I’ll have to say here. I can do U1 and EX bushin cancels. But I can not do U2, but I will let you know if the person is going for a move that has quite a big startup or safe jump. Do U2 alone and you’ll catch them. But learning the armour cancel is nice for a surprise but really don’t rely on it…
I’ll update the thread sometime this weekend. It’s the first week of classes for me.
Don’t know if it’s already been mentioned but recently found cr.forward beats out Devil Reverse clean if timed right.
Vs Seth
Cr.HK goes under all his Fireballs during its active frames
damn i wish guile was tall…would be awesome if it went under his Sonic booms hehe
vs Gouken:
I’ve played a lot vs him lately, this info might be already common sense or well known, but i’ll post it anyway. (Edited and added a few things, removed others).
Gouken is a zoning character, but he can own you up close too. He is all about mindgames, he has a response to everything you can do, and so do you. The better player (the one who reads his opponent’s mind) will win, but careful because he can punish with half life if you make a big mistake.
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Fireballs. …
Run-slide owns, goes under, you don’t even need ex-run. With run-slide alone you can remove all fireballs from the equation.
d.hk slide works too.
Hozanto, the same as every fireball.
If you get greedy with ex-flip, careful because the invincibility wears out soon and you might get hit, but you can be lucky and fly between fireballs.
If you jump on him, using elbow to bait things or to mixup, if he catch you with an air-fireball he can combo.
He has good anti airs too, so… careful or don’t do it at all.
- His dive kicks are sightly worse than akuma’s.
If you can predict and bunshin flip at the same time he dive kicks (if you predict that after a blockstring he will dive kick you, or so…), you will grab him before he reaches the apex of the jump, or you can izuna, or ex tatsu… but if you are in the ground when he is airbone it’s time to guess or die (good reaction with izuna will work, but not on your wakeup).
His kick beats (usually, depends on who does the move first) all non-ex tatsus and jumpaway (usually), his grab beats blocking, his “air block” beats any single hit, and his sweep might beat backdash, and he has quite a few options to beat your focus.
If you couldn’t anticipate his dive kick move (if you jump at the same time or before him, you will own him), Backdash might be safe… or just take a risk and guess right.
He can dive kick you on your wakeup, or at close range after a juggle reset or canceling a normal poke.
-Once you shut down his fireball game and his dive kick from far away (up close he can still try to dive kick you), when you are in poke range, the fun starts:
He has answer to everything (he has to guess), but almost everything is unsafe, so the Gouken match is a poke-bait-punish game for both of you.
His HK is safe on block (push away and reset a little both of you), and up close his lp, lp, lp, s.lk is a true blockstring. He can cancel a few normals into dive kick (same as you into flip) and into lp palm or hadouken.
His lp palm has a few invulnerable frames he can use to counter-poke. After well spaced lp palm he is in negative frames in front of you, but nothing is guaranteed.
Ex palm can lead to a frametrap, be careful. You won’t see mp palm and hp palm because they are unsafe on block.
His biggest threat is the back throw, but it have longer window for tech, so… be prepared and tech it.
I suggest ultra2, because if you void jump predicting a counter and you guess right, or you focus dash forward a counter, or something like that… that big ultra damage might be crucial.
If he don’t have full ex metter, to jump into a counter don’t hurt so bad, and it might allow you to void jump into a counter when you need it the most.
This is true on his wakeup too, because his counter is godlike vs any crossups (beats each and every crossup), but you can void jump and punish him big time. It pays off to crossup into counters sometimes just to have the mindgame ready for a match ender.
Gouken is a fun match if you shut down his long range zoning. Once you know a little from the matchup, the smarter player will win.
You forgot to add that Run/Slide goes under his fireballs… and Cr. HK, Also Guys projectile invincibility runs out at the peak of his jump but that’s just my experience. and its IZUNA*… gahh… and if you suspect Gouken to do a wake up counter… which only the bad ones will do that against Guy as from my experience. Hozanto his wake up to keep him honest, during run/stop you can do this as well, Run/stop backdash if he did anything especially counter EX hozanto.
:-mw Izuna corrected. Sorry.
Yes, i forgot about the run-slide and the hk slide. Thanks :D. (my post may not be too useful, but i was bored at work… so…)
Forgot to say that gouken’s wakeup is one of he’s weak spots:
Almost any low can dodge his ex-tatsu, and then punish him big time in the way down, so vs meaty low attack with backdash option select his only options are low counter or block (or sometimes ex-demon flip, but depending on the move you may punish that, and he knows it).
