It’s not that hard, you can just buffer the motion during the dash. The problem is that it doesn’t work against everyone and sometimes the ex palm hits “funny” depending on the spacing, leading to a prompt death after the roflcopter lets them drop to the ground while it stays in the air for another 10 minutes. Most good Gouken players will know who it does and doesn’t work against though. And he can actually connect U1 of an ex palm outside of the corner without FADC’ing, but that’s alot harder.
You should be aware that Gouken can get a very ambiguous divekick off his regular throw. He’ll dash and go for the demonflip divekick and hit DEEP, beating most reversal dragon punches by hitting them in the back. I assume ex tatsu loses to this too.
As was said, you get the knockdown, you should win agianst Gouken. His reversal options are limited, easy to bait, and frankly suck. Whiffed counter = death. Many characters can go under EX hurricane and you can easily meet EX demon flip in the air on reaction.
p.s. Gouken’s U2 is ass. No one worth a damn will be using it. It can connect in a few instances where U1 won’t, but the damage is pitiful unless fully charged(and that’s just not going to happen).
^^ agreed regarding U2’s damage and setups. almost everything you can do with U2, you can do with U1. although some Goukens who focus a lot on stun will choose U2 because it does 50 stun for every blocked hit (or so ive been told, never tested it but i heard this from a reliable source)
Gouken can punish a big mistake for big damage with only one ex. Hp xx ex palm->…dash, hk tatsu for damage, ->…mp palm for better pressure and wakeup, ->…and if you are on corner, even bigger combos and resets.
But the point here is that fireballs are out of the equation, so he is forced to play footsies or divekick things with you.
If he saves up super, bait a counter. He can combo his super if he lands any counter, and with plenty of time to hit confirm, so he might fish for counters even more (or backthrow, as usual). f+mp xx hozanto cancel works well.
I dont know if its been posted before but …setup for elbow crossup on honda … …the elbow whiffs on stand blocking but honda gets hit if he crouch blocks …OS with c.lk would probably hit him…and its safe against all reversals and beats butt-splash … needs more testing though…delaying headbutt might beat it…
I think this might help a bit in the honda matchup :x …
I’ll completely update the thread with everything new this evening. Probably around 6:00 PM EST.
I’ll edit this post when I’m finished.
not so ninja [e]dit:
Thread updated. I tried to put all of the new, significant information into the first posts of this thread. There were some posts since the last update that were essentially repeating previous details, so I didn’t add them. If someone thinks I left out something important, let me know. :tup:
After playing with Juicebox a couple of days ago, it reinstilled my belief that the matchup is 5:5. I guess i was getting a little ahead of myself by playing Abels that werent really tournament level and starting to think the matchup was becoming 6:4 Guys Favor. Luckily, I got the chance to play against Juicebox and he gave me a reality check regarding Abel. First off, this matchup can be incredibly frustrating if youre playing a gimmicky Abel. He can abuse ambiguous roll crossups and come out of it using either TT, cr.hp which sets up for his Super/Falling Sky/Reset, or cr.lk to start a combo. You can throw him out of the roll, but that doesnt really help much if hes doing it on your wakeup. He also has all of the same options from his step kick (which is really annoying). Now here is a point that is VERY important to remember- Abel has fast normals. Its annoying. Its very annoying. Learn to block. he has no overhead to speak of ( except the second hit of his rekka, but if he throws out one rekka you can just block low, then high.) so you can crouch block for free, except for the fact that he has TT (I hate that move…a lot). Abel really cant do much on his wakeup outside EX roll or EX Rekka (which has 1 hit of armor ). Crossing him up easily beats all of his wakeup options (including EX falling sky, just learn how to time it right). If he doesnt have any meter, consider him free on wakeup. Guy having U2 stocked really changes this matchup a lot. Abel can no longer do step kick mixups (you can U2 his dash in after step kick for free) or roll shenanigans. Abels attack patterns become much more linear and predictable, so i suggest using U2 in this matchup. Something else that ive noticed in this matchup is if you land a run>overhead, its beneifical to do a backdash or neutral jump. A LOT of Abels (as well as hondas) will try to command grab you after the run > overhead, so ticking with cr.lp/cr.lk isnt an option as youll just get grabbed out of it. be very aware of his U2 when its stocked. dont do anything stupid because its braindead simple to land for him.
