Yes, there is a small frame duration difference (weaving a more invincible) but more importantly are the tricks employed. You can cancel the end of weaving a animation into a normal, and you can cancel a Lp straight into weaving b (couldn’t find another normal it works with, didn’t test cr.lk…because whatever)
I’ve done a ghetto frame trap a couple times off lp xx weaving b target combo…mostly because I like to end rounds in odd ways sometimes lol.
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[]Capcom shouldn’t just change the input for stomp, they should remove stomp from his moveset. There is no point in using a move that gives you overall (much) less damage than crouching short and messes with throw techs and okizeme.
[]The link off of ducking body > ducking hook is most likely a one frame link
[]Any target combo into Albatross Spin on block is extremely punishable if your opponent knows that they are doing. You are forking over about 400 damage to try to get in. Don’t do it
[]Steve can be played as the starting character, but it heavily depends on who your partner is. Doing meterless combos that put the opponent in the corner for either a hard-tag or tag cancel into a grappler is scary good.
[]There is a big difference between being -3 and being -3 with a move that has pushback. You don’t have to fear doing Foxhunt from ducking unless you really are point blank.
[]I would only use Sway against strings that are not true blockstrings and you know your opponent is going to follow it up. For example, Sway is excellent against Heihachi since it basically eliminates his ability to use his forward jab string since the overhead and low followups can be countered. Nothing is better than getting a big combo because your opponent went on auto-pilot
[*]If you need to AA or a reversal in general just go for the Alpha Counter. It does 20 less damage than Sway, doesn’t fall victim to empty jumps, and has a much lower chance of being blocked. If you do Sway on meaty jump-ins, it will get blocked and you are getting punished hard. You can do Weaving, but then you have to do a 1 frame (2 with plinking) input since there is no huge reversal window for normals.
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since there’s no matchup thread:
What can steve do vs Guile and Hugo? I find it REALLY difficult to fight them without mashing mp + mk as soon as they come in.
Vs Guile you play as you always play vs Guile, move forward and block, sway through his booms, it’s not really that bad of a mu, you just have to be patient and slowly get your way in, and if he starts walking back and throwing booms use ducking LK or stHK, and if he throws a bad boom you can super if you are in range or ducking foxhunt(nothing he can do about it and it’s safe even on block, flashkick is 4f startup). And once you get in you frame trap him like you frame trap any other character, his flashkick on tag cancel on block is a free happy birthday, so it’s extremely risky and you have to bait it out with your frame traps. You really have to understand that vs Guile what kills most players is them getting frustrated and jumping in or walking into his booms and pokes and anti airs, you always have to play patient vs Guile and slowly get your way in, remember that sonic booms deal negligble damage on hit/block(especially in this game with 2000 health on average) and all you have to do is walk forward and get in slowly, never get frustrated and the only time you really have to worry is if there are 30-40 seconds on the clock and he’s running a huge life lead and your back is facing the corner( then you pretty much lost).
I dont have much experience on the Hugo mu so I hope someone else can comment on that.
Also one thing I learned today, Steve clHP on trade counterhit is a free combo, and salt will flow from your opponent because of that, so even if you occasional mistime your clHP meaty you can still combo off counterhit into that stupid damage!
Hugo is a bad matchup for Steve. He has better footsies, can pressure you hard when he gets in with claps and mixups off of claps, and he gets to splash you all day since Steve’s anti-airs and air-to-airs are bad. Splash usually trades or stuffs crouch fierce and even if it loses, Hugo only takes 30 damage and if you start getting cute and do things like sway or weave, you get in trouble with empty jump SPD’s that set Hugo up very nicely. You can’t really use ducking body > ducking hook because lariat has armor and Hugo can actually hold it and see if you did the move before letting it rip. You can jump in on him pretty well until he has meter, but after that it’s trouble because you have to start taking risks on the ground which can lead to easy 350 damage + hard knockdown for him. If you’re playing someone that’s doing auto-pilot clap pressure you can reversal sway in between crouch strong xx clap. You also need to Alpha Counter splashes to push him back since there is very little stopping him from doing splash again, especially in the corner where you can get an ambiguous cross-up that makes you lose 517+ damage.
in other words, Have an zoning character to deal with hugo, either be far enough away for a raw tag to be safe or use meter somehow XD
I went to the lab to test his counter vs divekicks. Considering if you have 1 meter to tag cancel you get 450 damage minimum midscreen, and you can get a lot more with team specific setups and what not, so it’s worth incorporating in certain mus. Here were my results
Xiaoyu- Her divekick is highly telegraphed and it is a free combo punish. The counter is free
Hworang-Same as Xiaoyu
Juri- Counter works just as well here and it’s also telegraphed. Free damage
Cammy- The counter works but it’s iffy, if you do it vs high divekicks you dont get the tag cancel combos since it hits them way up in the air, and you only get the combo off deep divekicks(which if TK’d are non reactable), so the counter is useful in defense vs divekicks, but dont expect a combo everytime
Rufus- Yes. Thanks capcom, counter will get triggered, but rufus can always block in time(4f recovery, brilliant capcom), so Steve’s Defense is pretty much free vs Rufus and the counter is useless
Lili- Extremely awkward, the same rules as cammy apply here, but occasionally sometimes on a less deep divekick her 2nd hit on the divekick will trade with your counter resulting in a trade situation.
