No one is punishing moves that are -3 on block? Do you know how easy it is to mash out a shoryu? I can do it all the time, my friend can do it all the time. People can do it with jabs. It’s not as hard as you think. Just because people you play don’t do it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. All it requires is someone knowing what they can and can’t do. Very easy once you know what to look for.
I already mentioned shoryus in my post punishing it easily 
Punishing it with jabs is not as easy though since it’s a just frame timing that you can’t really mash out or even plink and get 100%, it’s a just frame punish that’s really easy to miss, and a lot of tekken characters and a few SF chars don’t have any 3f normals to punish it. Foxhunt is -3f and just as unsafe and I see 0 players without shoto dp’s punishing it. Try recording Steve in practice with him doing crHK or overhead randomly and see if you can block and punish them on reaction without using supers or shoto dp’s. -3 means your offense is stopped rather than a punish. If you can record yourself doing that and punishing it 3/5 times I would be damn surprised, it’s hard alone reacting to it and blocking it let a loen punishing. Or if you have AE on PC you can go right now and practice punishing Abel’s close LP with a jab. Your friend must be godlike if he can punish -3 moves with jabs.
At golden_psyco I didn’t check the tech window myself, I’ll check it next time when I go into the lab.
tech window is pretty large sadly
Some tech after I saw Ultradavid’s thread on standing resets I came up with an idea:
Counterhit clMPxx Albion post Foxhunt EX CADC is the only confirmable combo into Albion Combination, and if you find some interesting resets with this with your team that would be great, I’m sure you can get stuff off Albion Combination Tag cancels or post footstomp tag cancels.
On another note, do any of you play this game or Steve anymore? I stopped playing this a while ago as my friends were disinterested and the gameplay itself felt dull to me, the only enjoyment I got of it was messing around in the lab with Steve and posting some of my findings here, and considering I play Sagat/Steve sadly there isn’t much labwork to be done with Sagat, and I don’t know if there is much more to find with Steve besides optimized combos.
Steve is bottomless for combos, believe me…but as far as stuff goes, this game needs to be finished releasing before I do much more of it. I think I’m going to work on Master Class Boxers II and release it the day of DLC characters, involving all 3 boxers. But, outside of that, I think Capcom needs to release the rest of their game before I play it any more seriously…
how do u practice frame traps?
There are several ways to practice frame traps, but first you need to study up on frame data to see whats + enough to be a frame trap , good thing enough that Steve’s good normals are generally very + on block or flicker cancelable and thus + on block and can easily set up frame traps. Frame Data is available here:Steve’s Frame Data - Learn the Art of Boxing
So your frame trap setups will mainly be:
clMP to crMP
CrMP x2
stMP to crMP
f+LP~MP to crMP
f+MP~LP flicker cancel to crMP or crHP
clHP flicker cancel crHP
crHP flicker cancel crMP
crHP or crMP into foxhunt(risky vs shotos and stops your pressure, but you can train your opponent to tech by doing ducking into throw and then throwing this out to get a counterhit into combo)
Do not use crLP in frame traps as it is a true blockstring and does nothing to your pressure.
All of those moves will link on hit into 400+ damage combos, and set up frame traps on block, for example crMP is +9 on hit +5 on block, and has 7f startup, that means you can link them on hit, and if your opponent presses a button he will get counterhit. You want to throw every often if they are blocking all the time to set up those counterhits, and if your opponent is mashing bait their reversal.
To practice frame traps you have several options:
-Practice those links first and have them down, they are extremely easy, and the flicker cancel motion should become second nature. Then:
-Record Steve as the opponent and use a character with a 3f normal, record the frame trap with steve and see if you get counterhit when when you mash your 3f normal, if Steve gets counterhit your frame trap is not tight, if Steve counterhits you it’s tight
-You can get your practice partner to mash during training mode and see if your frame traps work
-Hardest mode Arcade AI tends to mash during frame trap gaps, so you can practice your counterhit hit confirms and frame traps vs the computer
I did not watch this video, but I assume this would be a good tutorial to explain to concept of frame traps:
[media=youtube]IBgfAeAY4TA[/media]
thx so much bro illl def get on that…fortunately i no the frames and flicker cancels
what did you mean by cr.LP being a “true blockstring”? and I understand that cr.LP doesn’t really get you anywhere in terms of damage (unless you have the reactions to do magic series), but sometimes i use it just to apply constant/easy pressure and go for british edge.
bad habit? probably lol Or I throw it out there when im in a block string and i think the opponent is going in for a grab or i think I can get away with hitting him first because their blockstrings aren’t that crisp.
