Thoughts on ST in Tougeki SBO & Japan

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
101

^^^^^ See here is the thing… I am gon?na say it, some might not like to hear it… :razz:

Many of Cali’s major ST players/supporters (myself included, yes the truth can hurt) are a bit hypocritical. We say we love ST, get it back, no more HDR, ST> HDR, etc. etc. etc… But we don’t show up for events. For me it is difficult to make evens due to my life obligations. I think the intent is there. But when push comes to shove we just don’t do it. Not like you EC guys at least.

It’s almost like, if “they” can get the scene back, I am totally down to play it. But, I think some of us shy away when we see the amount of work it?s going to take to change the status quo.

DG&V gets mad props, they are trying their damndest to get the scene going, so they are not in the category. Many players seem to be a bit ambivalent about it as well, they don’t seem to have a preference either way (Skankin Garbage, Mad possum, BTC) , or they just prefer HDR (Milo, Aqua snake, EA Gameman). So it is tough to gain momentum.

102

lol how can that be.

But I understood. CPS2 is not easy to obtain and the setup can be messy.

Also I never thought so many people are having problems with emulator and / or ggpo.

All my friends can run them on the first try with various computer configurations and OSes.

But I do believe now that it is a pain in the ass for a lot of people.

So for folks like DGV, HDR is the only option that he can play currently.

It’s not that. It is human nature to resist changes.

Even if HDR plays like ST but just with the music changed, some people would still not like it (myself included).

So if HDR is your first exposure to ST, then you have already grown custom to it and would resist playing another but similar version of ST.

This is an over generalization. Sure people resist changes. But the complaints for HDR from ST players are all valid and well explained (won’t repeat here).

Actually when HDR is about to come out (play test and beta), all the ex-SF2 players are like kids waiting for Christmas to come.

Look at all these OGs who fly in to play test HDR, look at cigarbob’s beta test video on youtube.

Everyone is very excited for a new SF2.

And yet after the initial excitement, more and more stuffs are found to be disappointing.

Sirlin always said “a,b,c (low-tier) are clearly better, x,y,z (high-tier) are clearly worst, what are these people thinking?”

There are many subtle details that are better in the original that is now not as good in HDR (won’t repeat).

The whole package just doesn?t add up as a solid game as ST.

Anyway, play whatever version you like.

(PS it seems people actually love flame wars; they like VF4 to post, grab some popcorn, sit back and watch ^^)

103

One should note that these are opinions. Many many people on this board would highly disagree with those two statements you shared.

I really really like this quote though,

and you can just as easily take out “version” with “game” and we’d have the happiet, most constructive FG community ever :rock:

104

Sounds like a law firm on channel 13.

At the law offices of DG&V we can help you get out of jail for harrasing your girl friend at 3 in the morning no matter if you were drunk or on drugs !

105

djfrjoles? In my HDR forum?

106

I think you were missing my inductive point here which is I, in fact believe, that any changes would be anathema to those who love ST to the point where they will not play HDR and that the arguments they make in favor of their game are largely rooted in appeals to tradition and history, i.e. it was this X way and X way was just fine. I believe most of the arguments against HDR originate from this sort of traditional appeal and to listen for example to John Rambo and Ganelon, (I’ve never met John Rambo but I do respect Ganeleon a great deal as a player and thinker on the topic) I find their arguements in favor of arcade ST understandable but ultimately rooted in this appeal to the way it was done before as a ‘better’ way of doing things. I understand the logic of the argument, I just disagree with their conclusion and that’s fine and I think that’s part of what this thread has become. Like I said, that for me is because in large part I never played on an arcade cabinet, I never really understood fighting games beyond button mashing until recently, and those traditional appeals do not resonate with me. Of course I would expect them to resonate with someone like CigarBob for example who to my understanding actually has a working ST cabinet set up in his house…

You can’t claim its human nature to resist change (which is only partially true, we resist change when that change directly puts our values and basic understandings into question, otherwise, people tend to be highly adaptive and for the most part rational) and then talk about how many people were so excited about the possible changes in the Beta only to be let down. That would seem to imply that it was the ‘wrong’ set of changes and not the fact that there ‘were’ changes. To hear the most vocal critics of HDR it doesn’t seem to me to be about the ‘wrong’ changes but about ‘any’ changes at all and certainly if someone who arguest for ST would like to come correct me on that I more than welcome that correction to my understanding on the issue, but when you say as more and more things were discovered the more and more disappointment grew, that leads me to believe my analysis was correct.

