Thoughts on ST in Tougeki SBO & Japan

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
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I definitely hope this thread continues as some great points of discussion have been brought up.

Papasi: The newest FBA emulator found on GGPO doesn’t have input delay…however there is still one huge variable that is often neglected…the joysticks/pads in relation with a pc. Everyone’s pc is different, thus they handle joysticks differently. I’ve talked to quite a few people who experience input delay when they use their TE sticks on both XP and Win7. On my end, I’ve tried my TE stick, Hrap3, hrap2 with (pelican & sumitomo adapters), and my arcade stand (which uses a wired 360 pad), yet I still experience button delay compared to playing on console. Mind you, I’m talking about offline emulator play with several LCD montiors (Asus included). The only definitive way to truly minimize input delay on the PC, regardless of what brand of pc you have would be to get an older pc with XP Service pack 1 that has a parallel port. You would then need to use the parallel port driver in conjuction with having your stick/pad modified with a parallel port. All this under the assumption the actual driver recognizes your current pad/stick…you have to remember that those drivers were last supported over 5 years ago. I’m sure someone will mention the idea of increasing your usb poll rates. There were numerous threads on this site (tech section) and others about how that didn’t always work and led to unforseen consequences for all other usb devices.

IMO that’s why using an emulator is not a practical option. At least with console, they are fewer variables to control (just the monitor).

Also, regarding the Jamma adapter. The adapter only supports Psx hardware, what about the players who play 360 pads? Not unless a player is using a 360 to ps3 adapter and then still has to find a ps3 to ps2/ps1 adapter…and hope there’s no lag. The wiring for all of that would look like a mess ~_^ assuming it can even be done.

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DGV, you’re the only one (or two) that I know that have constant problems with gaming on the PC.

I understand what you said but none of the people that I know personally have experienced those problems.

Maybe next time you should return your PC/laptop immediately if they don’t run your games of choice smoothly ^^

Or if you build your own, then you suck at picking components ^^

Seriously though, I have been talking about this idea for a long time.

Capcom should buy out either ggpo or one of the emulator IP. They own the ROMs so they can easily sell the complete arcade collections of their games on the PC.

With a proper product development and QA, consumer buying a capcom PC game on the shelf would have a much higher chance that it will work properly on their computer.

But at best they probably only break even with this given how expensive to delivery a well-tested product.

However, they can make sure that their classics will live on forever and they gain some royal fan’s support for life.

Actually I wonder if Final Fight Double Impact that they released on XBL with GGPO netcode isn’t one of these hybrid. It feels like it is running arcade rom on emulator to me.

In fact, CCC2 is their earlier attempt. They failed but they should learn from their mistake and do it right the next time instead of giving up. At least current emulator doesn’t lag anymore.

I sure hope that capcom buy out GGPO and convert it to like battle.net (buy game, use bnet for free) or even monthly fee of $5 like XBL. They can probably outsource the sales and inventory to steam too (like SF4 PC).

Then there is no donate button on the front page and I have a warm body to call and yell at when I cannot connect with someone or when GGPO decides to rage reset the chat room.

Where is the troll named Ono when we need him?

Hey ponder, are you lurking? Ask S-kill to talk to his boss and his boss and his boss. Cash out your millions in addition to the millions that you already had. And throw a EVO street fighter party each year for us!

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I’ll be honest, its HDR or i wont even bother entering…The only other game probably be Hyper Fighting…If there was no HDR i probably would have stop playing video games altogether.

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I’m going to disagree there, papasi. I prefer ST and emulation has been a touchy affair for me, and I say that knowing that it isn’t just myself who feels that way in the pro-ST crowd. I will only speak for myself though and say that even at Evo 2010, the difference between PC Emulation in offline and Cab is drastic. So drastic that when the converter harness was loose, it caused even more confusion during initial ST play. Things only clicked for me once Bang the Machine was shown and Ghaleon had made some much needed adjustments after the controls just outright failed during a set. It made adjusting extremely difficult for a time, there’s a vid of me playing Cammy versus a Sim player at Evo and I do a very basic tick into Hooligan and I sail right over his character’s head instead of grabbing him. I only have my own anecdotal evidence, but every time I’ve tried to play emulator online or off, I have to play with the knowledge that the controls are going to feel different as well as graphical issues that arise. It is difficult to neutral jump Ken’s fireball on FBA for PC if the graphical settings on the computer are wrong.