Edit: I did some more testing, Lili can block after her EX divekick. And if Lili’s or Cammy’s Divekick hit most superficial and crossup, the counter will whiff.
So in general, Divekick is pretty good vs Xiaoyu/Hworang/Juri and leads to godlike free damage on divekicks he cant do anything about normally, are iffy but work well in defense vs Lili and Cammy, and vs Rufus stay free Steve Fox.
Vs shoto Tatsu’s the counter is useless as it doesnt autocorrect crossups(not even EX counter), leaving you vulnerable to huge punishes. However I find weaving A/B into crMP or clMP or HP to be very useful and it low profiles the tatsus extremely well, so it’s useful incorporating weaving into the Shoto MUs just to avoid that ridiculous pressure.
Edit: And in general please guys do not end your combos in sonic fangs. Seriously dont. Always end them in flickers, sonic fangs adds no damage and is quick recoverable.
Take these as an example:
Corner combo
ClFierce, Flicker Cancel, Crouch Fierce, Ducking into foxhunt LP xx EX sonic fang, ClFierce, Flicker LP, Crouch Fierce, Flicker LP =530 Damage
ClFierce, Flicker Cancel, Crouch Fierce, Ducking into foxhunt LP xx EX sonic fang, ClFierce, Flicker LP, Crouch Fierce, Sonic Fang = 533 Damage
One of them ends in a hard knockdown one does not. The hard knockdown allows you to use EX CADCs to use your overhead and combo off it, sets up better meaty setups. Midscreen flicker gives free tags with HP/MP versions and sets up good meatys with LP and tags depending on screen position. I really see no reason to use sonic fangs. The basic hit confirm of Steve’s BnB mid screen crMPx2, Foxhunt, EX sonic fang, crHP, F+MP~LP, Flicker does 450 damage, I dont know what’s Steves optimal damage fang ender is, but I highly doubt that extra damage is worth the positioning a flicker ender gives, especially if you pair Steve with a zoner.
I think stHK x2 F+MP~LP is a meaty set up after non roll wake up after MP flicker. I’m not sure how to test it though in this game, can anyone help me with that?
also, tagging in characters after the LP flicker can lead to extra combo damage, although only like what, 50 more damage at most XD still, ending in flicker is always the way to go
i think we’ve been over this before but what can i do against nasty block strings? i played a pretty good guile and he had me blocking for days using cr. lp im guessing and st. lp or st. mp? idk, point is i couldn’t really do anything. this is more of a foundation problem vs a steve fox problem cuz with king i couldn’t do much either (i wasn’t trying to press random buttons n if i did i’d press cr. lp)
is back dashing a legit counter to the blockstrings? how about for steve lk and mk? i went thru some of his cr. punches doing those but then i got punished pls some suggestions 
Vs blockstrings in this game vs characters with no overheads, your best option is simply blocking. There is no incentive for you to press buttons, Steve’s buttons are slow(fastest come at 4f) and unreliable and dont have great priority and are not chainable. Block, it does not deal any damage, vs pressing buttons because you are being pressured and getting counterhit for 300-500 damage in this game. What is the worst thing that can happen when you block? You get thrown, haha, you just got thrown for 130-(200 something if commandgrab) damage in a 2000 HP game and that throw leads to 0 guranteed setups at this point in the game’s life, not to mention that throws have ass range and startup, so if you see that guile walking up and throwing you can easily tech on reaction(DO NOT CROUCH TECH WITH STEVE, YOU GET STOMP NO MATTER WHAT,15f low that leads to nothing and is - on block wtf capcom? I am sure this is a cruel joke by capcom to make the worst char in the game defensively even more free on defense :/. Atleast that move in tekken is doable off jump in,command empty jump into low, why is that not in this game, not to mention stomp was one of the fastest lows in tekken and was not blockable on reaction, sigh). Vs overhead characters, learn their mixups and learn their options,learn the strings that lead to overhead, ie(hei’s/kazuyas/ravens), learn which options they have from those strings that lead to combos(not all of their high lows lead to combos, block the one that does lead to combos), learn what stuff they have is interruptable and stuff it. Do not weave or counter either, post weave buttons have 0 invincibility so theyll get stuffed by chains anyways, and both counter and weave get destroyed by any low. Backdashing however is a good option in this game I agree.
There is one concept you should understand, that you are in general in this game at frame disadvantage after blocking Light punches and Light kicks and Medium punches, and if you press buttons after those you will get counterhit, there are exceptions offcourse(Steve’s everything is + on block and if you dont whiff the opponent is frame trapped effectively the entire blockstring). Hard Buttons, Medium kicks, dash cancels, and chains are generally minus on block and you can press buttons after those, so if you want to press buttons, learn the frame data for your opposing character and know when to press them, but in general block more and wait till his chain becomes negative and then press buttons.
