Thoughts on ST in Tougeki SBO & Japan

[geo]

Like Rufus said, you also have to consider that many of the players who have come to disregard HDR are the same ones who have been the biggest supporters of HDR where it matters: on the offline battlefield. I know you attended a Canadian tourney, blitzfu, but maybe if you and others saw the impressive rise and then disheartening decline of HDR in tourneys like US EC players did, you’d hold a different viewpoint now.

I agree that there are a few players who’ve criticized HDR and haven’t played offline, which doesn’t reflect well on their attempts to make fair judgments. But in the same vein, there are many online who praise HDR yet have never acted on it and ought to be holding themselves more responsible.

Since damdai was brought up, let’s consider his credentials (outside of a reputation for bitterness): he has likely attended more HDR tourneys than anyone in history. Since he’s been the biggest real supporter of the game, I think he has every right to say anything about HDR he wants. Although I know I wasn’t labeled in the hate group, I’ve participated in over a dozen HDR tourneys and that’s why I also post about the game without hesitation.

In the online vacuum, it’s easy to assume that things were going great and that the ST fans are preventing the game from rising with our complaints. But that’s confusing the cause and effect. Rather, it’s the game falling that’s drawing our efforts away from it. In the end, the only way to show your conviction is to show up. That’s what Cali has done and why their group of players can be admired. HDR seems to be working well for them and I’m happy for that. But for everyone else (well, apparently not in the midwest, sorry), the scene is still waiting for you.

Sorry for the break in fatboy’s clever and appropriate slideshow but I just wanted to keep drilling that point in until everyone realizes that it’s on their shoulders to support the point they want to make. There’s a lot of offline discussion that never pops up online, and which sometimes seems to cause online observers surprise and consternation when acted upon.

Your view seems to be that if someone hasn’t attended offline tournaments, they aren’t “supporting” the game. That is patently false as I can point to lots examples of people contributing in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with offline tournaments.

And what about the person who doesn’t have the resources to attend offline tournaments? If you don’t know people’s circumstances how can you judge them.

Your world seems to revolve around offline tournaments, but don’t project that onto everyone else.

If a game was massively popular online but had zero offline tournaments, by your logic it would not be popular?

[geo]

And also: not content with splitting the world up into ST vs. HDR, now lets chop it up even more with online vs offline! Wheeeee! We’re idiots!

[papasi]

I guess the importance of the offline scene is that it generates a lot more exposure for the game.

Like if EVO features HDR, the rest of the fighting game community will learn about it, and then they can tell their friends if they end up enjoy playing the game.

Basically this is where the effect of word of mouth begins, and it is the most effective way to attract new players (your friends’ opinions >>>> all the online posts you read on srk)

Secondly, FG in general are extremely sensitive to input lag / network lag and offline is always the only authentic way to play the game.

Unless we have another technological leap and US re-deploy the internet infrastructure like asia, online play is not going to cut it for a lot of people.

5 frames lag might be fine for starcraft 2 but for most fighting games it is a big impact.

BTW I checked out some of the obscure games @ BYOC too while at NCR. And I come to the conclusion that Tekken is extremely boring to watch

[geo]

But more people play HDR and ST online than offline, surely. And I’d bet that more people play SF2 now because HDR was released online and has an online capability, rather than because HDR was featured at Evo.

It’s true that network lag is an issue online (you need to brush up on the definition of input lag), but it is not enough of an issue to stop people from playing online like you imply.

The reason I bring this up is because I see a lot of idolatry regarding offline play, of which Ganelon’s post seemed to be representative. In fact, most people can have a very enjoyable time playing online.

There’s a clique of people that demand offline arcade cabinet CPSII only, but it’s a horrendous growth strategy.

[mad_possum]

Your view seems to be that if someone hasn’t attended offline tournaments, they aren’t “supporting” the game. That is patently false as I can point to lots examples of people contributing in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with offline tournaments.

And what about the person who doesn’t have the resources to attend offline tournaments? If you don’t know people’s circumstances how can you judge them.

Your world seems to revolve around offline tournaments, but don’t project that onto everyone else.

If a game was massively popular online but had zero offline tournaments, by your logic it would not be popular?

There’s a bit of a generation gap with this argument. Old school players (like me) will always put a premium on offline play. There’s just nothing like the experience of playing lag-free with your opponent right next you (and a group watching behind you). It just blows online away for us.
Plus, as Papasi said, offline tournies is where all the exposure is. Someone seeing two pros go at it at an HDR tourney might walk away impressed and become a convert.

Now younger players who have grown up with online play for everything will be more inclined to just play games online and see nothing wrong with online tournies. They missed out on the arcade experience and the having to get people to gather for offline play.

There are lots of players that have no desire to play in any offline events. There’s nothing wrong with that, but we are still trying to grow HDr/ST’s offline turnout and with HDR/ST’s smaller player base (compared to newer games like SSF4) we need as many of the online players to come as we can. Everyone has to do what’s best for them (like I had to do by unfortunetly missing out on SB this year, though I’m not happy about it, LOL).

