If you care about the “Super Street Fighter II Turbo” in “Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix” and don’t bother checking the ST board here, I’ve just listed my thoughts on SBO here: http://shoryuken.com/f223/thoughts-st-tougeki-sbo-japan-252197/
Was really necessary to post a ST topic in HD remix section?
I thought it was interesting.
I’d say it was necessary because there are people who play both games but only really check out the HDR forum. I am one of them and the heads up is appreciated.
Thanks for the post, Ganelon.
Interesting. Sad to see the obligatory “US needs to forget about HDR” and “Online doesn’t mean anything” comments, but other than that nice write up.
Edit: Dismayed to see that most Japanese arcades use Seimitsu sticks over Sanwa. Must be because they are cheaper?
out of curiosity, what is the status of JPN evolution? awhile back they mentioned that the format for evo, etc would be held and done in japn. i haven’t seen anything new as far as info for that. but with regards to HDR, since it’s evo (and i assume, being run by the same people who do evo every year in vegas), i’m wondering if there is a push to try and have an HDR tournament in jpn. this i think would actually be good on so many levels.
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we get to see this game actually played there, by them in a tournament setting
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this actually gives more exposure to HDR in jpn. who knows, they might actually like it and actually try and push for an arcade release. i mean, if enough fan reaction was made for ssf4 to be release on arcade (when initially it wasn’t even considered) then i would think anything is possible.
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after skimming the SBO summary from ganelon, when he mentioned that there were alot of AE machines set up, but no scene for the game, i would think that if HDR machines were in place, there would actually be a decent scene, or at least definitely much better than AE
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let’s face it, seeing HDR in a japanese arcade would be something new for them. why wouldn’t they try it and build a competitive community for it? the game is very similar but with updated graphics, new things to learn, and i think a lot more characters have a better chance of being able to compete vs the rest of the cast
It seems inevitable that every thread would eventally involve a ST vs HDR discussion.
I guess if we don’t make it into personal attacks, it is okay.
Here’s what john rambo said about the SFII scene and the difference between JPN & US, and how US players (in general) love to pick top tiers and easy to use characters.
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I guess if US SFII players’ reaction to HDR can be used as a reference, the JPN players’s response to HDR would probably more like this:
Prefer ST :
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Don’t have a preference, will play either
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Would prefer HDR over ST
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[PS: Why is ganelon’s comment obligatory? You seem to imply that he said it just to piss people off?
It seems that people are mad that ganelon and damdai have jumped ship. They are not entitled to what they think is better?
Also it is possible that capcom jpn is in one of these 3 camps]
sup, studtrooper. Well, original Japanese SF2 cabs had Seimitsus since WW. As many western people just can not play on different sticks and also based on the fact that Seimitsus and Sanwas have different activation distances and action (maximum distance you can move them), I would take a (perhaps not so) wild guess and say with a different hardware people would have issues with certain motions they have mastered over the years. I would go further and straight up state that being used to a stick type is far more important than its quality. I have played SSF2X on a cab today with bad quality copies of Happ’s super joyticks and barely missed any juice kicks, while with my TE I mess half the DPs and around 95% of the backwards juice kicks on P2 side. I say if they are used to Seimitsus, FFS leave them with Seimitsus.
At snk-player: They are so used to the game they can win with bad characters. But that does not mean tiers do not matter (I do not agree with John here): D and Otochun lost to an O.Sagat and that is what’s expected from that match-up. Screw if they have lost, in a way, but as I like watching good shotos I was expecting to see more around and having both D and Aniken out early did disappoint me.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Can anyone deny the advantage Honda has over Blanka? We know the game well enough that when we look at their movesets we can say Honda simply has way better options than Blanka. But if a Blanka wins 10-0 vs a Honda does that suddenly mean that our evaluation is wrong? That’s silly especially with the collective experience we have in this game and it’s matchups. It just means that in this scenario the Blanka player is just flat out better.
Those matchup rankings assume two players of equal skill who can employ all their options after all. If one of these two factors is missing the results won’t reflect the matchup score. And with all due respect I’m not surprised Rambo is inferior to a player like Pony. That’s the reason Pony was able to take those matches, not because matchups are fiction, they are not.
ok ill post.