TL;DR: Man up, blocking deals no damage, block instead of getting counterhit into dumb damage in this game(you should know this, this is Steve’s only game). Throws mean nothing too and the risk reward is skewed towards holding d/b.
I also found out a good way to end corner juggles into a tag in with Steve. I tried clfierce x2, flicker LP, launcher, but it wouldnt work( do launchers have 5 juggle points??), however clMP, clFierce,lp flicker, launcher works and seems optimal enough. This is extremely important for Steve, considering you cannot hard tag your partner into the corner(it’s punishable because his running distance is larger than the hop he does after MP/HP flickers midscreen), so what you’d do if Steve has lower health or is in a bad mu is simply raw launch(does some decent 100 damage too!) post juggle your partner in the corner, Steve has no other reliable ways to tag his partner in(boost combos nerf his damage horribly, tag in combos with scaling is lol), and these are great non meter requiring ways to tag his partner in.
With steve, you block and wait for them to do something at you. If they try to grab, then throw tech, but accidentally get the foot stomp and cry. If they back away and start zoning, begin to fail at getting in and cry. If they jump at you, try to anti air and cry as it gets beaten out
Man this is one hell of a marmite character XD
You can still tech throws, but you have to do it by hitting a stronger button on top of it. So you throw tech with jab + short + strong. Unfortunately this means you have a higher chance of getting blown up by frame traps since strong is 2 frames slower startup than short. Furthermore, as I have said before if there are strings that you know have gaps in them and that your opponent is always going to follow up like Heihachi’s you can look for the first part and then counter the follow up for potential big damage. Overall learn to block. Blocking is one of the most important skills fighting games and knowing how to block will make you better with every character.
Capcom does not know how to make boxing characters period. They seem to have forgotten after they made Dudley in SF3.
I mirror these guys, I’ve been playing pretty tough around my scene lately with Duds/Steve. Block, and wait for the stupid jump to continue pressure, AA (cr.hp) and get in there. Steve is sort of like Dudley in SFIV in the way that you need to understand every other characters options to be particularly effective with him. Duds however…is easy mode in this game, I’m not even gonna lie XD.
You cant crouch tech with strong, it is impossible. Command normals have higher priority than any normal, so even if you d/b lp,lk,mp the stomp will come out, if you do d/f lp,lk,mp the overhead will come out. So Steve has the worst crouch tech in the game, and considering how risky stand teching is in this game(6f counterhit window) you might as well not tech at all.
There are worse things in this world than eating a throw people, defend against the real damage.
so wait, Youve been using dudley? how is he in terms of goodness? (lol technical terms)
Is that so? I just tech normally, but was hoping that option select would work like in Street Fighter 4. I don’t understand the point of giving a character so many command normals when the important ones are totally useless and mess with very important aspects of a chars game.
Steve actually has less command normals than most tekken characters. Have you ever looked at asuka? jeez XD
so i played a very good jin and again, had me blocking for days. back dash helped but sometimes i’d get hit trying to tap back twice. I think i’d do it too slow cuz i’d be holding d/b and then i’d try to put back back but idk sometimes i’d eat punches, w/e i suck. i ended up doing raw launchers towards the end, but then he adjusted of course.
anyways, the guy that i played kept back dashing out of knockdown situations, it was really irking me because it would ruin my mix up game when i finally had him down (literally). i found it to be very viable in avoiding attacks, especially lows, he’d just backdash as soon as he got up. is this what ppl at higher lvls do on wake up?
Backdashes are not fully invulnerable, you are only invincible at the start of the backdash, so you can be hit if you backdash out blockstrings(but not for too much), and if you do backdashes too slowly you can get hit too, so generally when pressured just block.Although Steve’s backdash is arguably the 2nd best in the game in combination with his super, 21 frames total, only 3 grounded frames(Chun is 22f 4 grounded!), 2nd only to Kazuya, and with his super you can backdash and punish a few specials/heavy moves on recovery. It’s a very good option on wakeup for Steve, definetly his best option vs grounded pressure.
If your opponent is backdashing all the time on wakeup then punish that habbit, go for Skyscraper or Albion Combination, it’s risky, but if thats all he is doing on wakeup, then punish him for it. Unfortunately there isnt much of option selects you can do vs wake up backdash in this game, you can OS off meaty jumpins, but not off chains. So you have to make the read.
On another note, I found that for some weird reason, d/b lk(stomp), causes a airborne reset on the opponent after a counterhit overhead, I couldn’t replicate the airborne reset in any other juggle, and it seems kind of impractical because throw reset + overhead + stomp will do 290 vs Overhead into crHP xx LP flicker which does 270. If it did it in all juggles it would have some use, but I guess it’s only use is to mess with the opponents head in an awkward situation. You can probably after showing them the throw once you can go for the frame trap meaty clMP/clHP on the next setup. If stomp actually did an airborne reset in every juggle itll have some use, but at it’s current use, there is no use for it over going for MP/HP flickers which do more damage and give the same hard knockdown.
Edit: Hmm, it works off Albion combination too, but using it in that situation is useless, considering you get a full combo off Albion Combination.