In the end I would recommend to anyone who hasn’t played in an offline tourney to at least try it once, it is a great experience. Win or lose you’ll have fun and probably level up your game a bit if there is some good players there. I’ve found that I always have a good time hanging out with the ST/HDR crowd at tournies (we tend to skew a bit older than the SSF4 crowd).
If there isn’t any HDR tournies running in your area than try to find a SSF4 one and see if you can run an HDR side event. Announce it on here and get with other online players in your area to try to get some people to come out. Maybe you can start a scene. You gain nothing by not trying.

[SweetJohnnyV]

^^^ Totally sounds like and “Now you know, and knowing half the battle PSA.” I can totally see Hawk, Dude, and Shipwreck says this.

OMG dude! LMAO! That was awesome! :tup:

Your world seems to revolve around offline tournaments, but don’t project that onto everyone else.

I don’t want to speak for Ganelon, but most of these discussions revolve around what game/version should be played at tournaments. Nobody really cares what people play online. That doesn’t affect anything.

With tournaments though, it matters. You want to be able to practice up for the game/version that will be played. So, it makes sense that the people that show up and participate in those tournaments are the ones who decide which game to run.

[Coth_X]

Certain games are enjoyable for the most part online.

However, give SCIV a try. That shit is stupid online.

[papasi]

There’s a clique of people that demand offline arcade cabinet CPSII only, but it’s a horrendous growth strategy.

I don’t know whether it’s a smart strategy for growth.

But playing HDR online (or offline for that matter) verse sitting down on a egret II is the difference between night and day.

online is like masturbate (still good when that’s the only thing available) while playing CPS2 ST on a cab is like having sex with your favorite celebrity. Everyone needs to do this once in their life time at least

Super gun can’t even do it justice.

[Ganelon]

Your view seems to be that if someone hasn’t attended offline tournaments, they aren’t “supporting” the game. That is patently false as I can point to lots examples of people contributing in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with offline tournaments.

Yeah, SweetJV got it: I think you misunderstood my nuances (or perhaps they weren’t clear enough). Players are free to enjoy the game in any way they choose and it’s great when folks offer research information online. However, just as offline tourney chess is completely separate from correspondence chess with the former held in significantly higher regard, the main arena of playing fighters is offline. Nothing else matters for competition (because of lag, cheating, and other online factors).

You can be a fan of a game by watching it, talking about it, detailing info, and playing online. That’s all well and it’s great to have more fans. But for players trying to fairly and knowledgeably decide on the direction of an offline scene towards a game, then offline play is essential. And amongst offline play, the best way to stir up interest seems to be through competitions. Now, blitzfu didn’t suggest this but I just wanted to emphasize that there’s a real solution to mend the SF2 tourney scene but there have been no efforts by online players on either side to do so (despite being given warnings and states of affair). If offline play isn’t applicable to your interests, then you’re not one of the players I’m calling out.

Like mad possum said, fighters have always depended on offline play for the real deal. It’s a shame that the “online is practice only” mantra isn’t repeated as heavily nowadays. I’ve mentioned since the Kaillera days that if there was no offline scene, I would stop playing ST. It’s the motivation to compete offline that keeps me going and would probably motivate others if they had a chance to thoroughly experience it. If there was no scene, the game would certainly be considered dead in the context of the fighting game community, because that’s one of the most common interpretations.

I bear no ill will towards the online scene and tried to detail this set of beliefs in an eloquent manner but if I have to put it bluntly so that everyone understands, I will: if you want to advocate and support the version that you prefer, please make the effort to show up and support your scene. For example, Thelo has driven significant distances to support HDR so I’m always fine with him voicing his support, even though I may disagree with it now.

If you’re not able to show up to tourneys and other offline events, that’s entirely understandable; but in that case, please refrain from wasting time making arguments for which version of the game you would prefer gets played and don’t get upset when players around you don’t play it. That goes for ST and HDR players alike.

So if you just play online and want to just share opinions on the game, that’s cool. If I’ve still hit a nerve to anyone reading this post, then great, that was my intention. Are you actually going to do anything or will you keep responding in posts here? If that doesn’t stir up any more online players into participating offline, then it at least hasn’t hurt the status quo. I don’t mind making a hundred online enemies at the cost of an offline friend.

[Ganelon]

Another thought for geo: if you’re living in Seattle now, you may be able to revive their SF2 scene with zass, Axel Kelly, and the rest of the crew (maybe Jason Cole and Apoc are still there and would play?). They had an active arcade ST scene (maybe HDR later) with semi-weekly gatherings and monthly tourneys but have since died to the best of my knowledge. If you could kickstart that again, it would be a great way to experience some offline play for yourself and see how it feels.

[Rufus]

online is like masturbate (still good when that’s the only thing available) while playing CPS2 ST on a cab is like having sex with your favorite celebrity. Everyone needs to do this once in their life time at least

And what if I am my own favorite celebrity?

