For the sake of solid game play, I agree. Well said, well thought out. I never intended to use Izuna or EX Izuna on Chun’s wakeup a hell of a lot, it’d be just something I do randomly. I like what you say about OSing Chun though.
long time no see guys 
right now i’m mostly still a bison player and i’m planning to go to a tournament here in cali soon. i’m trying to identify the options every character can use to shut down the EX Psychocrusher as a getaway option on bison’s wakeup. For example, after the knockdown, ryu has jump in OS DP, chun li can downforward roundhouse and kick from behind, and she also has an OS c.hk or s.hk upon jump in.
What are guy’s options to beat this escape option? If you are extra generous, please let me know how you option select/straight up beat EX Devil’s reverse and teleport as well
Jump in EX Tatsu or MK tatsu.
Depending on the time Guy blocks it he may be able to Run/Slide or EX Hozanto you before you recover If i recall
He can Bushin Flip and I think Izuna
Also isn’t it possible for Guy to grab him out of it with U2?
Guy’s standard OS select off safejump is cr.lp then cr.lp+cr.hk to either nail a backdash or continue pressure. If timed perfectlyoff his normal safejump setup, I think this one would actually lose to EX PC because it has such slow startup. When safejumping Bison it’s actually a good idea to wait a split second (~8 frames) before jumping if you’re going for an OS.
If you’re not going for an OS, you can just safejump and react to all his reveral options fairly easily. EX PC can be punished by reversal run slide every time. EX DR and EX stomp both lose to cr.mk or EX Izuna or a well timed jump hp or blah blah blah (you get the idea). Blocked EX scissors is a free combo and teleport can also be punished with either run slide or ex Hozanto if you’re on point.
Basically, Bison sucks on wakeup (he’s my main too) despite all his wakeup options. If I was going to option select him and was expecting a reversal, I’d actually jump in late, block for a split second, and then hold upforward to catch either jumping options and nail the teleport. The only options this wouldn’t cover would be him doing nothing (big risk, I’ll admit) or a back teleport (which they would probably never do because it’s indredibly risky to begin with).
The most likely outcome would be an EX PC which you’ll block and punish with run slide to setup another safe jump.
Hope that helps.
you can also OS a lp or mp shoulder to go through the Psycho crusher, but its not as reliable as mk or ex.tatsu, IME
I also found a really good OS against viper after scoring a knockdown. it’ll be in a new OS video I’m working on
thanks you guys for being so damn awesome. if you don’t mind, i’ll probably post this in the bison forums as well and credit you guys properly. i’m sure bison forums wouldn’t mind the same kind of questions… i think shared knowledge will up the level of our games.
Brief changes regarding updating this thread:
[LIST]
[] Full update of the thread next weekend (October 30th - 31st).
[] During this week, I’ll be posting write ups for Ken, Fei Long, and possibly Dee Jay.
[/LIST]
I’ve spent a lot of time in training mode today. Reversal U2 doesn’t punish MK Flame Kick > FADC forward from Fei Long. However, it does punish all SRK > FADC forward situations from Ken.
To make the wait seem a little worth while, here’s a snippet of my Ken write up:
Preview
Spoiler
Hadouken (Fireball):
If Ken decides to stay back and zone at any point during a match, he is going to start throwing out his fireball. Luckily, Ken’s fireballs pale in comparison to those of Ryu and Akuma, so finding a way to get around those fireballs is an easy task for Guy. Guy has so many tools to get in against the projectiles. Hozanto, Bushin Flip, and EX Run can all be used to approach Ken directly. Command Elbow (down + MP in air) should be used to approach Ken conservatively. He should ideally stay in the range where MP Hozanto will punish the fireballs on reaction. MP Hozanto will score a knockdown and push Ken towards the corner where Guy truly shines.
By the Numbers (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
When performing his projectiles, Ken has 14 frames of start up. His fireball animation has a total duration of 47 frames. His EX fireball animation has a total duration of 44 frames. The longest total duration of a fireball animation from Ryu and Akuma is 44 frames (with the exception of Akuma’s Shakunetsu Hadouken / Red Fireball). Guy’s MP and HP Hozantos hit on the 23rd frame and 30th frame, respectively.
Punishment (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
Unless the Ken player has never played Street Fighter before, he (or she) will never send out a Fireball while being right next to Guy. In order to punish Ken’s Fireballs, Guy players need to look for the ranges where cr.MK xx Fireball is not a true block string. See the block strings section below. (Note: I found in training mode today that cr.MK xx Fireball is never a true block string.)
