Mag/Dorm also gives CF (3 frames after the flash) and Flare (4 frames after the flash) DHC from tempest which is sweet. I use tempest for both air and ground guard cancels. I only really use it as counter-counter-pressure (when the opponent makes me block something quick to get out of Mag pressure, I tempest xx Flare to turn momentum back into my favor).
Entering my first local this weekend and will prob use Mag/Dante/Doom. Any tips on Mags play? Also any tips on dealing with Spencer + projectile assist or drones and constant rush down in general?
Reposting this here since there seems to be confusion in the stream/tier threads about what is possible/ how to perform the guard cancel dash when you have meter.
Originally I wrote this a few post above.
I rewrote some more detail explaining in the other threads.
The relevant info is below.
if you use a OBD button you extend the amount of frames you have available to use for the kara(plink) special cancel.
i dont know the mechanical reason for the extra leniency except to speculate that OBDs are handled as a special case in the input code.
you can prove this to yourself in training mode by jumping with mags and doing a plink dash H~m. mags makes no purple sound effect no matter what. use a obd and you can stretch the inputs so a sound effect happens. then do it useing hypergrav. then do it as a guard stun cancel.
it is hard as fuck to do consistently but 2 out of ten might save you versus unblocks.
I found using dorm’s pillar special a good training exercise. record player 2 doing it, and you can block, input the motion and wait the required time to dash cancel at about the last hit. Hard, and you technically don’t earn a punish in that case but Dorm can’t do much else but block or super cancel.
As far as the mechanics behind it, my understanding is that the leniency for reading a M~H plink as a dash is something like a 1 frame window. Where the window to cancel a button into a M+H dash is much wider for some reason (not based on the same plink > dash window for some reason. I assume it gets bumped because there’s no question in the buffer whether or not you wanted 2 separate button presses or wanted a dash. Never bothered testing the assumption, but afaik, it’s just about the 2 buttons being on the same frame, not from a single button press.) Would be nice if someone had a frame perfect programmable controller and could figure out what that window actually was just for the sake of learning the engine better.
Is it possible that the reason for the leniency for OBD cancel vs plink dash cancel is that the plink window is shorter than the kara dash cancel window?
Because my understanding is, what the metered glitch abuses is essentially that the special cancelling window is about a frame shorter than the plink window, so there exists a frame where you can input the second plinked button but you no longer get the Tempest buffer. But we’re just looking at the plink window, which is basically the amount of time between two inputs for them to be considered a plink, meaning instead of H, M we get H, M+H. If we use an OBD we don’t really need to look at the plink window, cause you’re not relying on a plink to get the dash input. We just have to look at the maximum amount of time after inputting a normal/special where you can still cancel into dash (kara dash cancel window or whatever it’s called). If the kara dash cancel window is larger than the plink window by x frames, then you have about x+1 frames where you can still kara cancel HGrav into OBD but you no longer get the Tempest buffer.
Slightly off-topic maybe, but I think it’s a legit mechanics question that may help Magneto players understand this tech more so we can expand on it better.
Edit: Also, this means theoretically, Phx can turnaround glitch now, right? Before, she couldn’t really pull it off because her air special was QCF so if you tried turn around glitch with meter, you’d get air super. But if you plink dash cancel or OBD cancel the air special on the frame that special cancelling runs out, then you won’t get air super with or without meter, so you get the turn around effect from the air special then you cancel that into a dash.
Yeah it’s definitely this. We use “plink” in Marvel veryyy losely, especially around Magneto–“plink” boxdash MBlast, “plink” L+M~H for extra Height in HGrav loops… The only character I play who actually plinks things usefully is Dante (although that BC mechanic doesn’t make any damn sense). This is why I had a confused post here a few months ago when I started playing Mags and was plinking boxdash blasts lol 
Haven’t looked at this whatsoever, so ignore/correct me if I’m interpreting what’s going on wrong…but the idea is that there are a few frames during HGrav’s startup that you can dash cancel in the air…and that the problem is that the directional input is still in the buffer and gives a hyper if you have meter, right?