[papasi]

And what if I am my own favorite celebrity?

go @#$! yourself

BTW, don’t get me wrong. I love online too (masturbate).

[geo]

Another thought for geo: if you’re living in Seattle now, you may be able to revive their SF2 scene with zass, Axel Kelly, and the rest of the crew (maybe Jason Cole and Apoc are still there and would play?). They had an active arcade ST scene (maybe HDR later) with semi-weekly gatherings and monthly tourneys but have since died to the best of my knowledge. If you could kickstart that again, it would be a great way to experience some offline play for yourself and see how it feels.

You assume I haven’t played offline. I have in fact played offline with NKI, Damdai, Nohoho, and many others, and all on arcade cab ST. I’ve also played Airthrow and various other folks in Seattle, arcade and otherwise. I bought an Egrett 2 cab with a Japanese SSFIIX board and had it in my house for over a year, how about that??

My point is that 1) people seem to value offline more than online and I’m not convinced of the logic of that, and 2) trying to orient the scene around arcade ST is a losing strategy.

[damdai]

trying to orient the scene around arcade ST is a losing strategy.

It’s the only strategy because it’s the only constant.

[geo]

It’s the only strategy because it’s the only constant.

I understand what you’re saying. It’s the scientific method: as soon as you mess with more than one variable you don’t have a true test.

But the “barrier to entry” for arcade CPSII is too high for most people, whether it’s importing a cab or setting up a supergun. I sent a PM with ideas to John Rambo for how that barrier might be reduced somewhat, but it will remain expensive and time consuming.

So what does that mean? There will probably only be small groups of people playing offline on arcade ST and everyone else playing HDR or ST online.

You’re a purist (and I’m not saying that in a negative way) so I know which option you’re picking, but does it make sense for everyone else to orient the same way?

[damdai]

I understand what you’re saying. It’s the scientific method: as soon as you mess with more than one variable you don’t have a true test.

But the “barrier to entry” for arcade CPSII is too high for most people, whether it’s importing a cab or setting up a supergun. I sent a PM with ideas to John Rambo for how that barrier might be reduced somewhat, but it will remain expensive and time consuming.

So what does that mean? There will probably only be small groups of people playing offline on arcade ST and everyone else playing HDR or ST online.

You’re a purist (and I’m not saying that in a negative way) so I know which option you’re picking, but does it make sense for everyone else to orient the same way?

It’s either that or emulator because consoles always die.

[geo]

It’s either that or emulator because consoles always die.

A fair point. So in conclusion: we’re screwed (?)

[damdai]

A fair point. So in conclusion: we’re screwed (?)

Not if we remember to take some ST and CPS2 boards when it’s time to leave this planet. But in reality, when all existing equipment gets too old to fix, PC will be all thats left. Unless anyone knows how to build new boards.

[Rufus]

Not if we remember to take some ST and CPS2 boards when it’s time to leave this planet. But in reality, when all existing equipment gets too old to fix, PC will be all thats left. Unless anyone knows how to build new boards.

I think we’re already well past the point where it would be easier to emulate than to build.

[Ganelon]

My point is that 1) people seem to value offline more than online and I’m not convinced of the logic of that, and 2) trying to orient the scene around arcade ST is a losing strategy.

FR is a good start but it’s really tough to sustain anything once a year. I wasn’t aware you played with some of the Seattle folks already so kudos on that. As for having a cab, it’s only meaningful with competition. If you’re just playing a fighting game single-player offline, it’s your prerogative to do what you want.

As for the pessimism regarding arcade ST, what makes you so sure to say that? Every ST hotbed right now has an arcade cab nearby. laugh’s PS converters are great at allowing players to use their own controllers (although I recommend using JP sticks). HDR hasn’t worked for EC and isn’t giving the players optimal fun. Not playing at all means SF2 will die in our region as a competitive tourney game. We’re doing what we can with the resources we have. There’s a dedicated group keeping the scene alive. If you have a better strategy, we’re all ears. For those living in a region that doesn’t have an SF2 scene and is resistant to creating one, then sure, online combined with offline regional tourneys are your best local option.

Or if you want to focus on online, then as damdai said, next-gen will potentially be the end of online HDR. GGPO may live on but I’m not sure how you can remove the cloud of suspicion over lag and macros; you never know when someone might be unfairly getting wins. If you’re willing to resign SF2 to such a pitiful fate, that’s up to you. But if so, please don’t discourage others from helping keep the game alive. However, I imagine that you just haven’t thought through all this clearly so I’d suggest playing offline more to get a more balanced perspective on the situation.

Like I mentioned earlier in this topic, a lot of discussion occurs offline about how to keep the scene alive while maximizing our fun factor. Anybody who cares about the game long term ought to try and keep the golden standard of offline competition alive. Throughout SF2’s history, every few years, new competitive spirits have been determined enough to challenge the previous SF2 greats, even while other fighting series rose and fell from prominence. Let’s say one of our goals is keeping the light on for them.