Overhead counter-hit ground bounce is techable. I also really want to know Capcom’s rationale for making command dashes like ducking vulnerable to low fireballs.
He’s very solid, even compared to the likes of the better characters. Dudley is one of the best imo, and translates great in this engine. This game took out a lot of the character specific stuff, and the BnB’s are mad simple and nearly impossible to drop. It means you can focus on the opponent more, rather than you’re own mistakes. An invincible DP definitely helps…overall, he’s easy mode. After picking Steve up, going back to Dudley doesn’t even require a fourth of the execution needed by Steve or even SFIV Duds. Also, once you learn how to jab-step with Duds (without triggering the TC jab) you basically have the same pressure some of the best characters do (rolento/cammy/ryu)
It is, but if they cant react fast enough to block it, do you really think they’ll tech it unless they were crouch teching? Usually your counterhit should be off a stored CADC to get that 50/50 between command grab and overhead, it’s a fast enough overhead with no really obvious visual cue(chained into or hop).
I’m actually glad Command dashes dont go through over fireballs, gives some spice to Sagat’s Zoning, otherwise he’d be run all over by some of the Tekken chars, and all he can do is throw out pokes. I am a Sagat main, so I’m biased, but really, other than Sagat’s low shot and Juri’s Low shot(which she needs to store in the first place and is not full screen) what cant you dash through? It adds some fun and diversity to those mus I guess. Also you have to note that Sagat has to commit heavily into the lowshot, he cant CADC it like Ryu’s, But Juri’s low shot is pretty derp and is an extremely strong poke and arguably the strongest zoning tool in the game.
On another note, I’m finding Steve’s JHP and jMP to be great anti airs and pretty good air to air, they both are pretty fast(6f startup on both), and although you are taking a risk, they are better than anything he can do on the ground besides counter and weave(both which are just as risky)
To be honest, it would be broken you could have command dashes go through low fireballs. The mark of good zoner is the ability to force the opponent to jump into a bad situation. If every command dash could go through low fireballs then there is no incentive for people to jump and make zoning fireballs non-threatening. Most zoners have 3 options (taken from that SNK Goro and King post on the front page of SRK):
[LEFT]1. Shoot a weak projectile and watch for the opponent to react.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]The projectile character will try and punish you as you go through their projectile.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Solution:[/LEFT]
[LEFT] Try and close your distance within limits where their anti-air or punishing move can’t hit you. Also, it’s hard for them to react if you dodge their projectile at the last moment, so you can try doing that and see if they whiff their punishment.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]2. Shoot a weak projectile and close into the opponent.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]For the projectile character, this is an effective solution against #1, and it can also be their source of starting an offense.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Solution:[/LEFT]
[LEFT] Block or vertical jump depending on the situation. They’ll be closing their distance to you, so it’s a good thing for you.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]3. Shoot a fierce projectile and hit the opponent trying to close in/make an action.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]For the projectile character, this is a method to hit the opponent on their jump’s startup for example. If you get hit in the air, you’ll get knocked down and find yourself at a disadvantage. [/LEFT]
[LEFT]Solution:[/LEFT]
[LEFT] Try and not get hit in the air. If you see a fierce projectile, roll early and close your distance to them. It’s especially not a problem for Goro since he can EX QCB+K and punish with a throw. He can also punish by doing his ground stomp at the right timing.[/LEFT]
[LEFT] [/LEFT]
[LEFT] [/LEFT]
[LEFT] [/LEFT]
Characters like Sagat would have a terrible matchup with the whole Tekken cast because this immediately makes all those options weak since all it takes is one move to escape all three options on top of the usual jump in. As strong as the tiger uppercut is, once tekken characters are in, he is free to crossups since he is slow and has very few moves to defend against constant crossups.
Awesome, sounds like the two will have decent rushdown synergy :B I cant wait till hes officially release,d whats the dates on it again?
Except Dudley’s Ducking in SF4 went through all fireballs and he didn’t dominate zoning characters due to having subpar footsies and not having a cross-up. Mobility is only one aspect of a good character. I am asking in this case because Steve does not have a lot of the tools that other Tekken characters have.
Good point about Dudley there and I agree that mobility is only one aspect of a good character. I completely forgot about that, but this is a team game and I am assuming that some characters were balanced with specialization in mind. If you give a character too many tools, they may become overpowered. I can’t speak for the other Tekken characters, but as for Steve he is definitely a character meant to deal out damage (not footsies and mixups). I am assuming that the other tools you are referring too, are the characters that have moves with complete fireball invincibility (such as Law’s dragon charge kick). Steve has one as well (EX sonic fang) but you need meter. As for tools that I would give to Steve, I wouldn’t know where to start except maybe an overhead with an untechable ground bounce on counter hit to help with his mixups. Most of the other tekken characters have overheads with untechable ground bounces on a regular hit…
Steve’s patching wishlist:
Untechable d/f MP
change input for foot stomp
first hit of sonic fang should be an overhead (seriously, he’s like punching directly down on them, why is it not an overhead?)
