Then why the fuck have I seen mad Dantes win tournaments or do very well swinging around normals with assists with maybe a bold cancel here and there? People are getting mad fucked up on streams by ABC Dantes. ABC bold cancel, ABC call assist, ABC call assist teleport…that shit is fucking up other solid players. You can only imagine what’s going to happen later. Richard Nguyen has been trumping people lately throwing around swords and haggar assist getting multiple left rights and then doing a combo video afterwards. If that shit is already beating people up you can only imagine cracked out really scientific Dante. If anything the bold cancels will just make him safer than he already is. I already use bold cancel techniques with Dante that most others aren’t really using to set up long block stun strings with an assist even if they advance guard.
Dante’s s.L is his overall best normal. It covers a godly amount of range for a L normal and 8 frame start up is a passable speed considering it covers half the fucking screen. It’s also one of the only s.L’s in the game that will connect on small/crouching opponents while still being a solid anti air making it probably the best s.L in the game. If that shit was rapid fire like his L he would be broken. I picked up Dante like 3 weeks ago and I’m sure I know more about Dante than you probably ever have. He’s a rather technical character but compared to Zero you can definitely just go around doing any old shit with an assist and then know some combos and you’re officially a scary Dante that’s a pain to land clean hits on. Which then if you bother to learn any of his execution based pressure techniques that just puts you on another level.
Typical stream monster “this character is too hard to be top tier” shit. How the hell have the Japanese won anything ever when they usually win shit with characters in games that have serious execution barriers? Dante is child’s play compared to shit from like Guilty Gear or MVC2. Not that his execution isn’t difficult but shit’s definitely easier to do than most of the stuff that was hard in other games. Dante is not on this super high pedestal of execution if you compare other games.
I have one of my friends who’s pretty much decided on switching from Wesker to Dante just because Dante is that good.
Dante’s cr.L is good but so is his standing L and M. The range is so ridiculous, all over his head and in front of him and the system allows fuzzy hits to completely string. What an exaggeration to claim he only has one good ground normal.
Guy… understand something about tier lists… they aren’t team based. Or at the very least, this particular one, and most others, are not. So what Dante can do, WITH AN ASSIST, is pretty much a moot point now isn’t it?
When going for the whole overly cocky, arrogant jackass approach to things, please at least comprehend the very basics of the subject being discussed so that you might avoid basing a counter-argument on one of the few exclusions of the topic at hand. Hell, even if you did know more about Dante than I do, you clearly would understand less about… well, probably alot of things. (See what I did there? That brand of arrogant, cocky jackass was ALOT less fail, now wasn’t it?)
Viper is A tier easy, and probably S tier. That’s not even taking into consideration the things she can do that are actually hard. She doesn’t see much play because you can get similar results with simpler characters like wolverine. Just don’t confuse complexity with weakness. She has the best damage, among the best zoning, among the best mixup, and among the best setups for incoming characters in the whole game.
Dante has alot of moves but his gameplan is very simple and direct, he isn’t really complicated. Plus he has an assist which people can exploit in alot of situations.
Normals are vipers only sore spot, and they aren’t really bad at all.
More of these underhanded remarks… anybody in this thread got the balls to be direct about things? I know it’s the internet, but ffs…
Scrubs tend to fail to comprehend frame data well enough to realize that while some characters can throw out normals and maybe not get punished for it, some cant. Dante… he’s one of those cants. Or rather, you could, but you better be damn certain you remember to have a backup plan for the punish that follows. This means if you’ve got no help, you best remember to bold cancel and block, or you’re probably fucked. Which, since help from assists is excluded from this particular tier discussion, means you better bold cancel everything blocked. Fireworks works well enough for making screwups “safe” as well I suppose… Weasel Shot can be a little finicky sometimes.
Frame data doesn’t have to say that… match experience says it all too well. Block one of Dante’s normals and there’s a pretty good chance your entire team can punish it before Dante can even consider blocking. Again, unless you intend to bold cancel all of them. And if your execution is that perfect, you should probably be playing Doom
And on that note, until someone has something to say to me directly, or purposes a reasonably intelligent argument for something I’ve said that compels me to believe otherwise, this thread doesn’t exist. Most of these pointless tier threads turn into pissing contests, but this one has the unique property of having an excessive amount of squatting pissers in it.
Yeah Viper is very reliant on special moves to make herself scary and her normals while decent once she gets in are not very scary outside of close range and in this game if you dont have ridiculous ranged hit boxes you’re at a deficit compared to the rest. Making Viper S tier would pretty much entail cracking out her special move execution to the point where her lack of ranged normals is a non issue which I dont really see happening in a game where stray normal hits just lead to death.
Dante has a great mix of stuff that a newer player can just mash on and get into and then if you wanna step into advanced shit that makes him more solid you can do so also. Viper pretty much doesn’t have anything for a newer player to really get into because her normals are rather short and she doesn’t have anything that just instantly teleports her off the screen or a dive kick that gives a free ground bounce or any BS easy shit like that.