When I talk about keeping ST to themselves, I’m talking for the people who don’t have and will never have access to their ideal SF2 environment, i.e. the ST arcade cabinet. I could be wrong, there may be one in Chicago somewhere but outside that I’m sure the nearest ST cabs are probably in Tennessee where they held the SBO qualifiers and my time is way too valuable to drive 6 to 7 hours to play on an arcade ST cab when I have a 360 in my house.

But in the end this entire debate comes down to one argument and it has to be the argument against the attitude of “play what you want”. The SF2 community simply isn’t large enough regionally or nationally to support multiple versions of SF2 and to keep any level of interest from the FGC currently outside the SF2 loop. Its confusing. You go to a tournament X player won ST arcade and Y player won HDR and to most people the differences between the gameplay of the two isn’t enough to differentiate them so it causes confusion. “What version of SF2 should I jump into?” It’s to confusing for new entrants into the scene to know what they should in fact be playing if their goal is to be competitive even if both versions were equally available and they are not. Like I said earlier, when Ganeleon says in a previous post “I don’t know what SF2 players in the midwest are going to do” that basically says “EC we’ll play ST, WC go ahead and play HDR, MW… sorry you’re screwed.” It just doesn’t seem like a reasonable choice so I personally have a vested interested in seeing people not play “whatever they want” but playing the most accessible version of SF2 in North America so I personally have a game to play and play at a high level when I am able.

And when you say that my bias for HDR is that I played it first and am biased because its what I learned, sure that may be the case, but I’ve already said that I am more than willing to play a newer version of SF2 as well because its moving forward and there are things to discover. I don’t feel like there’s any room to do that in arcade ST but there still is I think in HDR and would be in any new version that might ever be released.

Oh and I think VFF is the funniest guy on SRK. I have said it multiple times, I think his knowledge of SF history might be unparalleled, his ability to argue and make points is great. The way he does it is so angry and spiteful it just reminds me of every angry New York sports fan I’ve ever met, which is ironic because according to his bio he’s a sportswriter from New York. So yeah, I wish I could watch say VFF debate in a lincoln douglas type format say Thelo on ST vs. HDR. Thelo would walk in with a big smile on his face and make his points and be really polite but firm about it and VFF would start his arguement and he’d make a point, take a second to talk about what an idiot you are, then make another point, then insult you some more and completely ignore every counter arguement, I think he’s great.

107

Some are opinions, some are facts.

About the `Many many people’ : There are Many Many more people than the Many people on this board would agree though, and I have shown a small sample size of that.

But like I said, if you are on the other camp, I respect your opinion and I’m not trying to win you over. Go play HDR.

That’s a good line to bait vf4 to post. ST is not a perfect game and none of the games out there are perfect.

If your goal is to have a near perfect SFII game you can just spend all your time waiting.

ST however is 90% good enough and there is no need to change (and potentially breaks other stuff) is what VF4 will probably tell you.

It’s a video game. You play because you like it. What are you talking about?
We are not trying to find a cure for cancer here. If that’s the case, yeah I can tolerate a lot of things to get it done (like doing something I don’t like).

But force me to play a game that I dont prefer (assuming if that is the only way to do it, which is false) to save the scene as a whole? To quote cigarbob I’d rather read a book.

You know what, if all arcades in japan closed down, ST is dead (if there are no drastic move from capcom). There is no point for anyone to continue to become competitive in ST (to beat the best of the best in the world).

Even I love the game so much, I’d have to let it go, and do something else.

You got me really confused for against the idea of play whatever version/game you like.

The EC guys are happily playing ST, enjoying themself, and WC guys have regular gathering of HDR and are having fun.

That’s the whole point of playing a video game (or sport).

