Thoughts on ST in Tougeki SBO & Japan

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
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I thought we do not want to turn this thread into a vs thread since we have gone through all that already, and you weren’t there? just a few posts up there are examples already -_-

This is not to start it all over again but I’ll list a few to tell you that ST players don’t like it with valid reasons (or opinions if you insist)

  • easier motion screws up a lot of moves
    blanka mashing counter throw => electricty
    piano spd => lariat
    chun early neutral RH => sbk
    ryu walking fb => dp

  • changed motions makes it difficult to go back and forth between versions
    sim yoga flame, super
    720 => 2xHCF + backward, etc etc

  • changed motions messed up game balance
    non jumping spd/mexican typhoon and super when whiffed
    Hooligan
    CW

  • changing styles of play for certain characters
    fei cannot combo after cw [a lot of fei players don’t like this]
    ganelon also mentioned that removing stored flip kick changes the style of play for claw, making it less dynamic
    fake fireball
    (and originally sirlin wanted to remove stored super from chun -_-;:wink:

  • inconsistent changes among the characters based on design goals as described in sirllin’s articles
    [ go read NKI and VF4 post]

if HDR fans like these changes, it’s your game, I have no problem with that.

I don’t think john rambo or ganelon asked HDR players to build up the ST scene BTW, at least that’s how I understand it.

I’d like to add that Season’s beating is growing bigger and bigger each year, and it is running both ST and HDR (side). It’s happening in 2 weeks BTW.

If someone can find the data, I’m curious to know whether it is the 2nd or 3rd largest majors after EVO.

I believe you work in game/software development right?
It’s often said that customer usually only use 20% of the features (of your product).

So it seems like the other 80% is useless, right?

It turns out that every customer is using a different subset of your product. So that 20% do not overlap.

The 10% that HDR different from ST is enough to make ST fans not wanting to play HDR.

And those people that prefer ST all have their own little `opinions’ that would make you go “That’s it?”. But it is how it is.

Edit: I just found out that you used 1 sentence to describe what I said with 10.

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^ Thanks for giving some specifics. But please guys, let’s not get off on that tangent too much. Let’s just take it at face value that some people prefer each game for whatever reason and that they find X/Y/Z to be better/lamer in each game. At this point it should be obvious that we’re not going to change each others minds.

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actually, for awhile i used to think that if HDR’s popularity were to grow, that those who support only ST (or prefer it) feel that it is affecting their scene in a negative way. true or false?

also, ST has been around for awhile. since the 90’s. we can agree that it has had a long run and continues to live (if it’s still being played on ggpo, jpn, EC, etc then it’s still alive). HDR has been out barely 2 or 3 years, and i really gotta ask, have OG st players given this version a fair shot? the transition from ST to HDR is easier than transitioning from ST to say SSF4 right? but if you’d prefer not to touch HDR then that’s cool though. btw, when we are talking about adjusting to changes, are we talking about ST players going to HDR or are you referring to HDR players needing to adjust to ST?

also, say by some miraculous reason this game was accepted and had a widespread release in jpn, if (big IF) that were to happen, would the ST scene here follow suit? because it seems as if the community is “splitting” because some are following japan’s lead. but at the same time would there even be more than 5-10 players from usa who would actually go and compete with them at SBO/JPN?

regarding the motion changes and whatnot between the 2 games, i still think it is negligible as long as you give it some practice. if daigo, tokido can do well in hdr at evo, and i’m sure some of you have run into yuu vega and other japanese players from japn, then i don’t see it being such a hindrance (in the long run i mean, because of course we’d have to practice to perfect the motions down).

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The negative effect having two games is that the community is split. It hurts both games.

sigh… there is a post in the previous page where john rambo described in details his experience going from ST -> HDR

and i bought a Xbox 360 (which is now collecting dust) and one year gold membership and I only have one game, which is HDR. I also force two of my friends and relatives to buy it too. (and they are not playing it anymore)

(well i bought sf4 and ssf4 too, but besides completing a few trials to confirm that i don’t like it, i have not started it up again and i have sf4 on pc for input display mode use only)

none of these characters have motion change. same reason why you see john choi and alex valle enter HDR at EVO two years in a row.
they don’t need to practice ryu, they already know it.

and i can play ken just fine. but i’m not going to play sim or gief on HDR.

have you not read what fatboy said, i have the exact same problem. the game looks similar enough that your muscle memory get confused a lot

i can’t find the dsp video but he described in detail why he needs to stop playing HDR because it messes up his game.