Don’t even need foot stomp when you can do crouch short > close standing fierce. They need to make it such that ducking body is mapped only to toward + strong. With this change, it will be so much easier to execute fierce flicker cancel walk fierce since you don’t have to worry about getting freaking ducking body by accident if you just hold forward after the flicker cancel and time your fierce input correctly. Even better is that you could plink it! Finally, they should make the overhead +5 on hit so that you can link into close standing fierce from it. It seems to me that Capcom tried to make Steve like some kind of version of SF4 Dudley. If they want to do that, they need to give him what makes Dudley (somewhat) scary and give him big damage off high or low.
i spose that too. Although i think they wanted to keep away from dudley a little bit seeing as they knew they would have him in this game too
Then again, Its not like capcom havent put in 2 identical characters beforehand
Searched most of the pages here in vain so I apologize if it has already been covered, but what are Steve’s best options against players who will just crouch guard until the cows come home? Jumps are telegraphed and I can throw them, but it eats time and pays off little as a result. Right now I’m just switching to more of an out-boxing style, allowing them to make the mistake then punish, but it contradicts the usual Steve rushdown. I guess trying to get them to push buttons during the blockstring?
Hit them with the overhead until they do something stupid and try to punish it. Seriously, that’s about it. Steve’s pressure is non-existent since he doesn’t have high-low mixups so your opponent has nothing to fear and won’t press buttons when you are in their face.
grab
sadly i’m serious, overhead is ass
Although landing a grab or 2 will make them want to press buttons to get out, theres your chance to intercept!
does the overhead really not work for you psyco?
Steve’s overhead is terrible. 17 frame startup and -3 (read combo punishable for 40%) on block for only 80 damage and no combo ability afterward. I would recommend overhead over grabbing because grabs are stupid easy to tech in this game when you get used to the wonky timing.
Sadly they both suck, Im just much better at reading what the opponent will do from a grab / grab release, smash bros trains me like that XD
Our best option is to tag in our other character who hopefully has an amazing overhead, kazuya/steve team anyone?
Steve’s overhead is not terrible, infact it’s pretty good startup wise(17f is above average) and has no hopping visual cue or chain, it’s no abel overhead but it is still darn good. Its main problem is that you cannot combo off it unless you EX CADC it(hence why I keep whining on you guys to use flickers to end combos since it gives a free counter store), but that makes it more telegraphed, and with that you can mix up your opponent by simply doing nothing and baiting their reversal, going for the overhead, or going for his command grab or crlk chain crmp xx EX Sonic Fang after training them on your overhead. I don’t know what you are talking about Darkyellow, because no friggin person is punishing moves that are -3 unless they are Justin Wong or are a shoto user who is mashing that dp, and they have to have the reactions to block it first it’s a just frame punish unless you have a reversal DP and that is if your character has a 3f normal, you can’t do that stuff consistently unless you went to training mode and practiced. People arent punishing chains that are -10+, and you expect them to punish something thats -3?
And lol? If your opponent is teching your throws with Steve you are playing him wrong, if anyone is dumb enough to tech vs Steve instead of mashing a reversal or blocking they don’t know the matchup, especially when meatying them on wakeup, Steve’s frame traps are stupid dumb and everything he has is atleast +5 on block(crHP,clHP,british edge,ducking body, crMP,clMP,stmp,stlp) and it all leads to 400 damage MINIMUM. You have to actually throw people with Steve to actually get your frame trap game going, because the risk reward is skewed, 130 damage from a throw vs 400+ damage from taking a hit.
I think that is the main problem with Steve is that his mixups have skewed risk rewards, so you have to train your opponent accordingly to land those counterhit frame traps or command grabs which lead to that 50% life loss, you want to make them press buttons and stand block instead of holding that d/b all day, so throw in those throws and overheads here and there.
Edit: If you analyze Steve’s moveset you can clearly see he was designed to be a pretty killer frame trap character with his huge frame advantage off everything, clMP and foxhunt being +30 on crouching counterhit only is clearly designed to destroy crouch techs especially how late you can delay the foxhunt, albatross MP leading to wall bounce on crouching counterhit etc. You guys are clearly underestimating how important Steve’s throw is to his game, if he doesnt have the throw there is no reason for the opponent to ever stop blocking d/b, which boggles my mind once again about autotech and autoblock, why have those when you have characters like Steve in this game, capcom is fucking clueless.
Actually, You can tech it instantly when you get the counterhit on a crouching opponent. Making it impossible to combo off
The reason we use flicker Is because L.flicker gives us a groundbounce which can be combo’d from if we switch another character in. M/H.flicker hit the opponent far enough away to raw tag our partner in and sends them a long way off (which is great for a keepaway/zoning character) And all forms give us enough time to get a counter store which can be used for whatever we want.
I am well aware of that you can tech it, but honestly the only situation that would come up in is if the opponent is mashing on crouch tech in the first place. No one is going to be hit by a crouching overhead to tech it on reaction, if they could do that they would probably block it in the first place. It’s not a guaranteed combo, but chances are, if someone got hit by an overhead crouching and he wasn’t mashing on crouch tech already it’s highly unlikely that he would tech it. Steve is not really a popular character either, so I highly doubt most people would know that you could tech it either and it’s pretty obscure.
I was one of the people spreading the joys of flicker hard tags and am well aware of how good it is, there is honestly no reason not use flicker to end combos unless you want to hard tag by launcher in juggles in the corner or are unsure whether you would get the kill or not. + Please dont use L flicker to tag cancel unless you did it off counter hit anti airs or overhead or going for the kill, the damage scaling in this game is ass. Flickers also remove one wake up option in this game making it easier to set up meaty’s with Steve which is fantastic. Ideally for the CADC store you’d want to do it off LP flicker though, MP and HP put the opponent so far away for any mixup of sorts after you finished charging and you’d probably use the counter up before you get in close range.
Were talking higher level play though, Im not on said level but they would be aware you can tech it, and its not exactly difficult to tech either, the timing is so lenient in this game
And yes, flickers are good