level (execution-wise), many of us can’t.

My middle school classmate can do 360 in WW. All of our friends are jealous. I can’t. So I play ryu.
In fact, I fired up WW sometime ago and found that it is harder for me to cr. jab tick to spd in WW than in HDR. Maybe I suck or maybe HDR make it easy for me, I’m ok with either reason.

Same goes for SF3/SF4, if people can’t do those link combos consistently or parry like mad, then don’t try so hard and just take the game casually and enjoy it.

Do you think some easy mode link combos or parry helper mode would make those games greater than the original? It would drive those competitive players away and stick to the old game.

The personal attack against David Sirlin and his knowledge of the game aside, you are looking at this like the blind elitist living on the top floor of the Trump Tower wondering how people live on 50K a year. How can I look at myself in the mirror? Its easy when I’m having more fun. You seem to imply that we should have some sort of guilt about being less good at execution. But this refuses to put execution of the mind into the equation.

I am constantly amazed by sirlin. He seemed to be very intelligent but a lot of his fans are clouding his reasoning and he may never learn from the mistakes that he made with bad balanace changes in HDR (my opinion, flame me if you want, and yes there are also good changes in HDR, but the whole doesn’t add up)

how do you argue against HDR as national tournament standard other than some people just don’t want to change?

You still think we are here to take HDR away from you?

I’m actually a supporter of EVO continuing to use HDR considering the logistic issues and how it is the only way sf2 can stay in the spotlight at EVO and the only chance to see OG still battling out with the NG.

[damdai]

Okay, that’s fine. I appreciate that your giftedness for the game makes you a superior player but this train of thought leads to a narrowing, and not an expansion of players given the already high execution bar for any fighting game. For you, if you take execution requirements from a 10 to an 8 would that be too much? 8 to 5? There’s no level of what is too little execution for you except to infer that HDR is now ‘too’ easy and ST is ‘just right’. Here’s the truth for the vast majority of players who have played and maintained some level of dedication, there are realistic plateaus for people that ‘tiers’ do not account for. It doesn’t matter how much football I play I’m not making the NFL, it doesn’t matter who I play or how much, I’m not winning EVO, this argument at its best is short sided and at worst blatantly discriminatory.

I wasn’t flexing my giftedness, or even implying that I was gifted. I’m saying that anyone can master these techniques, but there’s a type of person who gives up before they even try. They have automatically categorized themselves as inferior before the fight has even begun.

Maybe its just me, but I don’t think your FPS analogies are very persuasive. Especially in a game series like SF2 where CR. MK can do 15% of someone’s life. I almost draw that SF4’s combo execution system would be preferable to you than HDR except I believe I know you well enough to say that’s not what you’re saying at all… so I admit my confusion here.

It’s not rocket launcher science. It takes more skill to kill with a railgun than a rocket launcher.

The personal attack against David Sirlin and his knowledge of the game aside, you are looking at this like the blind elitist living on the top floor of the Trump Tower wondering how people live on 50K a year. How can I look at myself in the mirror? Its easy when I’m having more fun. You seem to imply that we should have some sort of guilt about being less good at execution. But this refuses to put execution of the mind into the equation. I can’t do cammy’s 8 hit renda cancel super combo but I know my spacing well and the best part of my game is poking and footsies I think, does that mean I’m ‘bad’ at execution? No, it means execution is multifaceted and must be judged as such, the problem is acknowledging execution as multifaceted introduces the necessity to judge it in a subjective and not completely objective way. And as a proud basketball player in the Hoosier State, your basketball analogy is way off base. Basketball courts are regulation no matter where you go, the rim is 10 feet everywhere, go watch Hoosiers in case you didn’t see Gene Hackman explain that at Hinkle Fieldhouse. It’s not who can do the fanciest dunk who wins. It’s not the point guard who can do crazy dribbles, its the player who has solid fundamentals, doesn’t turn the ball over, and has good shooting form who plays well in a team game like basketball, of course this is in the acknowledgment that these things can only over come so much of an athletic disadvantage or in the case of the analogy here, fighting game talent. The court didn’t change, the rim didn’t change, the rules of the game didn’t change. All it did was make hyper athleticism or ridiculous finger dexterity in our case a lesser part of the equation. Also please note again the appeal to history and tradition. “It was this way and you know it was this way and you couldn’t do it before but you can do it now, so don’t you feel guilty?” People complain that I show appeals to history as the basis for large parts of their argument but continue to use historical appeals…

