Modok simply needs to be higher up. He has so much to bring to the table. Sure his normals are ass, but he keeps the fight away from him so perfectly it doesn’t even matter!
Just because a character is higher on a tier list than another doesn’t mean that they can’t have a shitty match-up with someone marginally lower. Case in point, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core:
A-Tier: Order-Sol
B-Tier: Johnny
Guess who has the match-up advantage?
How bout another one
Super Street Fighter IV
A-Tier: Dictator
Guile
Guile has 7-3 advantage 
Someone needs to brush up on their tier list comprehension.
That’s the problem… you need to use Ironman to understand why people give up on him. Iron Man was popular in MvC2, lots of players who played Iron Man in MvC2 have tired desperately to get him to work and in the end they concluded that he’s garbage. His list of cons:
- Some of the worst ground normals in the game
- Extremely hard time in hit confirming
- Laucher has an absurd recovery
- Dash cancels too slowly (which is why he has a hard time getting in on anyone)
- lvl 3 isn’t that good
- Combos are difficult to perform, execution barrier is as high if not higher than C Viper (which is why putting C Viper lower than Iron Man because of execution doesn’t make sense)
At the moment the only good Iron Man is Flash Metroid’s… and most people are struggling to figure out how he manages to play Iron Man so well. It takes a bloody lot of skill to get Iron Man working, and in the end the payoff is nowhere near as much as the best C Vipers out there.
That’s cute and all but tier lists are not made for the purpose of selecting characters.
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I know how you feel. I’m hella lazy with Ammy. Mostly because I’m too used to winning with her lol.
^lol@the last part
- You never said her s.L did let alone mentioned it as if she couldn’t hit low with an L. I suggest you be more clearer if that’s not too hard for you.
- You talk about Morrigan’s c.M like she’s supposed to play footsies or some shit.
- Doesn’t really matter about being wrong about fastest L because outside Dark Phoenix and Amaterasu the fastest will be a L with a 4 frame startup such as Morrigan’s which is fast enough to hit someone like say Trish when they’re face to face.
- You thought Trish had faster Ls than Morrigan and call me misinformed. You never said anything to backup your claims, instead you just whined “Trish is better like this. Trish is better like that,” in your posts and threw some stuff that was either partially true or not true at all. I do agree you can tri jump with Morrigan offensively, but that’s just one of her many options in the air. The rest I already mentioned. Her air S does not prevent her from doing damaging combos. What you fail to understand is what Morrigan does damage-wise airborne. You’re just assuming that her S and H are downfalls because they hit a million times and that’s day 1 Morrigan 4 months ago.
- It’s not so much I mind the argument. It’s just how fiercely you defend something with false information or no information at all. So if you want to continue, you can start by convincing me with a mature version of how Trish is better than Morrigan offensively. If not, we’re done.
- Forgot to add, Morrigan abuses the DHC glitch with Astral Vision (more power to her), but if I recall correctly, Trish can start the glitch, right?
To jump in on the Dante-no-assist stuff: Dante’s offence without assists is more conditional and to make his offence safer without assists, like mentioned before, you’ll have to bold cancel or cancel into other specials. You have the option of bold cancelling a blocked normal in a string into Bold Move or even cancel it before it hits(looks like it’ll hit but it won’t) into a cross-up airdash j.H, but you run the risk of eating an air throw(you can OS your j.H with airthrow however) or a mashed jab. You can swap out the cross-up j.H for Hammer, which’ll beat out mashed jabs, but lose to airthrow. Or you can simply cancel it into an backwards airdash, but then you’re not in their face anymore.
Without assists, IMO, Dante should really be cancelling his normals on block(or whiff) into specials like Reverb Shock and Crystal. Reverb Shock keeps you in against advancing guard and Crystal leaves you at +8 on block(though you can get advancing guarded.) Dante can cancel projectiles like Hysteric(missiles) or Crystal and cancel into Devil Trigger and create a teleport mix-up off that. Plus you can always throw out Hammer without much consequence since it’s totally invincible and leaves him at like +15-20 on block and on hit, it’s a free combo. There’s something other stuff like cancelling air normals into Hammer and getting it to hit or whiff intentionally to create a guessing game but that’s kinda funky.
Anyway, Dante’s versatile enough that he doesn’t have to rely on rushdown all the time anyway since he can control space extremely well. But yes, assists make his offence much better and can cover up his other weaknesses like being bad up-close due to his slow normals, so defensive assists back him up. Despite this, IMO, Dante’s still a contender for S tier because of his versatility, his tools, his damage, his meter building and his assists.