Overall, I agree with DGV. Regardless of one’s preference, Emulation is not the way to move forward. Sometimes I run GGPO on my Windows 7 computer, but I have to do so with a grain of salt because there are things that I do not know how to adjust in order to remove issues like my input lag on my controller or what I’ve learned to call Ken’s Romulan Hadouken (the flicker of his fireball in certain settings). I think telling someone they suck at building components isn’t the way to approach this problem. Unless there’s some clearly defined guide on what you need to do to have as “perfect of an experience” on emulated ST as possible, it’s going to continue to be based on player preference and personal knowledge. I would love a guide telling me how to avoid the issues of controller lag, even if I overclock my ports or things to avoid in order to maintain decent emulation. I remember Marsgatti and I playing on my laptop at Evo for the first day… when we went to play on day 2 of Evo, there was a significant amount of lag in spite of me not doing anything differently in terms of starting the computer, ensuring the USB ports were clocked at the right voltage/speed.

I am saying, right now, that I have similar/possibly the same issues that DGV is talking about with my emulator/FBA offline experiences. It’s frustrating, it isn’t fun to deal with, I’ve TRIED to make the needed adjustments, and regardless of solutions I try it remains a giant headache to this day with no clear, understandable solutions on my part. Maybe I’m a moron, I’d love to be shown the way, but that’s my personal view. I really don’t want to wait for Capcom to do something based on a hunch related to a platform of play (Personal Computer) that has made me feel like a retard for the past 2-3 years. “Is it the internet? Is it not the internet? Is it my computer? Is it my operating system?”

Shit sucks.

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This is very intresting for me. What is about HDR that you like so much or what you don’t like about ST/Other SF’s that you wouldn’t play at all? Cuz I feel the same exact way if there was NO way for me to play ST.

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Corrosive, understood.

If you read my post carefully, my point was that if it is ggpo + emulator + roms as is right now, the user is responsible for configuring everything (port forwarding, proper roms, emulator version, controller/os compatibility, etc). Basically what your whole post is about.

If it is a properly released product, capcom has QA department to flush out those details before releasing to you. (And that is a big chunk of $ they need to spend on it)

As a consumer, you read the product requirements, make sure your pc /peripherals are supported, buy, install and play.

Capcom’s SF4 implementation on PC is actually fairly good.
I use it for training mode a lot (for the input display).
And I can easily verify if my PC can run it properly before I buy.

BTW, ^^ == :slight_smile: and it was meant as a joke to DGV if none of you can read that ^^

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There’s a significant amount of “I don’t remember seeing that” in that post up there. I’m calling roll back.

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I’d like to co-sign the emulation issues.

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Emulated O Dee Jay is pretty gdlk, though.

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I’m also one of the HDR only players right now and here’s mainly why… I was introduced to SF I believe when SSF2T I think came out for Super Nintendo and loved playin it and got kinda good at it. So I also used to go to arcades a lot when I was little so I went and saw it there and found out the hard way that I suck at usin arcade sticks lol… I seriously could barely do special moves compared to the SNES controller so I only played on consoles for fun against my friends on PS1/2 and SNES for almost every SF game that was released afterwards (Alpha series, EX series, MvC series) and was pretty good at em.

Fast forward to 2007 when I was playin almost only Halo 2 on XBL when a random friend of mine said I could play SF on xbox. So I find out its SF2 HF and get it immediately and pretty much played that only until all the hype was surrounding the release of HDR. So with HF dyin with the anticipation of HDR someone told me about GGPO so DigitalInfamy walked me through the set up for it which seemed like you had to be a computer genius to do and I had to play usin the 360 wired controller which I didn’t like as much as wireless. So I played it for about 2 months and was ok at it. Then HDR came out and I thought everyone was gonna stop playin ggpo for it the same way HF died and I uninstalled GGPO and just been playin HDR since.