Dante’s s.L is negative 3 on block and his c.L is only negative one on block. Unless you play some character that has 3 or 1 frame normals I dont see how you’re going to be punishing that. This is not even considering the fact that a Dante player is going to be using those normals at a range where you wouldn’t be able to reliably punish with anything any ways. Both normals recover very quickly also so even whiff punishing is tough. Even if you were to have a 3 frame normal to punish his s.L that would be a 1 frame punish and not even practical for tournament play. You have to remember this is Marvel where you can call assist or cancel into anything else during anything you do. This isn’t SF where you just read the guide and you can punish shit. You can theoretically punish some things Dante does until he mashes on assist and teleports in the middle of it. Now you’re in a shit situation for something that’s supposedly unsafe.
Not to mention Dante has really easy mode option selects with his s.L and c.L. Just do s.L or c.L and slide your finger over to M and H. If you hit the opponent ABC string combos and you get a combo. If you were out of range and it whiffs only the s.L comes out and you can go back to doing whatever. If they block it mash on assist or bold cancel to stay safe. You can even do more advanced stuff like string into stinger (f+H) and then bold cancel that into assist call plus teleport which they can’t advance guard away even from the farthest possible range.
Frames aren’t a big deal when you can use his normals from like half way across the screen and can call assist or bold cancel anytime you’re afraid. If his frames were any better he wouldn’t even be remotely complicated to use.
why is the OP taking into consideration the character’s execution barrier? is it really that important? I mean, if tier lists are to be objective, aren’t they for the most part supposed to take into consideration a character’s tools? A character being on a winning team at Top 8 in tournaments is a result of both the player’s skill (fundamentals, timing, prediction, muscle memory, etc) and the character’s tools. to rank a tier list based on TEAMS and not the individual characters’ tools is a flimsy and moreover subjective basis for character placement on tiers.
if we’re looking at it this way, Dante is easily S tier. Viper is A tier since she lacks mobility and projectiles, unlike Dante. Akuma in A is too high for me imho-- he’s high B at best.
Vipers Seismos are arguably the best projectiles in the game, she certainly doesn’t lack projectiles. Her mobility goes hand in hand with the seismos since she can sit in the active frames with a FADC or just jump cancel to move in with frame advantage.
Yep, there sin’t alot of reason to put in the work when you can Wolverine Wesker Pheonix or Dante. That said, it doesn’t mean she’s weaker than the other good characters, just harder to use at that potential.
Let me repeat this… assists, for this and most tier discussions, are irrelevant. If somebody starts a tier thread where assists are relevant, by all means, assists will be relevant. Until then, they are not.
There’s no argument against the fact that he can bold cancel to make himself safe. That’s what I’ve been saying for 2, 3, or however many posts. But then that makes him an even more “execution heavy” character, which is part of the weighting for tier placement in this particular thread. Granted, bold canceling isn’t difficult, but because it is an extra input it increases the amount of execution required nontheless. Not to mention there’s always the chance you just might screw it up and throw out yet another normal instead. Which, in the case of Dante’s normals, means you’re hit if they hit damn near any button after blocking the prior normal.
Dante doesn’t need to use bold move to cancel most things, he can cancel normally. If your worried about canceling into Bold Move into block, that isn’t execution heavy anymore than chaining L into M is execution heavy.
Except the whole point of Dante’s play style is to be utilized with an assist…
You can’t even play this game without assists. This isn’t SFIV.
All of those issues you’re talking about with Dante’s normals are solved by not screwing up pressing 2 buttons together to bold cancel or just simply blocking and calling an assist. Have you ever used an assist when you played Dante or did you have him in the back or something?
Well then that poses a real problem placing him in S-tier when the tier discussion at hand excludes assists doesn’t it? I mean good grief, is it really that hard for you to understand that concept? Hell, go to the first post and READ IT. Here, I’ll quote it for you
1v1. Not 1v2. Not 1v3. 1v1 does not include assist, because assist + character does not = 1. One character = 1. This means the character is it’s own entity, and not the sum of other characters. Each of the aforementioned statements is a different way of reinforcing what I’ve been trying to get you to comprehend for several posts now - ASSISTS are EXCLUDED from THIS DISCUSSION-.
And I’m not having any reading or reading comprehension issues here… I’m well aware that this tier list has nothing to do with SFIV.
I don’t think anyone’s arguing Dante isn’t S-tier with an assist, but that’s not what we’re talking about here… that type of discussion belongs in a team tier thread if/when one is made.
And yes… you can play this game without assists. Anchor characters do it frequently. For that matter, nothing says you have to call an assists even when one is available. You can even practice without assists in one of the event modes. It’s just about the only semi-decent practice to be had against the A.I. when no one is available to play for that matter.
Forgive me if I’m starting to come off as a jackass, but I have no other idea how to get you to understand that assists do not come into play here, at all.
The OP said that their ability without assists is one of the criteria for tiering them. NOT the only one. If that was the case Wolverine would not be in the OP’s S tier at all. If we only had to fight Wolverine without an assist he would not be the crazy problem he is now.