Usually the best option for Gouken on wakeup is to block and tech, even more than with other characters, but his ex-demon flip is invincible (it’s his “f**k wakeup i’m going home lol” move, to do when he don’t know what to guess), ex-tatsu is there, and wakeup counter is there too (and it’s godlike against crossups, with the mindgame of to hit or void jump, but without worying about abiguous crossup).
f+mp overhead cancelled into hozanto is great to bait and punish a counter (but you may eat an ex-tatsu, or a backthrow if you timming was wrong)
But, as i say, gouken is all about mindgames and mixups, the smarter player will win, because only the bad ones will “abuse” wakeup counter or abuse some technique, but the good ones will use all his weapons every now and then, playing with all the options.
Str[e]ak,
Might want to add in on the Guile vs Guy matchup…Guy’s (:d::mp: is it?) elbow drop owns all of Guile’s wakeup options (flashkick, cr.hp, df+hk, st.mp, st.mk). Pretty good pressure tool to get in and get the run>stop mixups going.
^^
regarding Gouken:
actually he doesnt have any armor breaking move from his demon flip except throw (which doesnt break armor, just beats it). Gouken is typically a pretty easy matchup due to his fireballs being relatively useless vs Guy. his counters are easily baited as well (do a couple of empty safejumps to see whether or not he throws out counters. usually if they throw out counter on the first couple jump ins, they are going to lean on it to beat jump ins because they have a hard time blocking. Bushin flip rapes all of Goukens fireballs and counters for free as well
regarding Guile:
command elbow beating out all of his wakeup options has been well known for a while. personally i dont suggest run/stop pressure vs Guile very much though
Oh…um…I didn’t see anything written in the “spoiler” thread on it so I thought I’d chime in.
My apologies.
im almost positive i wrote something about it in my Guile write up…either way, no harm no foul =) at least youre contributing =)
Wow, all I was searching for was the Guile write up and ended up reading every single post backwards on the thread. Nice job, btw!
This sounds relatively wrong. Gouken’s palm breaks armor. Gouken probably has one of the better fireballs to use vs Guy because his recovery is faster than most. MP shoulder & flip will be blocked or stuffed, since Gouken will recover by time Guy gets past the fireball. I’m not sure how good run slide under fireballs is, but it doesn’t seem like a practical way to shut down Gouken’s fireballs.
c.HP is Gouken’s go to anti air, and he can use that against elbow drops. Guy’s jump is so floaty I don’t know why any Gouken would try to anti air with counter, especially since Guy can change the arc of his jump. j.HP & c.HP, and maybe even c.mk would always be the anti airs of choice, maybe even ex tatsu vs elbow drops from directly above. Gouken’s biggest struggles are probably the same as vs everyone else, no strong punishes from light attacks.
Not saying it’s a good match for Gouken, but I don’t think it’s strongly in Guy’s favor.
Its practical very practical. As it gets you in for you do an instant run slide the moment you see a fireball from full screen you’ll be safe and in a good position to start a footsie war,if he does a fireball from 3/4 midscreen if you react fast enough you will tag him with Slide EX Run if you react late or Hozanto is an option if you dont want to do slide. Plus some Goukens like to Charge Fireball… that option is absolutely useless against Guy. except on his wake up.
@forte-yes… palm breaks armor… but, he said he has no armor breaking moves from his demon flip.
thanks for gettin my back before i even replied blooddrunk and maestro. appreciate it ! lol
“Guy’s jump is so floaty I don’t know why any Gouken would try to anti air with counter”
um maybe because you should only be jumping in on Gouken on wakeup ? his anti airs are too strong, coupled with his counter, it makes jumping in when hes not on wakeup pointless. Guy shouldnt really be jumping in very much on most of the cast unless theyre on wakeup anyway…I know what im talking about regarding matchups lol.
also, what exactly do you mean by " no strong punishes from light attacks " ? if hes punishing something…it will be a move that has long duration … hell, as long as he can land a cr.mp he can combo into EX palm and from there do either fadc tatsu or hp palm if hes midscreen, if hes in the corner its going to be a pretty nasty combo such as:
cr.mp xx EX Palm > hp fireball > lp fireball > cr.hp (resets) xx demon flip throw (for the mixup)
he can EASILY get his ultra as well if hes using U2, or both ultras when he has the opponent in the corner. Gouken can punish just fine.
Actually FADC Tatsu isn’t even needed he can forward Dash ~ tatsu, timing is tight for it though so if he missed free punish 
oh i was mixing it up with fadc u1. my bad
Lulz@Gouken. Just get in on him and own the poor bastard.
^^ agreed. the one thing i do hate though are mashed counters lol