I don’t understand how you’re misinterpreting these basic concepts that I’ve tried extra hard to simplify. Perhaps you’re so smart, that you’ve come full circle! ST = basketball regulation, HDR = backyard imitation.

So now you’ve extended your metaphor to hating on women’s sports (who by definition at the peak of their potential are less athletic and must over compensate in other ways, a la the WNBA) which is fine but wouldn’t a better metaphor be like bringing in the 3 point line? The ball is the same, its still SF2, the court is the same, the engine is still the same, okay so now a 3 pointer isn’t the NBA 3 pointer at 22 feet but the college one at 20.5 feet. That’s your complaint?

I prefer the ball size metaphor because it more directly relates to the controls of the game, which was the subject of #4. Women’s basketball never entered my mind.

[Corrosive]

As far as living in the midwest goes, I can add myself as a third voice to what TarkanX and RoyalPhlush have been saying about the midwest. I think the Midwest is primarily Street Fighter IV in many of the cities I’ve looked at as potential replacements for the scene I was a part of in MD/VA. Sadly, both of these places (Omaha, NE and Kansas City, KS) are primarily focused on Street Fighter IV. While my performance in IV was average/decent while I did spend time on it, I don’t like the game. The other game that midwest seems to excel at is Guilty Gear, I know Ohio has a strong set of players, for example.

Either way, the closest scene to me is a 3 hour drive. While, physically, Omaha isn’t that far away from me, I have to drive north and then cross into Iowa to get access to the interstate highway in order to expedite my trip. I can also pass through Norfolk, NE, but either option is about the same amount of traveling time. And I’m not making that trip just to play Street Fighter IV.

I prefer Super Turbo to HD Remix. That’s no secret. The only thing I can say is that I prefer being able to focus on “what is” rather than “what could have been.” While you can say that any new iteration of a game can be like that, I think this was far different from other iterations of a game. The idea that you could still capture the essence of Super Turbo while changing it dramatically in certain ways… I’d have preferred for just sweeping changes across the board. HDR isn’t ST, and I don’t view it as an adequate replacement or successor. I never will.

This isn’t the first time myself or others have done this, though. Maryland prefers Guilty Gear XX Slash to Guilty Gear AC. So, at the end of the day, I can only say play what you want. I’m not interested in changing the minds of players I will never compete against, so I won’t try. I rarely play online these days, I only have DSL and it’s small-town DSL that throttles an already slow connection of 2 meg down, .5 meg up. It’s not an adequate replacement, in my opinion, and having spent most of my competitive time with offline play, I will never view it as an acceptable substitute to offline play.

Regardless of anyone’s situation.

I play ST Cammy and I think Damdai accurately touches on what it’s like to play her. I also feel she’s a better character in ST than HDR. Easier Hooligan and “safe” (laugh) Spiral Arrow/Cannon Drill are not as useful as they seem. In the case of the latter, it really isn’t that much safer than ST in a lot of match ups. The range you have to be at in order to get a safe Cannon Drill means you’re committing a “Street Fighter IV” style block string in many cases, open to reversals in many situations.

And the jump MP nerf was unnecessary. That alone completely strikes away the credibility of the designer in my mind, and a lot of other changes also do this for me as well. If you think Sim had it hard in that match up, you clearly don’t know how to use Back+Roundhouse like David Spence, who goes about the way the match up numbers read whenever I’ve fought him in classic ST. HDR, I don’t even stand a chance, he knows Sim to a level where he can exploit all of those changes.