108

Look back a papasi’s post, everyone was very excited for hdr and most of the st supporters have put huge amounts of time into hdr before making their choice. To speak for myself, i played hdr heavily for a year (im sure i played many of you peeps on xbl), the only time i touched super turbo throughout all of 2009 was at MWC.(many will share a similar story with you) My opinion is not based on tradition(i did catch the very end of the arcade era, but i have always been more of a console guy) but on what i feel is the better game after playing both quite extensively, its kind of insulting to state that i base my choices on random tradition and not what i feel is best.

instead of trying to analyze why people feel a certain way towards each game, the people that want to actually travel to tournaments to play competetively need to have an adult conversation about what can be done for our future, the people that only want to play online and post on this website can have their own party.

109

Silver Rain 007: Well, I’m just not sure of the midwest SF2 scene in general because there’s little online info. I remember immortal went to a lot of tourneys in 2008 and that there used to be some comp in Minnesota. But midwest players rarely post online so I’m not sure what their scene has involved (sort of like how there’s a consistent MD/VA scene and not-so-consistent Philly scene but nobody else posts). I know for certain Ohio has a cab somewhere. IIRC, someone in MN has a cab too. I’m not sure if Arcade UFO in Austin, TX has ST but that’s an easy option if people wanted to play it. I’d imagine some individual collectors have it too, like stevetren in Kentucky. Does anyone play on the ST cabs besides the one in Ohio? Does anyone gather offline to play HDR? I’m clueless each way, which is why I’ll need more info to make an assessment.

The goal when having arcade ST is to force regular gatherings where players can often participate and practice (ideally weeklies). The only 5 regular SF2 gatherings in the US to my knowledge are:

-CPS2 ST casuals at Howard’s place in CT
-CPS2 ST Xanbat casuals in Bmore
-HDR tourneys at Wed Fight Nights in LA
-HDR ranbats in LA
-HDR casuals with Sirlin in SF

If there are more consistent, regular gatherings, that would be great to hear. I know Seattle and southern VA used to have gatherings but that they died off.

But anyway, having CPS2 ST forces players to participate in offline gatherings to be familiar with the game, which I think is key to building a healthy and competitive scene. That’s why there’s such a push to get danisen battles going at Howard’s place and instill a skill system where participants would want to come and play to improve (not unlike World’s Finest’s use of the top 10 players chart and weekly tourneys). But here, IINM, there’s no monetary cost outside of travel so it’s all for fun without pressure to put $20 up each time. I know you tried weekly online HDR events, Silver Rain, but online gatherings just don’t hold up, at least in part because there’s no personal camaraderie and there’s always the factor of lag/cheats.

Folks in SoCal already have a good model with weekly tourneys and biweekly ranbats. How are HDR players practicing for those nowadays? Online has almost as many issues as different versions. I reckon they just play online when they can and be sure to adapt at the gatherings. Either that or they play exclusively at the gatherings. CPS2 ST works the same way. There are differences switching versions like I mentioned in my thoughts but that’s probably unavoidable since it’s really hard to get daily offline comp anywhere.

As difficult as it may be, some HDR fans really have to be more open and give things a chance. Everyone gave HDR a fair chance. And now it’s ST’s turn again in some areas. I brought up the goal of having a unified version to make sure everyone knows that’s the the ideal but like I said, we’ve given that a try and it’s been less successful in some regions than others. Why the pessimism over players going back to their preferred version when nobody actually affected is disagreeing?

Like Rambo implied, look around you in this forum. Who lives on the EC and plays offline is actually against CPS2 ST? No matter our opinions, nobody was for replacing HDR back when there was a large number of participants. We had 50+ at an HDR tourney in VA and honestly, I thought it was great and that perhaps a new age would arise. But times changed quickly, numbers fell to <10, and no amount of convincing will change the upcoming course of the scene. But maybe with enough action, a convergence can be made down the line.

110

Oh I’ll tell you bout the MW scene from what I seen…

SF Fuckin 4!

111

I gotta say, it’s really great to see this discussion going on in a civilized manner. At first, I was concerned it was going to turn into the usual drivel, but it didn’t. So, I guess we are making progress :tup:

I’ll try to field a few of the SoCal questions:

  • Yes, we mostly just practice online between gatherings.

  • Yes, there is some adjustment to make between online/offline. However, two things help with that: 1)We have offline gatherings often enough that the transition becomes more familiar to deal with. 2)I honestly think online XBL to offline XBL requires less adjustment than any other practice to tourney switch. Console to arcade always felt weird to me. GGPO to DC ST probably falls in the middle, IMO.