So it seems as if you (forte) would be right about the kara dash (ODB or 3-button method) extending the window and increasing the chances of the directional input no longer being in the buffer…the problem then would become whether or not you were still in the window to dash cancel HGrav.
In my experience with things like this (which may be limited compared to some of you :P), the most important thing regarding the buffer is not the speed at which you input what you ultimately want to come out (here, dash)…it’s the delay between the directional command and the first button input. Take Kara Blasts, for example. There, you ideally hit dash the instant your directional input reaches forward, because then you maximize the directional buffer window and you can M+H~L quite slowly and run no risk of accidentally plinking it.
So it seems to me as if the reverse would be true here…if we don’t want to get tempest, shouldn’t we focus on inputing the HGrav differently as well? So Qcb.L would have as much space between the back and the L as possible while still getting the move…and the directional input would be less likely to still be in the buffer once you hit dash. I’ll look at it a little later in case that makes it easier.
EDIT: Re-reading the above, I think I fundamentally misunderstood Forte’s post, and was talking about something pretty different. That being said, if the issue still revolves around not getting Tempest, the point about delaying qcb. and the button probably still stands.
EDIT2: Yeah so I just tested this and doing qcb.H~L+M was giving me the dash pretty consistently when I focused on maximizing the space between qcb. and H. Something for other people to try in case it helps. The timing’s still pretty strict, but if you mess it up, you’re more likely to get a pushblock than Tempest this way, which makes it a lot more practical. Also, I didn’t notice a difference in difficulty between H~L+M and H~M…which makes me wonder if there really is extra leniency for kara dashes here? Is HGrav really a kara-dash-cancellable special, cause I had no idea…I think when I was getting with with H~L+M there’s a good chance I was just doing it fast enough that it actually plinked. Could be wrong, though…
Slippaz, if the game is likely to give you pushblock then your method is likely giving you a plink cancel.
when you kara cancel the hypergrav the game will not pushblockm iirc.
You can prove there is extra leniency by dashing in the air with most sound effects off. Mags will either trigger powder slap sounds or not, depending on if you are getting the extra frames.
Agreed 100% on the last part, and that’s why I said what I did about plinks generally–3 button dashes give you the option of using a totally different mechanic with more leniency even if you “accidentally” do plink H~L+M.
To clarify the thing about pushblock…Say that you can kara cancel a hypergrav and your input is qcb.H~L+M:
My post was mostly to suggest that, if getting an accidental Tempest is the issue in play, we might be best served focusing on delaying the H as much as possible after 4 in the 214. If the dash portion of the input (L+M) is further away from the 214, it stands to reason that, if you delay the H, you’re less likely to have 214 in the buffer at the time of the dash and thus get an accidental Tempest. So, after trying it out, I saw that, for me, a focus on delaying the buttons made it more likely that my error would fall on the side of too much delay, and that 214 wouldn’t be in the buffer even when I hit H. That means no hypergrav comes out to get kara canceled, H doesn’t do anything at all, and L+M pushblocks. That seems better than raw Tempest to me unless you have 2 bars and you can DHC into something safe.
The perfect input would seem to have H fall at the very end of the buffer window for 214 so that L+M falls outside of that window and can only be registered as kara canceling the HGrav. This is what I read Forte as saying.
Hope that clarifies what I said…my writing can get a little convoluted.