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I’ll continue to wait and see ST players prove this is game breaking.

That is all. :slight_smile:

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Hey wait a minute. Don’t you want to beat DGV and Snake eyez and win the next SCR?
Oh no you better not because:

  1. you prove my point
  2. now fei is baby zone and no one thinks you are good because the character is broken

or you can try to beat those guys without using that baby zone CW (evil laugh)

see you cannot win either way. better delete your post before someone else see it lol.

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:lol:

We’re going to start the BabyZone crew. We’ll hand out free pacifiers for the salty!

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Nice. And if you ever want to get away from the babyzone crew once in a long while,

I’ll be more than happy to be your CW practice dummy. You’re welcomed :slight_smile:

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I like my practice dummies nice and easy. :wink:

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First of all, learn English. Second of all, if you think Fei’s CW is “babyzone”, then why don’t you put your money where your mouth is, and come out to NCR and win or make top 8 with Fei? He is babyzone!!, therefore he must be easy to win with!! Your location says “CA” so I know you’re in the right state, and now you have no excuse!!

Also, whoever came up with the term “babyzone” term must have been a scrub, complaining about low tier characters being overpowered or broken. LOL LOL That’s right Zangief is not too good, Fei is not too beastly. Learn how to deal with their new tricks first before labelling them “babyzone”. Having played Aqua Snake’s Fei quite a lot, he definitely has the skills, reaction and mind games to beat the best. I’m now getting good at DP’ing CWs on reaction, see what happens when you “try harder”? LOL LOL

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the motion hindrances for sim and gief, let’s talk about those:
for sim, his yoga flame is reverse fireball so it doesnt overlap with regular fireball and his teleport requires 2 instead of 3 buttons. say you were to play on a different setup then you normally do, i would think the chances of making a mistake with the yoga flame and yoga fire on st is higher, than say playing on hdr where the yoga flame is completely different motion from yoga fire so no overlap. also, the more button presses the more likely you are to mess up with the teleport. so, where exactly is the hindrance in that? ya, you won’t be used to it at first, but with some practice i don’t think it would be much of a problem of doing yoga fire when you meant to do flame etc.

with gief, i dunno, i recall damdai saying it made things too easy for gief players to win or pull off spd. if what he said was true - i’m paraphrasing btw and i dont recall what he said word for word, but if he is right, apparently gief got better - like much better, so i’m unclear on what you mean by the hindrances in anything that was changed with him or how it would affect gief players transitioning from ST to hdr. i also recall haru tejyo, who was supposedly feared on ggpo, destroying people on HDR. if this guy can make the transition and dominate - regardless of changes made to gief, what’s to stop other ST players from dominating and tranitioning to hdr?

can you give me a link or post to exactly what rambo says? (granted he is 1 person and he has an opinion which can vary from other og players opinions of going to st to hdr, bad or good, i would still like to read it). if he is going from st to hdr to st, ok i might be able to see some problems he is having. but if he is sticking with hdr or st prior to a particular tourney, i don’t think it should be a big problem if he truly dedicated himself to a certain game. lemme use choi or daigo or wong as an example. they play mutliple games and are good at many of them that have different game engines, mechanics, etc. certainly much different than say hdr and and st. also, regarding giving hdr a chance. let me remind you that st went thru the same thing. if i recall from back in the day (og’s, please correct me if i am totally wrong and i’ll retract this), among ww, ce, hf, ssf, and st, st was among the least popular versions during the arcade days. this was mainly due to other competing fighting games at the time, and street fighter was somewhat on a decline (by this point, it had to compete with tekken, vf, snk games, mk, etc). if i recall, ww and ce were most popular, with hf to some being the “perfect” version of the series - but by then not as popular even as ce, and when ssf came out, people were heavily anticipating the new characters but were disappointed by the speed and lack of other new things, and st was somewhat released to “correct” the mistakes in ssf2 (i’m going by memory here, and i might be off on some things but please correct me if i am, i won’t take offense).