Ok, I’ll bite.
First of all, for your low-tier attempt at being a jackass to be valid, I’ll need to do point out where the following has been stated-
“Any character higher on a tier list than another character is definitively better than any character ranked below their placement on the tier. This is always true, without exception.”
It doesn’t have to be exact wording. I just need to have said that or something similar prior to this post. If you’re unable to locate that statement, I’ll just assume you were intentionally appearing more ignorant than you actually are for the sake of failing to make a valid point. This assumption, the the resulting following statement, may make an ass of both of us, but know I’m sincere when I say I’m only about to proceed to break down my last comment so that you can “tighten up” your reading comprehension… pun intended.
Tier lists are constructed as a broad reference to overall quality of a character. Normally to anyone who’s not an idiot (not saying that you are, of course) it’s a simple enough format. S-tier is better than A tier which is better than B-tier which succeeds C-tier which trumps D-tier. So then it’s also obvious to anyone who’s not an idiot (or attempting to appear as one, again, not saying that you are) that there is a larger difference between the S-tier and the D-tier than there is such a difference between the S-tier and the A-tier. One could even dare say that S and A-tier are often only separated by matter of opinion.
If you asked 10 people to make 10 tier lists of the same overall available characters, the top 10 probably wouldn’t vary much (assuming there are enough characters to allow for such)… and what variation there is would likely occur between a difference of tier placement between A and S (Or perhaps B, depending of course upon how close in placement the “worst” A-tier and “best” B-tier characters are). Such is the nature of the average tier list. Similar in nature is that the A-tier and the B-tier lists would probably have a few interchangeable candidates as well, so on and so forth. So then it should be quite obvious, assuming you were intelligent enough to comprehend this Rubik’s Cube of a setup, that an S-tier character does not necessarily blatantly outclass a character of a lower tier.
It is obviously much more likely that this phenomenon would occur between the S-tier and D-tier than perhaps say… the S-tier and the A-tier, and perhaps even a few B-tier characters. This also does not exclude the potential for a character to, through difference of philosophy and/or assimilated data points, jump multiple tiers. It is simply much more unlikely for a D-tier character to be seen as an S-tier character than it would be for any other pairing of tiers up for comparison. So then to anyone who’s not an ignorant neanderthal (again, not saying that you are) it should be obvious that if one were to use the tier list for the sake of finding “big matchup advantages,” one would probably look to the tiers that are most opposite in nature of each other. In this case, that means the S and the D-tiers. It must however still be kept in mind that tier lists are manifested as a result of a broad spectrum of data points.
So then it is particularly unreasonable to assume that the difference between the S-tier and A-tier is extremely significant in most cases, and completely idiotic to ever assume that there is no possibility for even a D-tier character to contend with or perhaps even beat any character; given that tier lists are comprised of these broadly assimilated data points. The broad nature of these data points makes anything possible, including the potential for the theoretical “worst” character to defeat the theoretical “best” character; and they should at best be used as a guide of sorts rather than a definitive end-all document superseding any and all other forms of relevant opinion and/or data.
Also, there was no need to be shy about asking for a brush up on the function/purpose of tier lists. Although, if you were concerned about embarrassing yourself you could have opted to send me a message directly instead.
This is still of course ASSuME-ing you weren’t intentionally appearing more ignorant than you actually are… though if you were, there’s always the love of the irony that makes it all worth it.
If you actually read to this point, good for you. If you decide to respond remember to either not quote my full post, replace the text with “herp derp,” or simply say “TL;ICR.”
I be trollin… they hatin… but I’m a goblin so trolls be falllllin early…
Cripes I’ve got to drink less, haha…
Can some mod please close this topic? I am starting to wonder how this is any different from the other topic.
Yeah, this topic should just get merged with the other one really…
10/10 would read again.
@Tragedy: You said…
I found two examples (which are admittedly outliers) that prove you can find a big match-up advantage in close tiers. I looked at your tier list and you provided zero explanation on why they are better against Dante specifically in a 1v1 therefore I can’t help but believe your argument holds no water unless you can prove otherwise.
I also realize this has devolved into something completely aside from what I was asking in the first place, this is a mistake on my part. On and btw, I read the whole post. Problem?
I don’t think there are any D-tier characters in this game. Tiers should maybe be something like S, A+, A, B, B-
Just imagine a game where 90% of the cast has only one move and that move does low damage, and 10% has 2 moves that do low damage. The 10% would most like be top tier, but that doesn’t mean they’re S rank. It just means they’re the best in a game filled with crap characters. In MvC3, most characters have really good tools even though they’re bottom tier relatively speaking, but bottom tier doesn’t necessarily mean D.