i came to japan with a firm belief that character A will beat character B, after playing in the arcades i have now formed the opinion that its just not the case at this higher level than we currently experience here. counter-matches that i saw where a grind for both players and results would evenly go the way you would not expect.(as a spectator they were also extremely great matches to watch)
now a big part of this is because of their attitude as i adressed in my vids above, but another thing to consider is their tournament structure vs ours. we are taught that we should find counter matches because our system allows it and also we focus way too much on tier lists, while they are forced to stick to one character in their format. they are pushed to learn all matches. now think about what would happen if we could only choose one character in our tournies…how many people would decide to master cammy or thawk, they do this in japan becasue they believe they can win any matchup and enjoy the difficulty of trying and as their results show many times these guys are successful. we will not be succesful against the japanese as long as we hold onto this defeatist attitude, i often wonder if people talking on this website have even played some of these “bad” matchups or are just repeating what they have been told. i used to buy into this stuff as well, i would never play sim against a claw at tourney, but i was forced to learn the match before sbo quals in tn and i did better against great claw’s then i ever thought i could. people need to stop whining and do some work, we can acomplish great things if we try
yes, muneo beat otochun but it was much more close than the 7-3 match people in the states would claim it is. by no means is muneo some scrub that picked o.sagat to get an easy win. he showed mastery in his character just like otochun did in his. the match could have gone either way and was exciting. o.sagat did not go on to dominate and win sbo. it was mostly solid ryu and deejay play that did that, if you look at results of sbo many matches went against traditional tier lists.
as far as what japan would think of hdr, the only way to know for sure of course would be an arcade release, but in my opinion they would not care about many of things that hdr tries to do. making execution easier means nothing to them as random business men coming to play during their lunch break execute 98.9% perfectly while the pros are basically perfect, the only thing seperating them really are the mind/chess games.
the balance changes also, in my opinion, wouldnt mean that much as some new player/random scrub walking into any arcade and trying to counter pick would get destroyed guaranteed. the “one character only” rules of their tournaments push them to learn all matchups and focus heavily on what we would call bad matches. the removal of throw trap type stuff also doesnt have the same apeal that it does here because its just isnt safe against a top player who has 100% reversal ability, alot of times i wouldnt see anyone go for this stuff with a sim or boxer out of fear of throwing the match away and witht he strong tradition and obvious love of st there, something replacing it would have to be an extremely top notch product
do i believe every match in st is completely even?no. but there is nothing that cannot be overcome, i saw it with my own two eyes. remix is a watered down st by design. you can get the same easy execution/balance results from st, its just more difficult and requires more work/effort and therefore makes it more appealing to me.
I like where this is going. Can we switch to character lock tourneys?
P.S. John Rambo, you’re too good man.
^^^ I agree with so much of this, it?s crazy. ( I owe you a PM John :karate: ) But I digress…
It’s pretty damn apparent that releasing HDR has split the ‘classic’ SF community. (The reasons have been stated a million times so there is no reason to state them here.) So, what’s really left to been seen is how it sorts itself out. Can both games coexist on the tournament scene? Or will one ultimately win out? Currently, HDR is the EVO tournament game. Somewhere, I remember reading Mr.Wiz stating that it was HDR or nothing (At that time).
However, I often wonder if the infighting doesn’t stop will SRK/EVO just say to the hell with it, we are not going to support either game until the two camps figure it out. Or ultimately will the two games be left behind. With all the new games coming out and the constant infighting, people may just move on from ?classic? SF. Only time will tell, and it?s going to be interesting to see how it pans out.
I think tiers are naturally in place. As you try to reach the top of an underground cave, at some point as you progress, you reach ceilings where it’s impossible to rise further. I don’t believe there’s an infinite path to improvement; the cave just doesn’t have any paths further up. No matter how hard players try with n.Sagat, they’ll have a rough time with the best Dhalsim players. There are factors that enable you to maximize your chances in the match but there are just too many factors against you.
That said, I certainly agree with Alex Valle’s comment to nh2 that tiers are very misleading for intermediate players and below. The main reason tiers shouldn’t be over-emphasized is because player ability, up until that very peak, is much more important than character ability and goes much further than what many believe. The tiers given by JP players aren’t meant for mid-level competition; at each level, different situations arise (e.g. Honda is generally very powerful at mid-level when players aren’t as adept at keeping him out). I’ve often mentioned how ludicrous it is when players who lose to my Honda 10-0 are complaining about my using claw. If you’re at the bottom of an underground cave, you really have no idea how far up the cave goes.
My analogy to this concept is having 2 people compete to solve high-number arithmetic problems quickly (although this is passive competition). The one to solve the problems fastest wins and there are 4 “characters” available to play. One “character” has no tools and must solve in his head, a 2nd “character” can use pen & paper to work out problems, a 3rd “character” can use an abacus, and finally a 4th character has a calculator. Based on low level comp in this contest, the person with the calculator would always win. This is what a scrub sees and he’ll quickly label the calculator as completely overpowered and broken.
But as you have players who really become adept at using certain characters (search YouTube for “amazing abacus”), then the tiers aren’t clear at all anymore and the calculator user would be shocked at losing to an abacus. Add in savant-level visual calculation experts and even doing calculations in one’s head suddenly seems competitive. Ultimately towards the top, there are heights that nobody at the bottom of the cave would have guessed. Which “character” is fastest in the end?