I agree its not the best block string but do you ever use it to get out of a situation since its frame startup is so fast?
What I mean by true blockstring is, the moves I mentioned with Steve, his MPs/Target Combos/Flicker canceled moves are all atleast +5 on block, crLP is 4f startup, so you can input a crLP after crMP that is blocked, and it will be a complete blockstring, your opponent cannot jump, cannot reversal cannot be counterhit and is permanent blockstun.
Frame Traps are basically counterhit setups, and if you lose the gap and make it a true blockstring that’s not a counterhit setup and simply does nothing at all. crLP is pretty useless while frame trapping as it is +1 on block and will end all your pressure since if your opponent has a 3f jab your pressure is over, not to mention crLP confirms deal crappy damage too(crLP chain crMP into launch or crLP chain CrMP into ex Fang). So really crLP does not really apply pressure, and you are better served using his MPs/Target combos instead.
Now about you mashing crLP in blockstrings, yes that is a terrible habbit, you can get away with it in SF4 as frame traps deal no damage and there is a threat of the throw, but in xT some chars Frame traps(steve especially) can lead into half your life gone just by mashing a button. So in xT your best option is generally either mashing a safe tag cancelable reversal/blocking/alpha countering/backdashing during pressure and never pressing buttons.
Here’s a tip:
Lots of characters, especially from the SF side buffer their footsies with MK buffered HK/HP chains, Guile/Bison are examples, but that stuff isn’t free and is heavily minus on block, but you cannot punish it normally because the pushback is too large. BUT if you have super stacked with Steve you can punish every single chain into HP/HK that comes to mind with Super, and I did some testing and it worked, it’s pretty important tech to incorporate and you should be punishing every window you can.
Another reminder is that weaves will always duck under tatsus and you can get a free punish on landing with stMK~LP~HP as they have a lot of recovery on landing. Also vs Ryu Sweep xx donkey kick frame trap you get a guaranteed punish with stmk into LP~HP into some decent damage. Also the safest answer to Ryu’s Zoning game is HK~MP in the right distance, it will beat a forward dash, beat the hadoken if thrown, will lead to a counterhit into 500+ damage combo if he is still charging it, and might catch the backdash if you are close enough, and is completely safe on block, so it negates Ryu’s fireball zoning that gives a lot of characters trouble while being a brainless answer.
I tested Steve’s options vs Jab pressure in this game, I tested it vs Raven and Cammy and Ryu
-You can do lk weave into clHP (full combo on hit or trade, but will not work on Raven as his jab has too much frame advantage and recovers quickly and will counterhit you, but will work vs everyone else in the cast with good jabs I think, clMP works too, but clHP has faster startup and leads to combos on trade too so thats preferrable)
-Backdash, gets you out of there, probably the best and safest option, especially vs Raven who weave doesnt work against because of his jab recovery
-Counter into Tag cancel is viable but risky and can be read.
awesome tips. okay so you’re saying for people who like to chain MK’s into HK/HP (guile) its recommended to block and immediately punish with you’re special? Do you know if this is also viable when people chain cr.MK’s into cr.HK’s? Because I’ve seen Ryu’s do that and its pretty annoying/safe from what I can tell but nothing that’s too annoying since it leads to little damage if hit and no damage if blocked.
that tatsu tip is great, its annoying when they spam it and the only counter is cr.HP. do you punish when they are coming down after the last tatsu kick? or can you shoulder into uppercut when they’re still in the air? I should probably practice just making sure so i can practice correctly. N yea i’ve been HK’ing into MP vs Ryu’s/Ken’s.