[GoldenArch]

As a Ken player, I say full speed ahead (towards HDR). I actually prefer the speed and aesthetics of ST, but Ken’s glitches sour my experience with the game. It’s almost like I’m fighting the game more than my opponent.

For example, I can time a reversal super within the variable input window (btw, variable input windows are one of the WORST things about ST), but it’d be worthless because it won’t come out. This inconsistency is what bothers me most about ST.

Also, who cares about easier input windows? I’m pretty sure a top player like Snake Eyez won’t have a problem pulling off a clutch SPD no matter what version of SF he’s playing. Easier inputs don’t make the game easier. I could have the greatest dexterity in the world, pulling off ridiculous combos left and right, but, I’d still lose to Daigo because he’s a better player than I am, plain and simple.

BTW: I do realize that Ken received nothing but buffs in HDR, take that into consideration whilst reading my post.

[papasi]

As a Ken player, I say full speed ahead (towards HDR). I actually prefer the speed and aesthetics of ST, but Ken’s glitches sour my experience with the game. It’s almost like I’m fighting the game more than my opponent.

Ken is probably the last one in the entire cast to need super reversal to save his ass. His fierce DP hit on first frame, his jab DP has mad priority and hit on frame 3. He is not top tier so fixing his super reversal IMO is a good thing, but 90% people don’t complain about this bug because of the points I illustrated.

Sim however, having his reversal fixed gives him a great buff.
Sim when knocked down, is just like Dictator. Everyone jump-in on these two all day long.
ST is lucky to have this bug I say, otherwise gian and doctor will own so bad.

Also, who cares about easier input windows? I’m pretty sure a top player like Snake Eyez won’t have a problem pulling off a clutch SPD no matter what version of SF he’s playing. Easier inputs don’t make the game easier. I could have the greatest dexterity in the world, pulling off ridiculous combos left and right, but, I’d still lose to Daigo because he’s a better player than I am, plain and simple.

Of course, pulling off specials is only part of the equation. Mind games, spacing / footsies etc also need to factor in. Daigo owns in all area. But easier motion tilted that game balance to be too focus on the other aspects (meta game), james chen also expand on this balance of different aspects quite a bit. So we do care.

[Battosai]

I think the invinciblity of the CW in hdr is more of a concern than the easier motion imo. After facing Sirlins fei at his hdr gathering, the invinceablity of the move gave me trouble when trying to flash kick it which now the cw can sometimes go right throw my fk. I will need more practice against sirlin to figure out the timing of countering it

Sup Papsai hit me up when you want to get some ST matches at milpitas Golfland

peace

[Shari]

Cry me a river Midwest players.

Cry me a river.

[damdai]

As a Ken player, I say full speed ahead (towards HDR). I actually prefer the speed and aesthetics of ST, but Ken’s glitches sour my experience with the game. It’s almost like I’m fighting the game more than my opponent.

For example, I can time a reversal super within the variable input window (btw, variable input windows are one of the WORST things about ST), but it’d be worthless because it won’t come out. This inconsistency is what bothers me most about ST.

The only problem Ken has in ST is no reversal super, which isn’t much of a problem considering his normal dp can’t be safe jumped and is invincible anyway. Variable input windows aren’t an issue worth discussing as they have zero effect once you pass a certain level.

Also, who cares about easier input windows? I’m pretty sure a top player like Snake Eyez won’t have a problem pulling off a clutch SPD no matter what version of SF he’s playing. Easier inputs don’t make the game easier. I could have the greatest dexterity in the world, pulling off ridiculous combos left and right, but, I’d still lose to Daigo because he’s a better player than I am, plain and simple.

Performing an spd on a pad in HDR is not the same as performing an spd on a stick in arcade ST. Easier inputs make the game easier by definition. They reduce the skill required in arguably the most important aspect of the game, which unfortunately some feel shouldn’t exist at all.