st, was later picked up by evo and others as a tourney game i believe because it was somewhat the “bridge” and “last link” to the old series of sf2 games before alpha and the the newer series of sf. so when that happened, ST was given it’s “second chance” to grow. (btw, for a time back then there was a debate i believe as to what was the better/most pure version of sf2, between hf and st - but it’s been so long and obviously a whole new generation came up with st and people stopped supporting hf by then).

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If you still don’t get that we are having fun and laughing at damdai’s over exaggerated comment, I don’t know what to tell you.

My personal take is that the new SPD & CW are too easy and do not align with how powerful / useful these moves are.

I do not agree with damdai that gief/fei is more broken in HDR than o sagat in ST, but I could be wrong.

Your logic doesn’t follow. I don’t get how I need to do what damdai did (win a tourney with akuma to prove it is broken as it is not obvious? s-kill’s articles, if any of you have read, already explained why akuma is broken, and since HDR akuma preserves the same properties, it follows that…)

I don’t need to place top 8 @ NCR HDR with R fei to state that I think SPD and CW are too easy to warrant how powerful they are.

Here’s what aqua snake told me, he said he likes HDR’s easier motion so that he can focus on meta game more instead of worrying about execution.

I agree that it is a great way to attract new blood to the game and great for casual players too, note that sf4 is using the exact same tactic to attract casual players.

But in sf4 executing individual specials with 100% accuracy doesn’t win you the game, non-ex dp & flash kick easily trade with jump in and does pathetic damage.

sf4 shifts all the complexity to link combo, focus attack, fadc ultra madness and whatnot where casual players don’t need to learn and still have fun with the game.
(and sf3 shifts all the high level stuff to parry, see, capcom designers have a pattern there)

but in ST/HDR, special moves are the corner stones of the game.

if you have a seventh button for spd (macro), you can instantly play gief in a meta level (what aqua said), but would it be fair?

I don’t main blanka but if I do I’m gonna scream foul play since my < > P move is punishable on block, gets extra damage when hit out of and requires charge to use while fei’s insanely safe CW is just QCF K and doesn’t require charge.

You don’t agree? It’s fine with me.

Although I don’t play HDR, I absolutely enjoy watching it because even it doesn’t play like ST, watching it on screen is as excited as watching ST.

I watched all NCR HDR pool games in person, and I was one of the guys chanting for DGV during the finals.

I’m not ruling out that I will not enter HDR at NCR if it is convenient though, but this is not my game. I’ll definitely play ST if it is available, whether casual or side tourney.

Congrats.

I’m not trying to make enemy with you. So what can I say. Thanks?

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i mentioned sometime ago that sim’s yoga fire is a pain in the ass to use at first if you play ryu a lot.

with ryu, if you are in blocking position (most of the time when not attacking), you can do a HCF to get a fb, although only QCF is required. but that doesn’t matter.

if you play a lot of ryu and get used to that (who doesn’t start with ryu??), the first time you learn sim it’s going to be major pain because to throw a fb from block position you’ll get a yoga flame out.

i spent all my time fine tuning my motion so i can still get fb out in a reasonable fast manner, even from block position.
and then spent another significant amount of time with yoga flame so i can get it out consistently as well

kind of like once you learning typing you don’t look at the keyboard anymore.

and now playing HDR sim i’m like typing on a foreign keyboard, lol.

on paper gief gets all buffs so if jodim is a beast in ST, he can absolutely destroy fools in HDR

note that SPD can still be executed with 270, and i bet my xbox360 that jodim is spd’ing with 270 instead of the new motion.

super is where will mess up your game if you are used to 720, and if jodim doesn’t use super there is nothing much that would mess him up.

gief is not my main, so if i learn him super is one of the thing that i need to master. since it is so different in HDR than all other capcom games, I’m not going to learn gief in HDR.