I’ll try to make my write up for Fei Long as detailed as the one for Ken (not sure about Dee Jay).
Guy - M.Bison matchup
when u guys talking about Guy OS jump in EX.Tatsu against bison EX.PC, u mean it will punish Bison? because from my experience it goes through without hiting.
also about dealing with bison scissors pressure, what I found out is:
c.mk will take Bison SK and s.mk but will lose to c.lk and cl.hk
s.mp will take Bison s.mk and s.hk but will lose to SK and c.lk
mk.tatsu will take Bison SK and c.lk, but will lose to cl.hk and s.mk, and is very unsafe on block (luckly Bison can punish that well witout ultra).
c.mp loses to every option i mentiond b4, and guy’s pokes loses to Bison c.lk, SK and won’t hit Bison that stand a bit far and spam s.mk and s.hk
does Guy have any better option to deal with bison pressure? or is it just a spacing and guessing game in Bison favor?
haha I did’nt know I was credited contribution to vs. Adon, I posted that vid a long time ago on punishing some of his abusive stuff. I just wanted to say thanks for giving me some credit on it streak. I had forgot about that. Take care.
The timing for this OS EX Bushin Senpukyaku setup is different than the one that you’re accustomed to performing. Here’s a video that shows the OS EX BSK not hitting the wake up EX Psycho Crusher:
[media=youtube]EeXbh3e-REY[/media]
And, here’s a video that shows the OS EX BSK hitting the wake up EX Psycho Crusher:
[media=youtube]jrQPiLaHjdU[/media].
In short, you’re press the MK button earlier to get the EX BSK to hit.
^^ This loses to EX stomp and EX DR, right?
Sadly, yes, it loses to both EX Head Stomp and Devil’s Reverse.
Guy vs. Ken - Match Up Thoughts
Ken’s Special, Super, and Ultra Moves
Hadouken (Fireball):
If Ken decides to stay back and zone at any point during a match, he is going to start throwing out his fireball. Luckily, his fireballs pale in comparison to those of Ryu and Akuma, so finding a way to get around them is an easy task for Guy. Guy has so many tools to get in against the projectiles. Hozanto, Bushin Flip, and EX Run can all be used to approach Ken directly. Command Elbow (down + MP in air) should be used to approach Ken conservatively. He should ideally stay in the range where MP Hozanto will punish the fireballs on reaction. MP Hozanto will score a knockdown and push Ken towards the corner where Guy truly shines.
By the Numbers (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
When performing his projectiles, Ken has 14 frames of start up. His fireball animation has a total duration of 47 frames. His EX fireball animation has a total duration of 44 frames. The longest total duration of a fireball animation from Ryu and Akuma is 44 frames (with the exception of Akuma’s Shakunetsu Hadouken / Red Fireball). Guy’s MP and HP Hozantos hit on the 23rd frame and 30th frame, respectively.
Punishment (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
Unfortunately for Ken, cr.MK xx Fireball is never a true block string. Due to its projectile invincibility on its start up frames, MK Bushin Senpukyaku punishes these strings if the Ken player becomes predictable.
Shoryuken (Uppercut):
Ken has one invincible special move, his uppercut. As a result, this will be his go-to special move on wake up, if he chooses not to block or back dash. In SSFIV, Capcom decreased the start up and the invincibility frames of his LP and EX uppercuts. If Ken tries to anti-air a jumping Guy, he will most likely use his MP and EX uppercuts because they have the most invincibility frames. Fortunately, if he does try to uppercut at the incorrect range, he will either whiff the Dragon Punch completely or will suffer from “Ken Syndrome.” In this situation, he will land the first hit of his MP or HP uppercut, but will not knock the opponent down. Consequently, Guy will be able to perform a combo of his choice as Ken recovers.
By the Numbers (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
For anti-air purposes, Ken will primarily use his MP and EX Uppercuts, which both hit on the 4th frame. MP Uppercut has 6 frames of complete invincibility, and EX Uppercut has 9 frames of complete invincibility. Ken may occasionally attempt an HP Uppercut from his crouching animation, so he can FADC the first hit (float juggle property on an airborne opponent, second hit preserves the float property) to score a full U1. His HP uppercut hits on the 3rd frame and has 4 frames of invincibility. For counter-hit shenanigans, Ken will throw out his HP Uppercut, since a counter-hit will allow him to land a full U1 after an FADC.
