hit invincibility and grab invincibility are 2 different things…like ex tornado throw or ex psycho crusher and ex scissors…they can all be thrown…even ex cannon spike…but once shotos go gold shoryu they are god so don’t try anything.
I agree.
My mixup game has vastly improved because of this thread. i main akuma and i have learned allot from this thread.
i do also have a little to contribute to the > > DF kick. i stuffed fei longs fire kick twice but it did not stuff the EX fire kick but i also believe that timing might have been an issue with him hiting me with it. oh and i also mash my dashes after the throw so. just my .02 :tup:
yes, please sticky.
@bokkin, that’s interesting, i didn’t know you could grab during invincibility (if i’m interpreting you correctly). and yes, gold shoryu does = fuck all.
i originally posted this in the wrong thread…
how do i run the beginnings of a vortex against the likes of blanka ryu and abel?
heartstopper doesnt seem to work on ryu, he just srks out of the mk dive and the demon grab (am i timing my dive wrong? daigo beat sanfords heartstopper attempt and ultrad him to boot)… abel can roll the heartstopper…
also… after i hit with a sweep and then go for a crossup tatsu ( i use hk) my opponents generally arent fooled and block in the appropriate manner… then when i do a regular jumnpin that doesnt crossup they also block in the appropriate manner… the only thing that i can think of is that my spacing/timing isnt ambiguous enough… any tips? cause afaik crossup tatsu has a very specific spacing and timing in akumas jump arc as to where it can be done so that it will actually hit the opponents back.
-dime
Ya I wasn’t sure about this because on the wiki it specifies hit and throw invincibility for Abel’s TTs, but for Ryu it just says invincibility…
Alright well lemme think about my own experiences… against Blanka you’re right you can’t really use crossup tatsu, but meaty dive kick (untechable knockdown only, dont even bother trying without that since electricity will beat non meaty dive kick) beats out everything except EX Blanka up ball (and you can still safe jump that I believe… not the easiest thing to do against a 5 frame reversal but it’s still possible).
Against Abel, yes he can roll out of your crossup tatsu, however you should be trying to condition Abel out of rolling on his wakeup with a regular jump-in -> sweep him in his roll’s recovery (before he has EX to do EX roll). After he’s afraid to regularly roll the exploding heart technique should yield you better mixups.
As far as the crossup tatsu goes, one good way to get the mindgames rolling on characters where you can freely abuse their wakeup is that if they start off blocking the tatsu, on your next opportunity make a VERY deep and late jump-in HK instead, that usually works for me, it also works very well as a complement to a couple of previous crossup tatsu’s. Also it would be beneficial to actually see you executing the crossup tatsu as there are so many different potential timings and spacings for it…
I wasn’t sure to make a new thread or not, but this is the wakeup thread. I was glancing the other forums when ‘Emblemlord’ posted: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7784782&postcount=132 and it got me thinking.
I wanted to ask a few things:
- Why is it safe for akuma (gief, fuerte…) to just walk up to a downed sagat with meter? What can sagat not do?
- Why is it safe to walk up to some downed opponents and not others?
- The vortex videos were great options to consider but is walk up cr.lk, cr.lp > BnB a solid method when dealing with equally jab happy, short, SRK spammers?
- My typical go-to option is HP.shaku from distance when they’re downed. Mid-distance led to too many reversal ultras I neglect to remember.
- Do the same vortex tools apply to techable knockdowns? Say after a BnB, shall I walk up to the opponent and try a mixup?
- ShinAkuma once wrote about ‘guaranteed damage’ on shotos when they’re in the corner and you have 2 bars. I’m still fuzzy about that concept.
What it all boils to, is that my experiences lead me to believe that only crossup tatsus, SRKs with 2 bars, meaty fireballs and occassional walk up throws are the safest and most reliable tactics on downed opponents. I would never dream of trying an overhead or other tricks.
The vortex is not nearly as useful on people who aren’t good players. An opponent that mashes jab or uppercut 100% cannot be kept “guessing” since they’re not even aware of the guessing game being played on them. They’re just going to do what they always do, you have to bring yourself to the level they are playing at, which if they’re mashy you have to play safe and basic.
Sagat has a slow uppercut, and if you’ve watched the vortex video you know you can stuff a lot of his reversals, or even make them whiff with Akuma. For Gief him being next to you is always a threat, and Fuerte really HAS to go for wake-up games since that’s his entire gameplan.
Vortex options can apply to normal knockdowns, but are much less safe which is why I don’t really discuss them. Ending a BNB with LP SRK will let you land quicker and have a safer mix-up game, and landing BNB to HP SRK with your opponents back in a corner can also be relatively safe since they don’t fly away. I of course already discussed the interesting HK Tatsu setup in the video, but that’s about all I’d recommend for regular knockdown setups.
The lesser viable options in the vortex are to get into your opponents mind, and are completely up to you to feel out when the right moments are to use them. Empty Jump late option select c.LK/throw is by far the safest option on their wake-up though in my opinion, you really need to work o/s into your game as it changes a lot of things.
Dude, Carlos… I can demon throw SRKs on wake up if my timing is tight? Dude, this is breakthrough stuff for me.