Why would you take tournament results in a tier list? How does it help it at all except show who is used the most?
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I did mention it numerous times but whatever.
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I think I souls be obvious here that having a fast low means you can high/low better , it makes less able to open somebody up as it becomes easier to block , add to the fact tri dash low with morrigan is not the best , can you cancel her dash on its way down before going back up? with out pressing s if she’s dashing at you what reason is there to block low?
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It don’t matter no, but you stated it was the fastest , It’s not , case closed
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I never said it was faster at all , you need to relises speed of normals isn’t everything , hitboxes make up the other half of that sum , trish has better ones better range , they are safer. and she has a sword , see what I said earlier about her tri dash but its not even h and s shadow blade aswell she suffers from damage scaling like no other character n her damage without a corner n a bag of meter isn’t up to par with trish
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what false information? but ; sword normals , a better dash n air dash , a propper high / low mixup. due to a better fast low ad in some of the best crossups in the game , traps to limit their movement, a dive kick that can be cancled
.6 starting the glitch is better than ending it imo almost any character can end it if they really want to (xfactor) besides trish can use her assist to start it for others
im sorry, i realize now that theres far too many poor posters on forums so a topic like this could never be intelligent. People simply dont read and understand the goals of original posters. They get far to caught up with arguing amongst repliers to even remember what the thread was suppose to be about. Only a select few here argued based on the logic i put forth.
I wouldnt mind the thread being closed but before i do that i want to give my final thoughts as to why i even wanted to make this tier list.
I kind of wanted to prove that although there is a definite clear cut top tier that we all know, i also wanted to the people with knowledge of how good the other characters in the game to come out and speak about it. I partially succeeded but many people still got caught up on the top echelon.
If you believe a character should be higher for such a such reason you should prove it not just in your post. PICK THE FUCKIN CHARACTER AND BLOW PEOPLE UP WITH THEM. yes it will be more difficult then just picking up the top 5-6 but i guarantee if you get good enough you will have the upper hand because people will not know how to deal with your character.
The Anti-meta are powerful simply because they are not the Meta.
please close this mod.
^
In that case, I’ll make an argument for X-23 like others have.
X-23…she’s extremely reliant on assists to do everything. Needs them to land Weapon X Prime and her level 3 in combos, needs them to get in, needs them to make her Mirage Feint safe, to set up overheads and so on.
I think there are several reasons why people don’t use X-23. 1) Her offence wasn’t figured out. It’s getting figured out, but it’s gonna take time until X-23 players can put it all together. 2) She requires some degree of execution to make her work properly, and that’s already enough to deter people from using her lol. 3) Wolverine, who’s a braindead offensive character and has more health is naturally gonna get picked over her. The two commonly get compared together ability-wise and people see X-23 as a lesser Wolverine, but the two characters operate differently, though their goals are the same(get in there and wreck shop.)
I do believe she has extremely good offensive pressure due to her being able to feint cancel her normals on block, hit or whiff The reason why I say this is because X-23 has high advantage two-hit strings that put her at +12. She has one string that completely locks the opponent in blockstun if it connects, the only way the opponent can escape is by advancing guarding. X-23 has very good ways to get around and punish advancing guard.
M Mirage Feint helps push against advancing guard and keeps them in their face. With assists, it’s even better because you can use Mirage Feint to create cross-ups and set-up for overheads. Because X-23 can cancel her normals on whiff, she can throw off advancing guard timing and make you get a failed advancing guard attempt(comes out as a crouching heavy) which she can blow up with a faster normals, or something that goes over lows, like her air D+H command move done low to the ground. The aerial D+H move can even be used as a standalone attack during offensive pressure because it goes over crouching normals, which throws off advancing guards and beats out cr.L mashing. Her command grab can help get her back in and grab the opponent even when pushed away. So when she gets in, she has a lot of ways to make you worry about how long you can keep blocking and when you can advancing guard.
These vids sum up what I’m talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmzsFrAFTOQ&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSqbS0LvoO0&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOjpNho0p7A&feature=related
And more vids after that.