Punishment (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
On block, Ken’s LP, MP, HP, and EX Shoryukens are respectively -14, -29, -30, and -41. In other words, Guy can punish any blocked Shoryuken with the combo of his choice. However, it’s probably not worth trying to punish a blocked LP Shoryuken, especially if you’re playing online. Moreover, if Guy chooses to begin his punish combo with cl.HK, he needs to be precise with his timing. Otherwise, the cl.HK will whiff.
Tatsumaki Senpukyaku (Hurricane Kick):
If Ken ever uses his Hurricane Kicks during a match, he will use his HK and EX Hurricane Kicks at the end of a combo. By performing this special move as a combo finisher, he sets up a guessing game once the combo ends, since the opponent is not knocked down. For cross up attempts, Ken will use the air versions of his LK (and possibly MK) and EX Tatsus. On hit, both can lead into high damage and stun combos.
By the Numbers (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
If Ken decides to end his combos with a Hurricane Kick, he will most likely the HK and EX versions of this special move. HK Hurricane Kick is -1 on hit, and EX Hurricane Kick is +1. In most cases, to get out of Ken’s guessing game after these Hurricane Kicks, a great option is to late crouch tech throw. If Ken chooses to attack after the Tatsu, Guy will block. If Ken chooses to attempt a throw, Guy will tech the throw. Be especially careful when Ken has meter because of his ability to land a full U1 after a counter-hit HP Shoryuken.
Punishment (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
On block, Ken’s LK, MK, HK, and EX Tatsus are respectively -6, -4, -5, and -3. As a result, Guy can punish any blocked, grounded Tatsu with U2. In addition, he can punish any blocked, grounded, non-EX Tatsu with a combo that starts with cr.LP or cr.LK. Remember that most Ken players will only use the Tatsu at the end of a combo, so Guy will most likely never be given the chance to punish this special move.
Shoryureppa (Super):
Because Ken has very good EX versions of his special moves, he probably will not have enough meter to use his super. However, Guy players should not sleep on his super. He can easily combo into it, and it does big damage. It also comes out extremely fast.
By the Numbers (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
LP Super hits on the 2nd frame and has 2 frames of complete invincibility. The MP and HP versions of Ken’s Super hit on the 3rd frame and have 3 frames of complete invincibility.
Punishment (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
All versions of his super leave Ken at -29 on block. Guy is free to punish with the combo of his choice after blocking Ken’s super move.
Shinryuken (Ultra 1):
From my point of view, Ken players will choose U1 in this match up. Despite usually doing very little damage in a combo, U1 is a good choice due to the threat of a full animation following a counter-hit HP Shoryuken. In addition, Guy players should be extremely cautious when jumping (even when using Elbow Drop). Although it takes quite some time to become active, Ken’s U1 can still be used as an anti-air.
By the Numbers (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
U1 hits on the 10th frame and has 11 frames of full invincibility.
Punishment (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
U1 leaves Ken at -94 on block. Guy players have all the time in the world to punish Ken if he doesn’t connect his ultra. Make this punishment opportunity, like all others, count.
Guren Senpukyaku (Ultra 2):
Ken received a great second ultra in SSFIV, but I can’t see how it could be a good choice in the match up with Guy. Maybe Ken players can shed some insight how U2 could be useful here.
By the Numbers (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
U2 hits on the 7th frame and has 8 frames of full invincibility.
Punishment (Using the Frame Data on the SRK Wiki):
U2 leaves Ken at -40 on block. However, if Guy is crouching, Ken’s U2 will begin to whiff after the first hit, so punishing Ken’s U2 may be somewhat tricky. Spend some time in training mode to see what works best for you.
Ken’s Basic Block String and Its Variations:
Ken’s standard block string is:
cr.LK, cr.LP, cr.LP, cr.MK xx Hadouken.
The number of light attacks before the end of the string can vary. Furthermore, cr.MK can be replaced by cr.MP or cr.HP. For the sake of simplicity, let’s just focus on the above string.
Tricks and Shenanigans from Ken’s Basic Block String:
At any point before the cr.MK, Ken can attempt to throw due to the incredible range of his kara throw. Once he has established the threat of the kara throw, Ken can open his bag of tricks.
[LIST]
[] After any number of light attacks, Ken can take a step back to get outside of the range of Guy’s cr.LK. By doing so, if Guy attempts to crouch tech, Ken can take a step forward and then kara throw while Guy recovers. If Ken is successful at landing the throw, he can now perform a meaty attack, a safe jump, a normal cross up, an ambiguous cross up, or a cross up Tatsu. All of these options can lead to disastrous results for Guy. Guy can occasionally beat cross up Tatsu attempts with cr.MK, but I don’t think it’s worth the risk.