and the sway vs jab pressure is good tech but i’ve tried to do it sometimes and usually get hit by the time the 2nd jab comes in, but I hadn’t been throwing cl.HP (you always flicker cancel it right? so you can combo if you hit and be + on block if they block?) so that was probably my problem. noob question but does the sway only go through st.jabs? or can i also do this vs cr.lp’s (like jin’s) i should since its invincible to high’s and mid’s and cr.lp is a mid no? sorry haven’t played in a bit.
i need to practice all these things in training mode, but chemistry’s kinda intense right now -__- n thanks!
-Yeah this applies to the majority of the chains into heavy kicks/heavy punches in this game, you can easily punish them with super and scare your opponent off from buffering.
-DO NOT USE crHP as an anti air, it looks like a good anti air and it should be one BUT it’s slow as hell(7f), trades more than wins clean and IT DEALS FUCKING 30 DAMAGE WTF, the risk reward is so skewed for using crHP as an anti air that you are better off blocking instead of getting beat clean and losing 500 damage. Sway into tatsu works really well and you simply have to punish them on landing(watch out for kens because it hits deeper and you can be hurried in your punish and hell hit you), try it in training.
-Yup they work vs mid pokes too, but generally people don’t spam medium pokes so the risk reward is skewed when using weave into HP vs those in comparison to jabs, and clHP is flicker canceled. Hmm testing it in training mode, sway into clMP is really really good, that +30 into whatever combo you want on counterhit for low counterhits if they are using low pokes.
-High School or University Chemistry exams?
ok awesome need to practice special punishing then.
lol thanks for reconfirming this but yea i hardly use cr.HP as an anti-air, i either sway LK into cl.MP (should i start throwing out cl.HP?) which is usually better cl.MP or cl.HP? I also MK into shoulder/uppercut>combo, use the counter into tag in, or good ol’ block. and okay, on landing then.
sooo does that mean sway cl.MP > sway cl.HP??? and cl.MP is +30 on low counterhit??
and University Summer A, so its condensed 6 weeks chem I and then Summer B im taking chem II so I can’t fuck up >_< its going twice as fast and lab is just time consuming shit. i know what i got myself into i should be fine, but sometimes i get the itch to play and i can’t oh well wahmbulance lol
edit: ok i had a chance to play after my chem test and i’ve answered many of my own questions. basically cl.hp > cl. mp in the sense that cl.hp comes out faster, but takes a lil bit more execution due to being aware of flicker cancelling but its really not a big deal n just takes a lil bit of practice.
yes cl.mp is +30 on crouch counterhit so idk if its better to use that when i sway dodge an attack from the air or if i should use cl.hp even then i’ve been incorporating sway to cl.hp A LOT more to my games now.
and i found that the sways to dodge tatsumaki is nice n all but couldn’t consistently punish it, you were talking about dodging a tatsumaki from the ground not when they use it in the air right? cuz in the air i don’t like to sway cuz they usually cross me up.
I think clHP is better for grounded strings as you get a better combo off hit and it will combo off trades, and clMP is better as anti airiring or frame trapping/punishing stuff on landing as you may get stMP and thats way better than stHP and you can confirmo off it. I’m talking about aerial tatsumakis, grounded tatsumakis you can punish regardless by crouching.I’m talking about Aerial tatsu, sway will always go under them and will recover in time for you to punish the tatsu with clMP or LP~HP off weaving and it’s very good tech vs tatsu mashing shotos(ken cough)
Edit: I’m a complete idiot, I was talking about weaving and not swaying all this time :/. Weaving will go under tatsus and will allow you to punish jab pressure, sorry for using the term wrong. You are right swaying sucks against tatsus.