Basically I prolly would play ST competitively if I could use the controller of my choice but I don’t think I can. Everyone always says I should use a stick and that id be good with it but I tried and I just suck with it haha so I don’t know… at the same time though I’ve spent little time practicin with sticks since I’ve never owned one and can’t justify payin the ridiculous prices for em to risk not ever bein as good or better on it than I am with pads.

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I really dont know but i guess my story is similar to Royalplush, i started w/ Hyper Fighting & then tried GGPO a bit but for some reason never really liked it. HDR came out & rest is history…If SF EX2 plus Alpha was around i’ll probably play that too! Other then that, nothing else…

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@ Ganelon : Was that aimed at me? If it was, just for the record let it be known, I am not the average SRKer. I actually read the full post before I reply or contribute. :razz: So, I was very aware of those facts. But, thank you reminding me. I always apreciate a helping hand! :tup: I think it is great that all those tournys offer CPS ST and that makes the EC damn lucky bastards. :karate: To be honest, I am very jealous. I wish the WC was on the same page. I commend you guys on going that route. I think you guys repping USA and getting the play time in for SBO was awesome. I love ST and all that it is about. Trust me when I say that.

However, my argument was one about logistics and CPS ST for the nation as a whole. California alone is bigger than all those states you mentioned (plus some) combined. So I think it going to be rather difficult that to try and get the majority of the player base across the U.S. back to play CPS ST.

Shoot, I hope I am wrong. But, I just don’t see it. I mean am I really off here? I’d love yours and other players input on this.

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I’m in the “I’d play either one” camp. I like both, but I feel like might bee too confusing to practice two similar-yet-different games. To compound on that, GGPO ST is an absolute nightmare for some reason (other games run just fine for me), and Evo is supporting HDR, so that’s where I invest my time. But, I consider myself a Street Fighter 2 player, not a ST or HDR player, so whatever the future holds for SF2, I’m probably ready for it.

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^This. I have no desire to be a SF4 player, we need to support SF2 and keep it alive.

I spent all of my college years wasting an obscene amount of time and money on arcade SSF2 and SSF2T. Arcade SF2 is where I’ve sunk most of my time in my life (pretty much quit playing SF after arcades died until SF AE on Xbox1 came out). I only use HAPP sticks because that’s what every SF2 arcade cab had when I played.

That being said, as much as I love arcade ST, HDR is the form of SF2 that I support and prefer for 2 reasons:

1.) It is the version that has the best chance of surviving and allowing SF2 to continue on and grow. The logistics of arcade ST and emulation/GGPO is just to much for most people. I admit that I’m lazy and usually play HDR over ST on GGPO because it’s much easier to just fire up the TV and the 360/PS3 and jump right into some matches (plus I get to sit on my couch, LOL).
Arcades are dead and GGPO is still somewhat of an obscure, niche way to play that lots of people aren’t really aware of. We need to get to new players into SF2, most of us are starting to get to old for this crap.
We have already seen “new, online” players from the this console generation make impacts on the tourney scene. HDR has the best chance to keep that happening.

2.)I actually like most of the changes (except poor Chun’s). It’s great seeing so many Cammy, Fei, Geif, etc. specialists playing and doing well in tournies now. Back in the arcade days you could go months without ever seeing a good Cammy or Fei player, if ever.

But in the end I’d player whatever SF2 version was being played. Heck, I’d play CE if that’s what everyone wanted.