What’s a human’s mental calculation limit? Do the advantages of writing on paper outweigh the writing time? Do the manual mechanics of the abacus and calculator slow those characters down? I’d guess that the calculator would win at the end but even that would take a great deal of dexterity and reaction that must be honed through much experience. There are certainly tiers set based on these highest limits (corresponding to a person’s physical/mental limitations) but still, you should be able to see that one’s skill at using the character is more important than the characters themselves up until that point. Personally, I’m halfway decent with a calculator but I know I’ll lose to an abacus master or an abstract number genius.
And similarly in ST, an n.Sagat player could easily beat any Dhalsim that hasn’t reached a close proximity of play level. But that doesn’t mean the matchup is even on both sides, but rather that one player knows more about that matchup from his side than the other player from his side. Most outside of Japan don’t know how to counter certain lesser used characters’ best tactics in Japan; I was baffled by Fei Long and Mattsun’s Ken for a time. Experience is necessary so that you can keep climbing further up the cave to where player skill has reached its limits and where tiers will start to mirror the actual outcomes.
Hopefully, my opinions are all clear. Perhaps the scariest thought is that someone will probably read this and the only fact they’ll come away with is that I believe in tiers.
Why do you think HDR split the community? I can’t think of any ST players who switched to playing HDR exclusively. The infighting only exists online, and the people who argue for HDR don’t show up to tourneys.
It seems to me like arcade ST is the preferred choice by 90% of tourney attending players, so it looks like HDR offline is now officially? Dead.
Well, it’s split because Cali players (both Nor Cal’s gatherings near Sirlin’s place and So Cal’s ranbats) seem to prefer HDR, perhaps because their HDR players actually show up consistently. For EC, yeah, like you’ve seen for yourself, we have plenty of online HDR players and posters but tourneys are almost entirely composed of ST fans. But I won’t discuss this issue further on the HDR forum.
heh while i do now hold victories over many big names in japan(pm if you want the list), there are many stronger players than i over there, hopefully i will improve and get another opportunity to play them, with that being said i didnt form my opinion by thinking im the greatest player ever and then losing “bad” matches. i watched extremely high level play for hours a day and these are my honest thoughts regardless of my own performance.
all im trying to do here is to encourage people to think in a healthier way, and not as a nation think of matchups as impossible or that we all need to counter pick. this is important for our future competing at tougeki. i think we can win this someday, anyone agree?
like you said if your better than your opponent(which should be the goal here) you will win regardless of matchup. play the character you like, enjoy what your doing and play to win hehe
co-sign.
I’ve always pushed for character locked tourneys anyways and I play Blanka. I think about matchups and their difficulty but it’s mostly to further my understanding, you can’t solve a problem until you know it’s a problem. I’m not satisfied until I win, even if the odds are 9-1 in the other guys favor. If I have to work harder that just makes me a better player in the long run.
I do believe that an inferior player is capable of winning highly advantageous matches. That’s just what it means to have advantageous matchups. You have an easier time. If you just want to flat out win, all the time, tier whore. If you want to be the best that you can be with the character you enjoy most, then just play who you like and you’ll be recognized for your skill. Even moreso when you start winning in disadvantageous matchups.
When I spoke to Shoji in London before he left for Japan he told me he believed Komoda (in his prime at least but he didn; t specify) to be the best player. But his character holds him back from dominating in tournaments.
Isn’t everyone saying the same thing?
Up to high-levels of play, tiers matter. At high-levels of play, tiers don’t matter as much.
i haven’t seen anyone address what i brought up. will evo japn push for an hdr tournament or is it just gonna be ssf4 (i mean… assuming it happens, whenever they plan to hold it etc). this is an hdr forum ya? is anybody down with me as far as bringing up the idea to srk that “hey, since you guys are doing a tournament in japn etc, why not have an hdr tournament”
btw, hdr is not splitting the st community imo as far as competition. people choose to play what they want. st has been around for awhile. there will always be a following for the game. when AE was out, i don’t recall seeing an arguement for AE vs ST. people played what they wanted. there seems to be a movement by some where it has to be 1 or the other. support the 1 you like, but in doing so, do you really need to bash the other? but looking at the future - evo will stick to HDR i think.
let’s be real, daigo and any other japanese who plays ST, if they came to evo they would still enter HDR. i don’t see them complaining about easy control issues, or why matchup strengths and weaknesses might have changed. if ssf4 was never announced in japn, do you think SBO would bow to the pressure and make console ssf4 the main game? you saw this past year’s evo. they stuck with sf4, because it was the game in arcades and SBO is arcade games showcased. but i think most/all can agree that a majority of players think ssf4 is a better game than sf4?
btw, i play hdr online, and whenever i check classic mode to see if anyone is playing… nobody is on there. like… nobody ever.