  • Just for the record, we’ve done more than just the Classic HDR trial at the beginning of this season of ranbats. In our last season, there were quite a few times where we ran both an HDR and a CPS2 ST tourney. We mostly did ST ones for kicks and often used weird (but very fun!) rules, like each person using a locked 2 character team, actual team tournaments, or my personal favorite - loser keeps character but gets to pick the winners character. But sometimes we ran a standard one. They were are all a blast!

  • Even when we don’t hold an ST side tourney, we still always play casuals on the ST head-to-head Japanese cab they have there.

  • I think most/all of us would be perfectly fine holding more serious ST tournaments if even a handful of the ST fans showed up with even a hint of consistency.

  • We mostly focus on HDR for a few reasons: 1)We want to practice for Evo, which only runs next-gen console games 2)Most of us either like, or are indifferent, to the changes in HDR 3)We have a handful of new players that have joined us because of HDR 4)The OG ST guys(Valle, Watson, etc.) don’t really play either game anymore because they either too busy in their personal life or are focused on SF4.

I can’t speak for everyone down here, so hopefully I didn’t misrepresent us, but I think that about sums us up. I could hazzard a guess as to the state of things in NorCal, but there’s enough guys from there that are active on here, so it’s probably better if they speak to that. Also FWIW, it sounds like somewhat recently there has been a bit of an HDR scene starting to grow somewhere in Florida. I know that I$$AC is involved in that, but that’s about all I know. Not sure if they have regular tournaments, or a ranbat, or what.

While it might not be an ideal end-goal, I think fostering more acceptance and cooperation between the HDR and ST crowds is perhaps a good place to start. We all love SF2. And we’d all like to see our community continue to grow and level up. Maybe just figuring out a way to bring this community back together so that it feels like a single community, who happens to acknowledge that we’re playing two different flavors at the moment, is something to shoot for? Rational and civilized discussions like this are certainly a good start :karate:

112

i don’t know the how authentic? to the arcade feel it is, jason wilson has a ST machine down here in TN. Unfortunately, all they play is SFIV down here for the most part. They only did ST for the SBO qualifiers.

I really want to get down there and play with them tho, regardless of what game they are playing.

113

I’m pretty close to that. I don’t have any version of ST I’ve ever been able to play properly very much - I also have some issues with GGPO & PC emulation, nothing huge, just never feels as good as HDR on 360. I’m very similar to Silver Rain 007, except that I did play all the SF2 games on consoles and arcades when I got the chance back in the day - which on arcades was a rare thing. But yeh, I basically see HDR as the best version of SF2 and the one with the most future for any kind of ‘scene’ in the UK, so it’s a no-brainer to play it for me, and no reason to switch to anything else.

114

So you are saying vf4 is worthless, good work.

He also likes to say things not based in reality. For example, I was told by him that I hate super turbo, when I was on ggpo, playing super turbo. You can find examples of this in many places, he is kind of a joke tbh.

Also after this will be page long vf4 post saying nothing blah blah blah

115

DUDE… ^^^^^ This needs to stop. Please. Any time we trash poeple in the forum. NOTHING GOOD EVER COMES FROM IT. If we are going to actually grow the scene. Then we need to start doing the right things in here. PLEASE. Otherwise, I am out. And I am sure others would decide to go there own way as well.

116

I like HDR, but and I’d probably continue to play it casually if there were no ST, and if there were consistent online competition in HDR (sorry folks, kick-starting a Maui ST scene probably ain’t gonna happen), but for me it definitely is not a game that I could play with the same kind of fervor that I have approached ST with.

And no, this does not come from some affection for tradition or resistance to change. I only played ST briefly in arcades when I was in High School, shortly before becoming completely sucked into Alpha 2. Aside from that, ST was ignored by me until GGPO, and even then only shortly before the release of HDR (within a few months). So I played both side-by-side for a long while, and have grown to love ST, while I don’t feel nearly as strongly for HDR.

Contrary to another popular belief, it also isn’t because “my favorite character got nerfed.” I play Dee Jay, Cammy, and N. Sagat. Not losing a whole lot of power moving over to HDR on that bunch.