im almost positive it punishes his dash in, i landed it every time i tried it against Juicebox…after getting hit by it 3 times he stopped doing f.mk > dash in. i just mashed it out and it worked =)
No it can’t - it’s just that Abel risks a LOT by trying to mix Guy up after a step kick when he has U2 stocked. Abel is +1 after a blocked step kick xx dash, so anything he presses afterwards will be beat out by Guy U2 (normals, throws and rolls all lose) - this forces Abel to do stuff like Step Kick xx dash, Neutral Jump or Step Kick xx dash, block.
Also I thought I’d correct one of your points K1 - Abel has a really good overhead in close st.hk - if the Abel player catches on to you sitting in down back, he’ll set up an ambi-roll after a Tornado Throw or Falling Sky which leaves him at frame advantage, and hit you with the overhead - counter hit overhead HK links into a fat damage step kick combo, and normal (read: non counter hit) overhead HK links into st.mp, or worse, cr.lk xx super.
Against Abel, you want to nullify his options after a step kick with back dash - Guy’s back dash is really good and can get you out of lots of Abel drama. Also, if you can make Abel respect the EX Tatsu option early, it’ll open up a lot of escape avenues later on.
you cannot punish abel’s step kick with U2. It is 1 on block so he can either jump or TT you out of it.
cl.Hk is abel’s overhead and its damn good it links to cr.jab which starts off more step kick.
Abel’s fastest normal is 4 frames which is cl.lp and cl.hp and guy’s fastest is also 4 frames. so when he step kicks you get the hell out of there with back dash or EX tatsu or sometimes Grab and maybe even ex bushin!. you gotta mix your step kick game up too since it is even.
his ambigous rolls can sometimes be defeated with armor U2. if he cr.hp you get ultra if it doesnt cross you get ex tatsu if he grabs you get grabbed and sometimes you run away.
when hes trapped in the corner and you get a knock down, neutral jump hk OS U2 beats all of his options even exTT if you time it right.
any blocked rekka can be punish with U2 even if he follows up(unless he fadc) so try to bait it out with pokes and just guy pressure. he will soon crack and throw an Ex one out.
when he gets you in a block sting, mash back dash to make his f+mk TT attempts whiff.
once in a while mash ex tatsu if he tries to punish your backdash. he will second guess every move he makes. he has no real combos if he tags you with a jab or short (unless its the first jab)
you have to play very very patient agaisnt him and you will not win if you don’t take risks. use your pokes and walk back once in a while during your block strings and fish for ch. frame trap the hell out of him. Guy has better footsies in this match so abuse them all. st.hk st.hp st.mk st.mp works well in this match too.
good to know about the cl.st.hk, didnt know it was an overhead. Juice didnt throw it out once. Also, i wouldve recognized wheel kick as an overhead, but its pretty telegraphed.
Good to know about the U2 being not a guaranteed Ultra punish. thanks for the clarification guys.
also just to throw this out there, Juicebox plays HELLA strange…he doesnt do anything that normal players do…he will hit confirm a 3 hit combo in which he could follow up with something for free, yet he doesnt. he just leaves it at the 3 hit - hit confirm. he doesnt do a lot of roll shenanigans either. Ill see if i can get some matches up with him in the future.
actually i just remembered something that im not sure if it would apply to Guy’s U2…it may…im fairly certain one of his TT’s has throw invincibility…i think its LP…I know ive seen abel TT a gief out of his U1…it was ridiculous…
HeaTBlazn has it mostly right - Abels U2 is pretty much redundant in this match up. A good Guy won’t get hit by it at all as Guy has too many ways out and he doesn’t really have anything -8 or worse for Abel to punish (unless it’s a fucking terribly spaced slide/run slide - but even then, the Abel probably won’t be able to do that on reaction, which makes cr.mp xx CoD a better option) - U1 will be the Ultra you have to deal with the most.
As for the ambi-rolls, it’s pretty hard to mess up from Abels point of view - unless he’s trying to ambi-roll after a forward or back throw, then it’s almost 100% they’re gonna know which side they’ll end up on.