So my question now is…are we sure that you can actually kara cancel HGrav with a dash? You (sjohnst) are totally right that using a OBD gives more leniency when you’re flying around. Getting the powder slap means that you’re not plinking, but taking advantage of a few frames during during H’s startup that are dash-cancellable (I’m assuming). So…you can definitely plink-cancel HGrav out of block stun with qcb.H~M. That’s legit. For a OBD to add extra leniency there, though, you would also have to be able to kara cancel the startup frames of HGrav with a dash…and dash-canceling the startup of specials isn’t a mechanic I’m familiar with. That’s not to say that it isn’t the case, but simply that it would require a more or less artificial (meaning superficial) correlation between the way we kara dash during flight (dashing canceling normal startup) and the way we’re trying to kara dash out of HGrav (dash canceling special startup). See what I mean?
I was definitely inputting qcb.H~L+M and getting it to work, but that doesn’t mean that I wasn’t accidentally plinking H~L+M (true 1 frame of separation) instead of doing it at kara speed. After all, when you dash around in flight, you don’t always get the powder slap sound–H~L+M is lenient because it works both as a plink and as a kara and thus covers a slightly larger frame window. I didn’t seem to find qcb.H~L+M any easier than qcb.H~M.
Incidentally, we need a new symbol (not “~”) to distinguish karas from plinks so that I sound slightly less like a lunatic when I write things like this, lol.
TL;DR: Do we have confirmation that you can actually kara cancel HGrav into a dash, or are we just doing it at plink speed without realizing it?
EDIT: Yes, I realize that if you plink qcb.H~M, you’re technically dash-canceling the startup of HGrav, but this game attributes weird and nonsensical properties to plinking (look at Dante) that might be in play and which wouldn’t be available to a kara cancel.
EDIT2: One thing that might be interesting to know is whether or not you can dash-cancel HGrav when you’re not coming out of blockstun. I, for one, wasn’t able to do after ~5 minutes, whereas I was about 5/10 on doing it out of blockstun. There might be something weird in play about the guard cancel itself that’s letting HGrav be dash-cancellable when it shouldn’t be.
all good questions. This is what i did.
Jump tjen hit record and use H then OBD to cancel H into dash as late as possible. Earlier experiments should prove this is later than plinking.
Change the record to playback. Now you have at a single buyton press a perfect OBD kara. Jump do the hypergrav motion and hit playback.
With zero meters it should cancel into dash. With meters there will be timing involved.
This should prove hyoergrav is kara cancelsble.
Excellent call…but I must have done something wrong.
Recorded H~L+M with enough delay to get the H sound…Gives hypergrav in the air and hypergrav vs. Stalking Flare (blocked at normal jump height)…
Recorded H~M plink…gave me the same thing lol ~_~
I mashed both of them as dashes to make sure they were what I wanted. (Also had inputs on obviously)
I just had a couple minutes to do it, so something must have gone wrong…don’t know what it was, but man that was weird lol. Try again later
Actually when you “plink-cancel” the HGrav you’re already kara-cancelling the startup the HGrav. The plink mechanic by itself does not allow you to cancel out of HGrav; what the plink mechanic is doing is just giving you H on one frame then M+H on the next frame (assuming you plink H~M). So if you do HGrav motion + H~M, what you’re doing is inputting the H for the HGrav, then inputting M+H a frame after. Without meter, the M+H guarantees a dash input. The reason why HGrav cancels into dash when you plink is that the M+H dash (the result of the plink) kara-cancels the HGrav into a dash. So it doesn’t actually matter if you plink-cancel or OBD-cancel the HGrav; those are just two ways of kara-cancelling HGrav into dash.
Also, what I was just trying to say in my previous post is that:
Both plink-cancel and OBD-cancel work only during the kara-cancel window because they’re both basically just different input methods of a kara-cancel. But plinking has another limit, the plink window, which is the maximum amount of frames between two inputs (for example, H and M) during which the inputs will be registered as plinked (the game registers H then M+H instead of just H then M). You can OBD-cancel as long as you are within the kara-cancel window, but to plink-cancel you have to be within both the kara-cancel window and the plink window. So if the plink window is shorter than the kara-cancel window (which is what I was trying to suggest), then the intersection of the kara-cancel window and the plink window is necessarily shorter; this leads to a tighter plink-cancel compared to OBD-cancel (which is what we’re observing).