Goddamit. XD I just read what I wrote. I wrote Sway when I meant weave for the majority of the time. I’ll edit my posts here. I’m talking about stlk and stmk to punish tatsu/jab pressure.
lol no dw bout it i knew what you meant, i read it as “weave” every time, i think i did it too lol
okay so when i dodge an aerial attack with weave lk im going to keep using cl.mp then. and on the ground to close pressure lk into cl.hp xx flicker cancel into combo or trade into combo half life, awesome.
and i thought u meant grounded tatsumakis i was like yea whut? lol thats what i meant that you could punish them by cr.hp. most of the time tho i find my self weaving to avoid aerial tatsumakis but since they cross me up im still facing the other way. i guess i’ll have to practice to stop and punish. you should put up some vids of you fighting matches if possible.
okay so what is your “go to move” when you have somebody knocked down? besides watching out for shoryukens/gief throws what do normally do? i’ve been starting to cl.hp xx flicker. if they block im +w/e and i mostly going into qcf.lk - lp or grab depending on their tendencies. if they don’t block and try to hit it goes back to the advantages of cl.hp, pretty much bye to half of their life.
I’ll try recording some of my Steve tech and posting it online in video form. Do you know of any good PC video recording programs? I dont have the equipment to record from console. You probably dont want to see matches of me :P, I’m not that good and I don’t play the game much anymore even with my friends, I think Ryan Hunter still plays this game with Steve and he is quite good. And yeah for meaty’s I like clMP or clHP, and f+MP~LP vs rolls like you said.
i don’t man i’ve never recorded anything in that fashion in my life. just wanted to see how u play to get some ideas. n its cool playing steve is hard enough i just like to see how you transfer your theory to your actual fights and some things like the weaves to punish aerial tatskumaki’s (haven’t done that yet lol). and how come? they got bored of it? i still haven’t and i love my team (king/steve) especially steve cuz of the ippo factor, idgaf how bad this guy might be in this game, still maining him. are you guys waiting for ALL the characters to start playing again or did it pretty much die? supposedly killian said that they’re going to make some “changes” lol but we’ll see. shame such a pretty game!
i still like to play tho, idk i like the slower pace vs marvel’s chaotic pace. i love marvel to death cuz of its characters and the over the topness, but man every time i play SFxT and i go back to Marvel the execution just ratchets up, for me at least. not fun trying to do ironman’s crispy’s bnb on pad -__- and i’ll check him out, haven’t really heard of Hunter tho…
Steve Fox
• Command Change - Foot Stomp changed from db+LK to b+LK
• Patella Smash - Can be canceled with Albion Combination
• Close MP - Will hit opponents jumping over
• Far MP - 8F added to boost combos (-5F on hit/-9F on block)
• Far HP - 8F added to boost combos (-11F on hit/-16F on block)
- Push back on block when used in boost combo reduced
• cr. MP - 8F added to boost combos (-5F on hit/-9F on block)
• cr. HP - Startup 7F->6F - Hit box enlarged
- Damage during 8~10F changed to 90
- Area from neck up during 3~5F is invincible against air attacks
• cr. HK - Push back on block when used in boost combo reduced
• Foot Stomp - Hurt box reduced
• Straight Chop - Crouching counter hit causes untechable bound damage
• Duck (including EX) - Lower body is projectile invincible
• M/H Flicker Jab - Hit box enlarged
• Hellfire Rush - Reduced recovery after hit animation ends by 15F
Special move meter gain:
• Albion Combination: On hit 20+40+40(100)->20×3(60)
• Fox Hunt: whiff 5->15/On hit 40->30
• Skyscraper: whiff 5->15/On hit 40->30
• Gatling Gun: whiff 5->20/On hit 20×11+50×3(370)5×14(70)
• Swaying: whiff 15+5->15/On hit 40->60
• Sonic Fang: On hit 20+40(60)->25×2(50)
• Hellfire: whiff 15->0/On hit 40->35
I want to say he is bloody amazing now…lol, however i don’t know how good some of his stuff is until i try.
Mainly his cr.hp and patella smash cancel into albion combination
The ones I put in bold are probably his best buffs. Steve might now be one of the few characters in this game that has a normal anti-airs now lol.