can meaty j.mk crossup be used to beat zangief’s lariat on wakeup? i’ve used it before and it worked, but i’m guessing even if the answer is yes, zangief might be able to autocorrect ex gh, or even invincible ex spd or something to beat you. in that case, what do you guys tend to do vs zangief on wakeup?
I know for a fact that after a forward throw, the double jump - cross up j.MK scores a counterhit if Gief attempts to use either Lariat. I have no idea what happens if he tried an EX Green Hand instead though.
And to be honest, unless I knocked Gief down with a throw I normally stay away from his wake ups. Elbow drop gets beaten by lariat, all run variations can be spd’d on block. The only thing you can do is abuse your better pokes and safe normal attacks from the correct distance.
A late lariat will beat any jumpin. Giefs can just crouch and beat both elbow or crossup options just by doing late lariat – the elbow comes out earlier than the crossup so it will become an option select for him – he’ll block the early elbow (because it doesn’t hit overhead) or even lariat it, and lariat AA the crossup. However, lariat’s startup is 4f, so it can be safe-jumped. But beware, if the Gief players knows what you’re doing then he’ll be able to counter it with EX SPD.
Another way is to do an elbow to cut your jump to land just outside SPD/lariat range to bait them.
Also, a meaty LP/EX bushin flip will beat every reversal attempt Gief can do except backdash. You can also try to do it non-meaty by catching their lariat (since it’s throwable), but that’s riskier. And usually, EX GH is a crap option againt jumpins because it’s pretty slow.
Your best option in this matchup is to pretty much stay out of SPD range and poke him.
thanks for the pot of gold of info. also, i think if gief goes for the crossup on your wakeup, like after a forward throw or other kind of knockdown, an OS EX GH will still be absorbed by guy’s ex run i think right? i’m a bit worried that if it autocorrects guy will ex run right into gief, but you can probably go for the slide and it will either beat the ex gh if you time it right or run away safely i think, but if it autocorrect and gief goes for the spd that could be very bad, lol. furthermore, i think gief can do short jump (fake cross up) and screw you even worse, so ex run could be a very bad option since you’ll run directly into his hands no matter what.
so, to build off of that, i have another in depth question: so what do you guys do vs gief on guy’s wakeup? i know there is no one universal option to always do, as such is the nature of option selects and guessing games. i did find this below:
kn14 said: If you are in the vortex it?s pretty sucky as you guessing wrong favors him and you guessing right just resets the match. You really have to vary your escape attempts here because Gief has an answer for every one of your responses. I use focus backdash, ex-tatsu, ex-bushin flip, normal throw and old fashioned blocking.
Ex-tatsu is the obvious go-to. It will beat jump-ins but can be safe jumped and is super bait-able.
Focus backdash is to deal with jump-in attack + c.lp spam but loses to ex-greenhand if he sees the backdash coming.
Ex-bushin flip is good if you suspect a safe jump into SPD because it?s unthrowable. Loses to jumpin-lariat and I think c.lp spam because of start-up.
If Gief goes for jump-in with down+lk (knee attack) and then goes for normals you can throw him before his normals come out. Obviously this loses to SPD.
anything else to add to this?
For a little mind game, if I have gief in the corner on knockdown, I pretend to cross him up by jumping in the corner, bait lariat because that’s what Giefs do if they’re being crossed up, and wall jump instead. If he did the lariat you have enough time to elbow drop and run/slide for punish> another knockdown.
Then you can try to really cross him up(risky)/throw/bushin flip. But generally I like this strategy because it pressures them on their wake up in the corner.
Ah… what set ups do you use to get LP bushin flip to meaty Gief? Definitely sounds useful.
Vs Honda
Guy has a nice follow up after Run Slide. So if Honda does Fierce Headbutt and you reverse it with Run Slide, if you predict another Normal Headbutt from Honda, you can counter it with the following. After you land Run Slide, Back Dash and then input Medium Hozanto. Medium Hozanto will beat all Normal Versions of Headbutt on wake, beats all versions of Honda Hand Slap and whiffs on all versions of Sumo Drop. (Just note that Low and Medium Sumo Drop can hit you coming down). As good as this may sound its still risky. Honda can counter with Ex Headbutt and any version of Grab.
Another good follow up of Run Slide is Bushin Flip. So after you land Run Slide, Forward Dash and input…
a. Low Bushin Flip; beats all versions of Headbutt except Low version. (beats Ex Headbutt on wake)
b. Ex Bushin Flip; beats only Low Headbutt, other versions will whiff (Honda will get away).
Any of you guys know some jump in set ups versus Ken? Anything versus reversal timed or delayed DPs on wake up. If I had another set up to at least mix up with that would be great but currently now I have to jump sparingly against the better Ken players after knockdowns which brings tears to my eyes.
If it is from a throw (say forward throw) I will run right up to them a pause for a flash then lp bushin will grab all dps even reversals.
Sounds good, I’ll try it tomorrow, any further set ups off bushin flip? :wgrin:
Its good for a surprise don’t use it to much but if you nail them a couple of times it should stop them from wake up DP.
Well, forward throw, whiff lp.hozanto, jump mk is a safejump setup against 3 frame reversals. Problem is it only connects if they don’t block (block animation makes them just small enough so that it whiffs). If they’ve never seen in it, they might take the bait and try to dp, otherwise it’s kinda limited in use.
Edit: I posted it in one of Streak’s threads a while ago. Forget which one.
you should post that in the safe jump thread so we can compile this information for guy players.
So you will get thrown out of this if they tech/throw on wakeup?
No, because you’re way out of throw range. That’s why it beats 3 frame reversals.
so i read that c.mp is a situational anti air against ryu’s j.hp (which gives me the most trouble). probably c.mp works at longer distances right? at least for me. but it seems like ryu is jumping in at a distance closer than that and still beating my c.mp. so perhaps this is what is meant by “situational”. so…
i know i can ex tatsu, but any other recommendations? i tried neutral jump j.hk and mk to some moderate success.
I’d try Fierce punch may have succession or TK Izuna (non EX see if that works). I normally just block it instead of trying to beat it unless I have meter.
Also Losha nice to finally play you 
I was playing on Gmans acct.
I was sadly flustered with some things during the end of the session, but you had me going with the mix up in the corner, and solid run/stop pressure and Psychic Izunas. Hopefully I’ll fight you again sometime.
Just a quick thing that works for me quite a bit against Giefs Vortex. If he sweeps you or forward throws you and goes for a meaty crossup this won’t work, but if he does the knockdown, empty jump over you into a crossup you can try C.Rh. I’ve had success with this escaping the vortex all together as you slide away from the second jump. Make sure to hold downback in the right direction or you get the ninja sickle which still isn’t that bad because it just results in an air reset. I’ve tested this stuff a little bit in training mode, but my timing could have been off slightly as it was late and I was tired, but it has worked in matches against this common gief tactic.
ggs. I’ve been trying to use izunas more, theyre great for AA… Also, since I really have to say something worthwhile, standing far fierce is a pretty good poke against Gief I think.
ST Fierce is a good poke all around but that move next to ST HK is just amazing against Gief…