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I would play HDR (or another newer version of SF2) or nothing as well. I mean for me, I hadn’t played a fighting game since MvC2 on my dreamcast and growing up in my small little town where the fact that I could do a simple magic series meant I was unbeatable and didn’t know what Marvel was really all about made that game grow old for me very quickly. I remember playing Championship Edition on my Genesis (or whatever port was put on the Genesis oh so long ago) and then moving onto Super Street Fighter 2 on the Genesis and having fun with it but i never played with other people (being young and growing up in said small town pre internet boom) and was too young to understand the complexities of the game. Well fast forward and I hear about this beta for HD Remix of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo and I thought well you know, maybe I can get in on the ground floor of a game and get okay at it and have fun and when I started playing other people for the first time (even with only three possible matches, Ryu / Ryu , Ken / Ken, and Ryu / Ken) I was hooked and then when the whole thing came out and I was able to play Cammy and all that it was great. I played HDR for a long time before I came on here and realized what ST was all about and why people were so angry and blah blah blah and to be honest, it really turned me off to ever taking ST seriously. Not to mention in Indianapolis there’s not an ST cab anywhere for 700 miles and emulation, as has been mentioned, has issues.

So for me it seemed like ST "purists’ (for lack of a better term) would rather keep their ‘perfect’ gem to themselves while the rest of us wallow in darkness instead of sharing that gem. And honestly, having played the two… I simply like HDR better, I like the way it looks graphically (i know its controversial for some), I like the music (I know half of the people who made remixes for the project thanks to my time at OCRemix), I like the way the game is played (and I know James Chen disagrees with me but I think Remix Cammy is the best SF2 incarnation of Cammy EVER). I mean if a NEW new version of SF2 were to come out would I play it? Probably because it would mean putting everyone back at the beginning and discovering the game again together, and I think for me that’s part of what I love so much about HDR. Listen to John Rambo talk about ST in Japan in his youtube discussion. Tiers don’t matter on the highest of highest of plays because every strategy has been discovered, they’ve played against everything, they know what to do against everything, how much more is there to really learn? HDR changes up the formula enough so that there’s new stuff to learn and for me, that’s much more fun than going backwards through the fourth dimension.

I mean I’m a very conservative person but I’m also fairly young. I know how frustrating young people can find appeals to tradition to be and since I use them more often than not I understand its an uphill battle. But I feel like for ST its ALL about an appeal to tradition. It’s all about harkening back to a bye gone era, and actually what’s worse, you harken back to an era that for the people who live between Nevada and Western Pennsylvania never existed in any meaningful way and so its hard for many new players to find appeals to tradition persuasive when the basis of your appeal has no attachment for us because we do not have that same connection to that past and in my case I have absolutly none, and to be fair, from what I’ve seen of it, I’m not sure I would have wanted to be apart of it.

OBLIGATORY JAB: But, anytime I get to hear my favorite angry sportswriter rant about HDR vs ST (VFF, you’re the angriest smart guy in the room, what can I say), its a good day.

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fatboy: Well, I didn’t really want to elaborate but if people want to have a civil discussion of SF2’s future (with up-to-date circumstances) in this topic then I suppose I’ll indulge that. The point I was disagreeing with was:

CPS2 ST is making a revival on the EC (with gatherings to practice that version as well as tourneys holding it) so that statement is inaccurate. Anyway, CPS2 ST (with converters) may or may not be the path to growth (being more difficult to set up and harder to find) but having tried HDR on both PS3 and then 360 since its release, numbers in EC tourneys temporarily bloomed and then fell back to not even pre-HDR levels. Even casual players who enter SF2 here for fun say they’d rather have ST. I’m sure it’s a different outlook for you Cali guys since I don’t recall any consistent offline scene for SF2 in recent years over on WC (besides Seattle’s ST weeklies) until after HDR.

So while you’ve experienced birth and growth from HDR for the first time since AE was hot, everywhere else in the country hasn’t been so fortunate, even with more events. For us, HDR hasn’t given us the best chance to survive because neither older nor newer tourney players prefer HDR (in fact, chances are higher that ST survives in our region because of this fact). I’m not sure how there came to be a difference between coasts in version mentality and in the number of HDR players showing up but that’s the reality right now. I recall mentioning months ago that HDR’s potential audience (based on online interest) wasn’t being reflected in tourneys and that unless we saw turnout, we’d move away; so here we are trying this new CPS2 ST approach and seeing what happens.