It’s funny, actually, because I recall once mentioning on Sirlin’s forums that I prefer ST (as part of a polite discussion; I’ve never been the sort to outright hate on HDR–I think it’s a fantastic game, just not my preferred version), and Sirlin responded with a snarky comment about how I preferred throw loops, repeat wall-dive crossups, and O. Sagat fireball BS, which is not true at all. If the only things changed were along those lines, I’d probably be pretty happy with the game, though admittedly I’m not sure that those things needed to be changed as badly as some folks think. Thing is, there are changes I like in HDR, and changes I don’t like. If my choice is between throw loops, repeat wall-dive crossups, and O. Sagat BS vs. those things changed along with all the other changes in HDR though? Yeah, I prefer the former.

117

I have spoken to VF4 on GGPO and he’s a normal, nice guy. His forum persona is hilarious IMO.

118

Every single time i read about an ST player talking about why they prefer ST to HDR and they talk about changes it in such general terms:

“Thing is, there are changes I like in HDR, and changes I don’t like. If my choice is between throw loops, repeat wall-dive crossups, and O. Sagat BS vs. those things changed along with all the other changes in HDR though? Yeah, I prefer the former.”

"There are many subtle details that are better in the original that is now not as good in HDR (won’t repeat).

“The whole package just doesn?t add up as a solid game as ST.”

And i am sure there are tons more examples throughout this thread. I wonder if i will ever get a clear answer from the ST side about just what changes it is they don’t like. At the very least beyond esthetic changes.

On the other hand the one thing i feel is lacking in HDR is O.Ken who is kinda fun to play.
Beyond that i feel HDR is superior as a game in every regard.

On the matter of HDR vs ST as a tournament game i don’t really see the problem.
Why exactly does the ST community need HDR players to build up their scene again ?
It much relates to what Fatboy said earlier about ST players just wanting HDR players to do their work for them.
I remember a clear example from when DGV and the players from his area arranged for an ST event instead of HDR because all the ST players kept talking about wanting it and then nobody shows up for it besides HDR players.
I think if the proponents of ST want to build up a strong “scene” for it again the effort and action needs to come from them, Not from the HDR community and arguing with the HDR community over how “ST deserves it’s chance” and similar appeals are pointless.

Get a bunch of enthusiasts together who own cabs/dreamcast consoles if you can’t stand classic mode and create an event.
I think that will be far more successful than trying to change current HDR events into ST events.

119

Well you’re never going to get a unified answer, because we all have different changes we dislike. That’s why many see doing a remixed version as such a problematic endeavor in the first place–you’re never going to get a consensus on what should and should not be changed, so you’re guaranteed to make somebody unhappy. I’m not saying it shouldn’t have been made, though. I’m not holding any resentment toward HDR. I am perfectly happy that it’s there for those who like the changes presented, and I’m able to continue playing the version I prefer just fine. It is a shame that it seems to have created such a rift, though.

120

To be fair though, that’s exactly what the EC crowd has done. I’m not sure if it was their dwindling numbers for HDR tournaments or them banding together to train for SBO quals, but whatever sparked it, the fact is that those guys have been playing a lot of arcade ST. Those guys won the SBO quals and played respectably in Japan and now they are running an arcade ST event at a major mid-west tourney. I applaud them for their effort in supporting the game they love.

So, at least in the US, the state of affairs is that there are pockets of people on the west coast that get together regularly offline to play HDR and there are pockets of people on the east coast that play arcade ST. There are probably smaller pockets, or less vocal pockets, that play each game too (I know Vegas likes ST and Florida has some HDR going). Then, the rest of the country is mostly online play, and that too I’m sure is split to some degree. On top of all that, there are two main events each year that I think we’d all like to see us continue to level up our performance in: Evo (Console HDR) and SBO (Arcade ST).

As it stands, I see two strong scenes. It’d be nice if we all played the same version, but for various reasons I don’t see that happening any time soon. For the last year, it’s felt like we have two different crowds of people playing two entirely different games. There’s some crossover, but that’s what it’s felt like. In truth, the games are 90% the same and we almost all prefer SF2 over all the other games. That’s why what I’d like to see us do is bury the hatchet and start trying to act like a more unified community, even if ST is the game of choice at some tournaments and HDR is the game of choice at others. And at each of those, there’s no reason we can’t run the other as a side tournament and all support that version too for fun. I really think this needs to be the first step to re-unifying our scene.