[papasi]

Think the invinciblity of the CW in hdr is more of a concern than the easier motion imo. After facing Sirlins fei at his hdr gathering, the invinceablity of the move gave me trouble when trying to flash kick it which now the cw can sometimes go right throw my fk.

That goes hand in hand man. QCF motion is not a problem if the move is not that good (lk invincible start up frame). ST rog’s jab headbutt is also good like this but at least it requires a charge.

Sup Papsai hit me up when you want to get some ST matches at milpitas Golfland
peace

After you told me that it is a mame cab, I lost interest We could have just play using my desktop lol.
Once I have a permanent place I’ll try to get a cab to house my cps2 board. I’ll sure pm you for some games.

[Battosai]

That goes hand in hand man. QCF motion is not a problem if the move is not that good (lk invincible start up frame). ST rog’s jab headbutt is also good like this but at least it requires a charge.

After you told me that it is a mame cab, I lost interest We could have just play using my desktop lol.
Once I have a permanent place I’ll try to get a cab to house my cps2 board. I’ll sure pm you for some games.

Yeah, what you said about the cw makes sense.

For sure man let me know, I use an ex hori 2 and it should work on any desktop with xp or 7. Awesome you got an actual ST cps2 board…too cool.

[GoldenArch]

The only problem Ken has in ST is no reversal super, which isn’t much of a problem considering his normal dp can’t be safe jumped and is invincible anyway. Variable input windows aren’t an issue worth discussing as they have zero effect once you pass a certain level.

Point taken. It’s probably just my play style with Ken. I actively give up advantageous positions in order to reversal super or DP to gain a knockdown and start a loop of some sort. However, by stating that variable input windows aren’t a problem (for you), are you then saying you’re OK with the game controlling an outcome of a match?

If it’s the championship round at EVO, how would you feel if you lost because you got a reversal out in 9 frames, but the window for that instance was 8? For me personally, I like knowing that the window is constant. Furthermore, what if your opponent does manage to get a game winning reversal because the game gave him the full input window? Players shouldn’t rely on luck of this type to win.

Performing an spd on a pad in HDR is not the same as performing an spd on a stick in arcade ST. Easier inputs make the game easier by definition. They reduce the skill required in arguably the most important aspect of the game, which unfortunately some feel shouldn’t exist at all.

From day one on this forum, literally everyone has told me, over and over, that the key to being good at SFII (any iteration) is not to know fancy combos or have great dexterity, but to be able to out-think your opponent by having great zoning skills, playing mind games, etc.

Easier inputs makes capitalizing on those fundamentals easier, but it doesn’t compensate for making mental mistakes. That 'Gief player still has to recognize a fireball pattern, he still has to time his jump-ins, he still must get in. The basics of SFII have not been changed in the slightest - spam a move and get killed.

[Fulaani]

good for you if you have arcade st available to you. lets make the standard arcade st so only you guys can have fun in your homeboys apartment and the rest is reduced to spectators.

edit nm im not gonna discuss it.

[Corrosive]

Sure are a lot of farmers in Europe.

[Fulaani]

???

[RoyalPhlush]

Cry me a river Midwest players.

Cry me a river.

Excuse me? How was I cryin sir??

[Corrosive]

???

I’ve been fucked up by the most “internet” of posts around here, so maybe you can tell me what you meant by that statement you do feel is worth leaving up for discussion. I’m not quite sure I get what it is you think we’re doing out here.

Excuse me? How was I cryin sir??

Don’t take the bait on that, man. It isn’t worth it given his track record.

[CWheezy]

“retarded basketball stuff”

This is when someone who plays very little basketball and doesn’t understand who are the most valuable players per team, decides to speak up about it.

Also sports are a bad comparison, because the ENTIRE GAME is execution. If you had no strategy but you could execute perfectly, you would win every time. The reason why strategy exists in those games is because they are not perfect, so they try to make best possible chance to execute properly