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Here are some things I’ve learned in my life regarding this game:

  1. In this game specifically, I no longer see tiers as a representation of a character’s overall effectiveness, but rather as the level of skill required to use them. I’ve seen that every…single…character can be as effective and deadly as any other. The lower tier character’s who have the most difficult execution, also have the most effective and hard to escape moves. That’s the trade off. Once you can break that execution barrier, these characters can become easier to win with than the top tiers, and it’s one of the greatest feelings in life for me personally. Not the winning, but that moment of breaking and conquering the execution barrier. Other times I’ve had that feeling was landing my first kick flip, and completing the strafe jump training map in Quake 4, and I wouldn’t, in a million years, give that up for easier execution. Because to do that, I might never know that feeling.

  2. Execution is the most important aspect of the meta game. It restricts you psychologically to what you can and can’t do in a particular situation, as well as what your opponent may or may not be able to do, which is often directly related to that move’s effectiveness. It also demands great respect from your opponent when they are able to execute at the most demanding level. This is equivalent to the level of respect one might give their opponent if they were killed with a close range rocket, or a rail gun from the other side of the map.

  3. Remix was made because someone felt the execution was too hard for certain characters, ignorant of the subtleties that made these characters among the most satisfying to play in a fighting game ever. For the casual player, fine, but to any competitor, I don’t see how you can look yourself in the mirror when you KNOW that the original execution was possible to master if you only put in the time, no matter how long it took. But now that it’s easier, you suddenly consider yourselves competitors on the same level as those who understand what it truly means to play this game. It’s like playing on a regulation court in the NBA, or playing in your driveway with the rim lowered so you can feel like you’re doing the amazing things that you’ve seen.

  4. There’s a direct correlation between the design of the controls and a move’s execution. Altering the controller alters the intended difficulty of the execution. Keeping the metaphor alive, I suppose this is equivalent to making a basketball smaller so it’s easier to hold, but now it’s also easier to dribble and get through the rim.

  5. What you think you know about this game, you don’t know until you go to Japan. Some of you mention there is nothing more to discover in ST, when in fact, for you personally, there is everything to discover. And even after you’ve discovered that, there’s still more, and it never gets old.

BZ, out!

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  1. Gave up playing HDR & then enter Evo & get all sandy calling characters broken cuz you were not prepared on your matchup.

You almost seem to have a scrub mentality, "oh the only reason why this guy beat me was cuz the motions are easier!..Are you for real, that sounds like an a very sandy copout of not putting the time to learn the game.

Great thing about SF2 is that there is a counter to everything in the game! You just got to keep on learning & stop crying!

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Or just wait for someone to make it easier again, as your breed seemingly prefers. Don’t you see how everything you just said is exactly what HDR is in relation to ST? And if you understood the timeline, you would know that I called out certain characters after the first capcom fight club before the game was released, and again a few weeks before evo on the srk podcast.

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You called it out as a spectator not as a player. If you ask the “breed” HDR community if you think “Gief” is broken pretty much all of them will laugh at you. When you posted what you posted in the Snakeeye congratulation thread, people thought you account was hacked, cuz is was pretty damn ridiculous claim. If Gief was so broken why didn’t you use him in Evo? I mean didn’t you prove point w/ akuma? Why not Gief?

Could it possibly be, that the people who put so much time & effort in playing the game they love found new things & leveled up? Playing each year round & leveling each other up…Meanwhile the OG stop playing & keep relying on what they know about ST & still expect to win?

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You are incredibly misinformed on almost everything you post about. I’m sending you a pm so as not to derail this thread.

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@rcaido,you can now join the other 2-3 people in this thread that couldnt control themselves, everyone else is having a pretty good intelligent chat, dont you feel a little embarrassed with yourself for acting like this?

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Actually why would i be embarrass, im just posting how i feel…Damdai posted it in a subtle way that HDR is babyzone & i post straight up telling him to learn the new game. There is nothing else to add, you guys can go back to discussing why SF2 is dying, which i dont see at all. I think HDR will continue to grow & ST will always have its followers cuz lets face it those who appose to the other game will never switch. Its just the middle people who’s left to choose which side they want to continue playing SF2 at.