[] After any number of light attacks, Ken can take a step back and then perform a cr.MK. If the Guy player is pressing too many buttons, this setup will most likely result in a counter-hit.
[] After any number of light attacks, Ken can fish for a counter-hit by throwing out his HP Shoryuken. If the uppercut is a counter-hit and Ken has enough meter, Guy will be eating a full U1 from Ken.
[] After any number of light attacks, Ken can take a risk and throw out his overhead (back + MK). This setup will catch Guy players who are sleeping.
[/LIST]
Pokes to Use Against Ken:
All of Guy’s standard pokes should work well in this match up:
[LIST]
[] st.MP
[] cr.MP
[] st.MK
[] st.HP
[*] cr.HK
[/LIST]
I don’t find st.HK to be particularly useful in the footsie war against Ken.
Anti-Airs to Use Against Ken:
All of Guy’s standard anti-airs should be effective in this match up:
[LIST]
[] cr.MP
[] cr.MK
[] TK EX Izuna (Air Grab)
[] EX Bushin Senpukyaku
[/LIST]
Be careful of Ken’s j.HP. Don’t risk trying to use a normal anti-air against that attack. Burn the meter and use EX Bushin Senpukyaku.
Other Tips and Tricks to Remember Against Ken:
[LIST]
[] cr.MK xx Hadouken is never a true block string. Get ready to punish predictable Ken players with MK Bushin Senpukyaku.
[] Any Shoryuken > FADC forward situation loses to a reversal U2 from Guy. With Guy’s ability to bait opponents into doing very questionable things, U2 is definitely the ultra of choice in this match up. U1 can be used again Ken, though.
[] If Ken becomes overzealous with his usage of cr.MK in the footsie and poking war, cr.HK will whiff punish the attack.
[] Ken’s step kick (forward + MK) has great priority. What better way to combat a high priority attack with another high priority attack? Try throwing out cr.MP with a buffered EX Hozanto in step kick range.
[] Ken’s Kara EX Air Tatsu is a great way to get out of the corner. It propels him a vast horizontal distance. Luckily, Guy can punish the Kara EX Air Tatsu with a Run > Slide on reaction.
[] Finally, try not to abuse Guy’s Elbow Drop (down + MP in air). Ken can use cr.MK to make the elbow whiff, and in the worst case scenario, he’ll make you land in the cr.MK (and follow with a combo).
[/LIST]
I don’t claim to be an expert Ken or Guy player, but I think the information that I’ve provided is useful. If you have any questions, comments, or criticisms, feel free to let me know. :tup:
^^ very solid info, good write up streak
How do you deal with with shoto cr.mk? st.mk only beats it from specific ranges which the ken player should know to avoid.
im pretty sure j.hk beats it…it might be timing / spacing dependent though. people shouldnt be jumping in on shotos if theyre not on wakeup anyways. too big of a risk lol
Thanks. I’ll start working on my Fei Long write up tomorrow.
I think MADma3str0 once mentioned that Guy’s cr.MK can beat Ryu’s cr.MK. I’ve never tested it, though. I’ve always had more success just trying to whiff punish the Shoto cr.MK. For discussion purposes, here are the hit boxes for Guy’s cr.MK and Ken’s cr.MK:
[LIST]
[] http://i40.tinypic.com/ipmr8y.png
[] http://i44.tinypic.com/dy2a2f.png
[*] http://otersi.com/00_interesting_frames/ken_cmk.png
[/LIST]
yea guy’s cr. forward can beat out shoto cr. forward… but it’s space dependent. it’s been a while since i tested it but i’m pretty sure you have to be pretty far. the advantage is… it’s a knockdown if you can tag the shoto’s cr. forward. no good shoto is gonna be throwing out cr. forward’s from that far though. i stick to st. forward to keep them out. it beats out their cr. forward very consistently.
something i’ve been experimenting with lately is spacing to get their cr. forward to whiff and whiff punish with cr. short xx EX shoulder. works pretty well if you’ve got good spacing. and of course it’ll push them to the corner which is always great for guy.
regarding the bison tatsu OS, a mk.tatsu will hit his EX.PC and it avoids headstomp.
That’s the thing though. Guy has to be spot on whereas shotos can just spam that thing. It rapes the elbow and beats tatsus too.
Yes you can jump hk from the right range, but you have to hit the button extremely late which means they’ll probably anti air you before you get there anyway.
Shoto matches are quickly becoming my hardest fights; all because of cr.mk.