As for player base, California’s actual state size may be bigger but that really doesn’t matter. Otherwise, we should follow Alaska and Texas in not playing SF2 at all. On that note, for midwest players, I’m sorry that I don’t know what your SF2 options are; even HDR gatherings seem to be few and far between. It would be interesting to hear how immortal practices over in IN. Anyway, Cali’s overall population for its size is relatively sparse in comparison compared to the northeast. But that doesn’t matter either because it’s the actual player base that counts. Cali’s active scenes are the only reason I still have some hope for HDR.

But it’s a little ridiculous to constantly say ST is unfeasible and dead when that’s exactly what EC has been moving to. Rather than immediately thinking of a split as a civil war, it’s better if we consider ourselves to be barometers on the SF2 scene. We’ve been hand-in-hand in HDR support since the version was released (to the point where ST for over a year was only available at MWC and on the side at Evo) so we all gave it a fair chance. Diverging a bit at this junction can be considered an experiment in player interest (however regional). If ST doesn’t result in any fewer entrants here and newer entrants flake out in your area, please give CPS2 ST a try (I know you all have that option). And believe me, if you manage to grow HDR a fair amount while we falter, on behalf of other EC players, we’ll definitely consider giving HDR another chance.

Also, if online HDR players in the northeast ever decide to show up en masse to a tourney, just let us know and I’m sure we’d be willing to accommodate their preferred version. But for now, like Rambo mentioned, there have been a steady stream of upcoming ST players over the years, so we’ll keep the light on for them and see how that works out. Mars and Arthur are our 2 latest examples of players who’ve had just as much fun with CPS2 ST when they’ve been able to play it. Nobody wants to see SF2 dead; I trust every offline player to want to keep the scene strong and at the same time enjoy the game he’s playing to the fullest.

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Immortal practices on HDR XBL and GGPO. I live in Indianapolis, he lives in Fort Wayne which is about 90 minutes away. Michigan has a few SF2 players but they’re spread out across the state pretty well. The problem is between the coasts, geography matters. For the vast majority of players the only way to get substantial time playing is to play online. That is our option and when we have tournaments around here some people show up. MWC had a decent HDR showing, historically in Indianapolis we run I think two tourneys a year and they do okay, not great but okay.

I will say I do like SB:R’s high stakes SF2 approach and I think that may draw more people back to tournament SF2 for players who may have walked away from the game to move onto other things for whatever reason.

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I am also in the “I will play either HDR-ST” Camp, but will add that I never got into GGPO. I just never really like how it felt and was laggy for me for some reason. Like DGV I feel input delays, so I just never installed it again.

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You konw most of my misunderstnadings with my GF come from the fact that we are think we are understanding exactly what the other person is saying, but really we’re not. :sweat:

So, without trying explain my point again and trying to explain where I think my point was misunderstood. I’ll leave it be. It’s mostly sumantics anyway, and no point in trying to debate the finer detials.

I am actually on your side on this. I’d love to revive ST (for the WC at least). However, I believe (without a ton of work and effort) for a substantial part of the SF2 community (out side of the North East and the 13 or so who play in Seattle), getting regular CPS ST exposure and gametime may prove difficult.

But, in the spirt of the first sentence of your last post:

I hope this thread can continue to have a good conversation about it.:tup: You bring some excellent points in your post. I really like:

**** I really like this.

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OK, my bad for misunderstanding then. But it’s like I said. Nothing gets through clearly online. Not opinions, nor SF2 matches. Gotta take it offline. :smile:

To be fair, DGV did give HDR classic a try at a SoCal ranbat but apparently, nobody preferring ST showed up when that happened (not unlike our problem with HDR players in the EC). Superguns are easy to bring but I’m not sure if converters are available so having CPS2 ST probably isn’t worthwhile over there unless the turnout numbers start dropping or you’re feeling experimental. Like I said, Cali seems to have a thing going for HDR so it may not be wise to disrupt that just to get a couple OGs back. But it’s just something to always keep on your minds, just as HDR is on ours. A common version is certainly something worth trying for.