I like Slippaz’s way of hitting the glitch though. Delaying the H after the HGrav motion should help, if the underlying mechanic is what I think it to be. This way, you’re intentionally running out the special input frames, so when you actually do the plink/OBD cancel, you have a greater chance of pressing the second button outside the special input window.
Sjohn, you’ve worked on a programmable controller right? Could you maybe test this one out, see if there’s any difference in leniency? Or have you actually tested this already?
Edit: Also, there are a lot of other characters who can kara dash cancel out of air special startup, like Doom and Iron Man. That’s why turnaround glitch is possible on those chars. I think I read somewhere (from phantasy IIRC) that the rule of thumb is that if a char can cancel his/her air normals into air dash, then he/she can kara dash cancel out of air specials. The only other limitation for turnaround glitch is that the motion for the air special cannot be the motion for an air super, cause if you try to turnaround glitch, you will get air super instead of dash. Although with sjohn’s discovery, this won’t be a limitation anymore, ideally. That’s why I think Phx should be able to turnaround glitch now. I still have to test though.
I just tested hyper grav cancel into dash no meter and it works.
I made a macro of H into OBD stretched so mag makes a grunt while doing air H to dash.
If you jump and qcb in airthe and play the macro you will get a dash WITH NO GRUNT. Gruntless is the hypergrav karad into dash.
Then i used the macro in giard cancels and it works to go into dash with metet straightforwardly.
It seems like we must get leniency this way. You also get push blocks if you press buttons too late. I was wrong about saying you wouldnt.
Try the above and if you still dobt rhink hypergrav is kara’able or cant reproduce it we’ll discuss.
Edit: regarding programmable controller. I dont have one. My laptop sied midway during and i havent redone the software. I have another use for it though so i should finish that.
Ahhh in line with what Forte had said I was thinking about the turnaround glitch wrong, but of course that alone proves that this isn’t some weird plink-related mechanic (since you hit the two button dash normally there).
Yeah I’m not sure what wrong when I tested it, but I didn’t get enough time to fix it hah. Worked the first time I just did H~M and then it didn’t work for H~L+M or my second attempt at H~M. I clearly did something weird, but I did successfully macro a spammable dash in both cases…whatever.
I’m sold, I just wasn’t sure we could assume that the window would be the same even if it was kara cancellable. As you say though, it’s gotta be, especially if you’ve gotten it to work off a dash that clearly exercised the extra OBD leniency.
I’m gonna mess with it more tomorrow…maybe there’s some way we could copy other intentional delay methods on the directional input and find one that lets us autopilot the right timing…like 2147 or 21478 if you can keep your stick speed consistent. Possible that could help with hitting the edge of the buffer window.
I still can figure this thing out, can someone put a video showing this tech please?
Not a tutorial.
Just training mode with inputs on
YO
Thanks man, I needed that visual help!
Man I had no idea about air hypergrav being able to cancel blockstun like ground attraction does. That does give me some good ideas.
But since we know we can kara cancel air hypergrav into a dash, does that mean the same can be done with ground attraction? So like instead of just getting attraction into shockwave to punish rocket punch into HSF, or doing attraction into tempest into a 0f DHC to punish beserker slash into beserker charge, I could instead just do attraction kara dash into a full combo?
Gonna have to lab it up some time soon.
no one knows a way to do this. if you find one post it up.
the issue is ground specials dont cancel into dashes normally. so trying for a gua3d cancel is not gonna work without that step.
It’s hard to look through these and get the specifc answer I’m looking for so I’ll just ask.
In terms of movement, what’s the input to get the land when you Super Jump, Fly, PLink dash down and magnetic blast? Where do I input the S in order to land after the magnetic blast and not be stuck in flight?
Don’t have a setup on me to practice so I had to ask instead of experiment
A way I found was S~MH > blast