Seattle’s got skills, real talk.
of course its not “safe” for akuma to just walk up… he just has a big enough plus side to make it worth while (as do geif and elf). The point of a mix-up is guessing what your opponent is expecting and doing something different. Art of war shit. So to ask if walking up after a mix-up is something you “should” do the only answer is to try it and then see how the opponent responds. Some people tech EVERYTHING but will take a c.mk on wake-up almost every time and others NEVER block cross-tatsu and other never block ANY crossups. And of course a large portion SRK on wake-up like MAD.
recommend to start by walking up for something SAFE, see their response, and react accordingly.
The … akuma oki game… does not work on un-techable if they tech. But you have enough time a lot of the time to see if they tech and if they don’t… mix-up will work fine. If they DO tech, you’ll have to have done something other than the usual mix-up. That beign said its AGAIN a matter of learning what the given opponent does. If someone NEVER techs untechable knockdown then fuck em’ up. If they tech most or all of the time then safer options like walking up and reacting or jump back fireballs etc are the choices options.
as for the shinakuma comments or whatever I’m not sure but I’d assume he means SRK on wake-up? i’m not sure … you’d have to show ppl what you r referrin to.
and overhead works well on GOOD opponents when they don’t have 2 bars to make their guesses safe because a 100 damage or so from an average overhead isn’t worth the risk of taking a low into a 300 damage combo or worse so they low block or tech… which gets beaten by an overhead (and ryu’s overhead is GODLY… o.O)
and that is the reason why the vortex does not work online… I don’t know how many times I do 2 or 3 cross- tatsu in a row and then jump in normal to a SRK… and the next time do just the tatsu and get a dizzy and an easy perfect. Safe jumping and cross-tatsu is all you really NEED in online play because ppl don’t tend to change up their stuff enough… instead of getting better and learning to block correctly they take the easy way out and just jump out of the game and play someone they feel they can beat.
Mmm, thanks loltima, needed to be reminded to play at the level of the player. A good friend of mine is kinda scrubby and super jab happy and beats me a good amount because i think he sandbags me. i give him less credit than he deserves, but playing safe and basic sounds good.
Can someone help me. I suck as Akuma, after a knockdown, when do start to input demon flip/dive kick so its safe? thanks
Let us synchronize our comborotizers to exactly 17 and I will be able to tell you. Seriously though, you know that question is impossible to answer.
after a sweep I do the appropriate meatly demon flip kick immediately. Practice Practice
yeah demon flip throw will grab all dP’s (outside of ex) on wake up if you get the start-up frames (hard to time again practice practice)
-knowing is half the battle
yeah we are all lvling up after our show at evo…plus since dan/air is the undisputed NW tournament winner we need to lift our game up. I’m trying to up my akuma to give dan/air/utaka and the rest of you B.C.'ers a solid challenge. I saw what I was capable of while up there and know what I need to work on.
(1) If the sagat doesn’t have meter meaty cLK stuffs dP clean and you can hit confirm into a loop setup.
(2) their lack of wake up reversal options…like abel you can mix him up all day on wake up without fear of anything on wake -up…Demon flip throw is always safe against abel on wake up unless the abel has super.
(3) Vortex only works on good thinking players that don’t just mash things out all the time (hard to find) otherwise a safe jump block option or cross-up tatsu is your best bet.
Too bad you can’t safe jump on ryu ken akuma cammy dan and a few others…add auto correct that if used effectively will work 95% of the times (hell even with charge characters) on crossups and there you go, spamming DPs on wakeup suddenly is a good option in sf4.
All you’re left with is baiting by doing a FAKE jump in (not safe, FAKE) either with j.hp or lk demon flip followed by a palm strike to land immediately.
When i’m playing against ryu or sagat and they don’t have ultra i usually feel moderately safe doing the vortex, but when they’re charged I don’t feel very confortable with it since a trade will result in 40% to 70% life depending on the character
Fake jump in back dash rapes dp mashers plus you can buffer another lk or mk demonflip after the backdash for more mix-up/punish the dP. Wake up dP isn’t that good but people are getting hit by it so much it’s funny.
Sometimes I’ve been grabbed by Abel from the air with his :dp: move but my timing could’ve been off? I’m not too sure about the Abel matchup and that leads to some of my hesitation against going air against him all the time. But no, he’s got no consistent answer for air.
yeah so that’s basically what i said…the only “vortex” you’re left with are fake jump ins/empty demon flips.
Btw, i’m not talking about mashers, i’m talking about shotos who know how to play and can get an auto correct shoryuken damn nearly all the time. You really can’t cross up those, at least not when they have their ultra charged. Definitely not worth the risk, especially considering akuma’s low health
There are ways to make wake-up DP’s come out incorrectly, as well as ultras. The fact that they’re doing an auto-correct dp doesn’t prevent this from happening. If they’re already standing up you’re much more likely to get hit by an auto-correct.
Ok, so how safe is the backdash when you’re touching the opponent ? Like, right next to him if i backdash, will i get hit ? I mean this about DP opponentes like the shotos.