And then there’s this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h4Xfma0uhI&feature=channel_video_title
In the same way that Wolverine can use level 1 X-Factor to gain a speedy kill, X-23 can also make use of this. Her issue is that if you want to kill off a character, you’re gonna have to use long combos, which drain the X-Factor timer, whereas Wolverine just kills a character straight away in-time for the next one and still have enough. Plus she can’t get big damage from airthrows into an X-Factor combo, like Wolverine can. But in turn, because X-23 can build a lot of meter, she can kill off a character with a meterless loop in X-Factor and gain 2 bars to add on to the 1 bar you auto-start off with, giving her three bars. That 3 bars is yours to do whatever you wish with. You could theoretically DHC glitch the remaining two characters to death for a clean sweep. If Phoenix’s on their team, you can build up 4 bars on the next character with a loop, cancel into snapback, use a lockdown assist on Phoenix and watch her die when you activate Silent Kill, guaranteed. X-23’s offence places relies on blockstring pressure, command grabs, frametraps and advancing guard punishment combined with assists to create further options until the opponent cracks.
Video summing that all up as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB6fxvvxPOk&feature=channel_video_title
The problem with X-23 that other X-23 players have pointed out are that her normals, while good, don’t have good hitboxes, apart from maybe her standing M. And while she can feint cancel pokes like her standing H to cut down the whiff recovery and hitconfirm a combo off it, which has really good range, it’s still not that fast and it’s a high move so crouching normals will go under it. X-23 generally can’t generate good damage from random pokes(unless she’s using the DHC glitch), so her max damage needs to be from up close. She’s absolutely reliant on assists to get in, so she’s easier than most to keep out without assists backing her. Wolverine needs assists to mix you up and get in to an extent, but as long as he’s got meter to burn, he can just Berserker Slash>Berserker Charge and he’ll get in with the outcome depending on whether or not you blocked the right way. X-23 can’t 50-50 you from range anytime she feels like it, even with assists.
Another thing they mentioned which I pretty much agree with; good characters with good hitboxes on their normals who’re able to generate good damage off random hits really easily are doing well in this game. Characters like Zero, unless you’re playing as someone like Dante swinging normals from range, you’re not gonna beat his normals. He’ll hit you randomly and then you die. Wolverine, better cr.L than X-23’s, stray divekick which has an amazing hitbox hits you in the air and groundbouces you, dead. Getting high damage from anti-air situations like Wolverine can isn’t as easy with X-23.
X-23 has the tools of a potential high tier character. Can start the DHC glitch really well, generates good meter, probably one of the best Level 3s in the game, if not the best which provides her with a** surefire way to kill Phoenix off a snapback, which could be very powerful later on and she could be a good counter to the current meta where Phoenix teams are gaining popularity. **She’s pretty speedy and a variety of offensive measures once she can actually get in. She shows a lot of potential, but until somebody puts it all together, it’s just that, potential. Most people don’t have time for potential right now, they just need something that works so they can compete quickly with all the other BS running around in this game.
That was long.
TLDR version: X-23 has things going for her that are pretty good, but it’s harder than just picking Wolverine lol.
This thread is fucking sad. You have pseudo Dante players who come and say that his normals aren’t safe when from the right range, even if they were -10, they’re not punishable. When he can cancel them into reverb shock>fireworks and gain frame advantage and go back to his optimal range.
You have people saying Dante on his own sucks when he can self assist himself, set up 50/50s on his own, has normals that are ambiguous crossups with a simple square jump, can zone 3/4 of the cast for free and has two of the best invincible moves in the game that set up ToDs, has a level 3 that covers 3/4 of the screen and leads to ToDs. Most importantly, he doesn’t need XF3 to kill people on his own unlike some of america’s favorite anchors.
You have people arguing that Morrigan is better than Trish and trying to prove that by using a CMV that makes me lol. It’s like they don’t realize that Trish can do everything morrigan can do better + some more.
You have people who thinks assists/partners are irrelevant in a tier list for a team game. LOL.
Then you have people throwing out the"you’re not worth arguing with" when they clearly have nothing to say.
Someone please lock this thread.
I remember giving an almost the same tier list and for some reason, and it got hate. I did, however put sent over wolvie (which i admit was wrong)… i guess it was my bias and living in the past.
S tier is (any order): Phoenix, Mags, wolvie, wesker, dante, Zero
A tier - Sent, Ammy, Shehulk, Akuma, Tron, Task or Doom…
I’m debating between taskmaster and doom for A tier.
Clockworks performance with Doom gave me a bit of thought concerning Doom. I’ve seen doom’s do better than dormammu’s in some cases. Maybe he the opinion would be on who requires more work? I don’t know… i’m slowly leaning towards doom for A tier.
Tron has to be A tier… she’s the most helpful character assist wise and she also has one of the most insane hitboxes with combo strings. Being able to help a character as an assist and also do well on point is a plus.
— below that, everyone has good equality. i think it just depends on your opinion.
My opinion on B tier is
Spencer, Taskmaster or Doom, Dormammu, Spiderman,