Dante is still very capable especially if he has meter for Devil Trigger without an assist. Gets free chip opportunities and can clear out assists. His mix up and block string pressure is more limited without assists but he still gets box jump left rights and teleport high low should they not air throw it on reaction which is still surprisingly actually better than some character’s entire mix up games.
I dont know if you like dont use assists when you play your characters or not but if you dont you really should get into doing so regularly. That’s what Marvel is about. Completing your characters with assists.
You sure have a lot of theory concerning Dante’s position on the tier list but even if we’re talking on a single character’s merits, who’s blowin up Dante in a 1v1? Since he’s not S you must have a ton of examples to show me of a few characters having a big matchup advantage over him to warrant him not being there.
No, nobody plays effective Skrull players because nobody plays Skrull. And nobody plays Skrull because it’s easier to play what everybody else is playing.
I’ve been maining Skrull+Wesker for a while now and Skrull’s resets are scarier (and more damaging, and just as varied) than Wesker’s. You don’t mix people up with him, you get hits with him by punishing other people pressing buttons, which is something he does better than almost anyone on the cast.
The ability to Meteor Smash your current location alone is one of the best tools he has, and it completely shuts down most characters’ ground advances when you get used to timing it properly (it works wonders when Wolverine comes in swinging, for example).
Both of his main offensive punishes - Meteor Smash and j. down+H - hit Akuma out of Tatsu, which most characters either have to dodge, block or spend a meter to punish. They’re also both overheads.
Several “GTFO” type assists which cause opponents to air tech (i.e. She-Hulk’s Somersault, Hulk’s AA Charge, Storm’s Lightning Attack, Dante’s Jam Session, Viper’s Thunder Knuckle, etc.) give him a free 50-50 into his command throw, into ~600k and another 50-50, which will kill anyone from full health if it hits, at no meter cost, with no assists and requiring no xfactor
He can end any combo, anywhere on the screen into a 50-50 reset into his command throw, which can’t be teched and against which you can’t mash out of (unlike resets by most other characters).
He can punish most whiffed moves by most characters from anywhere on the screen and lead it back into his standard reset situation
His ground command throw can catch people from full screen. You’re never out of his range if you’re on the ground.
At certain ranges Meteor Smash causes a cross-up and becomes extremely easy to hit. Most people have never fought a good Skrull, don’t know where this range is, and block the wrong way.
Most characters with projectiles can’t zone him effectively thanks to meteor smash, full screen command throws and anti-air command throws
Advancing guard + command throw can punish otherwise safe normals.
He can very easily punish several common cover assists on reaction at any time, from anywhere on screen. In particular, Sentinel drones assist is completely useless against him. He’s one of the few characters on the entire cast you actually never want to call drones against.
He’s also one of the few characters Phoenix can’t jump back + fireball safely against, also due to Meteor Smash
Meteor Smash is cancellable into Inferno before he lands. If someone uses a super right after you start a smash, you can actually cancel into Inferno right above them, before you land and never get hit by it, while hitting them for full damage. This tends to be useful against Ryu, Akuma and Dormammu.
Almost everyone who plays this game air techs the exact same way every time. Everyone has a pattern and it’s usually very easy to read. Most people don’t pay attention to this because their characters don’t take very much advantage of it. Every time Skrull guesses correctly on 1 (read: one) air tech - which he’ll cause with every combo - he makes a dead character. I usually catch people about 80% of the time I try for a reset on average, even after playing them for hours, when they know I’m going for it.
His standard combo off j.down+H or command throw, as well as his standard reset follow up are meter neutral. Assist can make it longer and meter positive.
He shuts down options for a lot of characters. Characters like Amaterasu and Spencer can’t air dash/grapple on him or they get thrown. Characters like Hulk, Haggar, Sentinel, Tron and Doom can neither jump at him nor stand in front of him or they get thrown. Armored normals beat unarmored normals. Command throw beats both.
He doesn’t really have any bad matchups. He does better versus certain characters, but there’s nobody that gives him huge problems.
He’s effective anywhere on a team - there aren’t any positions he’s a waste in. He’s a great point character, his assists can extend combos and the speed increase during xfactor and his ability to do full combos without assists, as well as the 450k damage on his level 3 all make him fairly dangerous as an anchor.
If that was the only criteria for this tier discussion, I wouldn’t have listed the othe…
You know what… fuck it. I’ve already got a wall to talk to if I thought it was that entertaining. Do what you do brah…
Read the tier list directly below my first post before becoming another individual who fails to flex their opinion upon me.
And if you’re looking for a “big matchup advantage,” you need to compare the S and A tiers to the D tier. Not the S tier to the A tier. If you don’t understand why… travel back to the past, do research on how tier lists are usually constructed, and then attempt to re-enter the debate. Assuming I allow there to be an debate to begin with, because there’s a very good chance I’ll just stop responding in the middle of this sente…
