It’s a bad matchup, but it’s not unwinnable. If Gief ever gets a command grab near the corner it’s over, but Boxer can keep him out reasonably well in the first place.
Bison=Dictator not Boxer.
Gief-Boxer? Not as familiar with this match up, but I imagine it to be fairly even, maybe slight advantage to Gief.
Bah, stupid name switch. I think Gief v Boxer is probably like 7-3 or 8-2 or something.
I also don’t think Gief v Dictator is 10-0. Dic can keep Gief out ok with some of his pokes and can punish punch lariats on reaction with slide, and he’s pretty mobile so he can stay out of the corner a reasonable percentage of the time. It’s basically the ST matchup, which is evenish or slightly in Gief’s favor, except a bit more lopsided for Gief because Gief is a bit better because of the better lariats and Dictator is a bit worse because he doesn’t have super to escape the corner and has some minor move differences.
What about Sagat vs. Ryu? Who has the edge there and by how much? What ratio would you give it?
UltraDavid:
> Bah, stupid name switch. I think Gief v Boxer is probably like 7-3 or 8-2 or something.
Not going to argue cause I’m not familiar with the matchup. I can see Boxer keeping Gief out with s.HP, c.HP and c.HK though, but Lariets will be hell on him, and of course the corner is death.
> I also don’t think Gief v Dictator is 10-0. Dic can keep Gief out ok with some of his pokes and can punish punch lariats on reaction with slide, and he’s pretty mobile so he can stay out of the corner a reasonable percentage of the time. It’s basically the ST matchup, which is evenish or slightly in Gief’s favor, except a bit more lopsided for Gief because Gief is a bit better because of the better lariats and Dictator is a bit worse because he doesn’t have super to escape the corner and has some minor move differences.
Nope. There are no pokes that Dic has that can keep Gief out reliably. None. The Gief flow chart to this match is as follows:
- Gief walks forward with hands hovering over PPP. If Bison does anything, lariat. Otherwise, keep walking forward.
- Once within splash range, splash.
- ONce within range, s.LK -> SPD.
At no point does Bison have any real answer to any of this. PPP Lariet will hit every his ground special moves (exception: 2nd hit of Scissors from long range, which will give you, what, 5% damage at the most?) any jump in attempts, and all of his standing kicks, which lost range from CE. Headstomp from far can counter it, but the damage is so low than it won’t stomp Gief from proceeding, plus Gief can simply block it otherwise. Slide will hit it, but only from very far, and only if Gief Lariats first, which doesn’t happen because he only Lariats to counter something you did. If Bison does nothing, Gief keeps walking forward until he gets to splash range. Splash beats all of his ground attacks and most of his jumping attacks (you might get lucky with an early jump up HK, but good luck performing that enough times to win). A couple of blocked splashes will push Bison to the corner, and then he’s dead. If he doesn’t block, he dies even faster.
There are ways to inflict damage on Gief (e.g. KKK lariat = s.HK), and Bison can flop around and jump and headstomp away, but all he does is delay the inevitable. Gief only needs to touch Bison 3-4 times to kill him, while Gief has to make about 20 huge glaring mistakes for Bison to win. It’s simply not possible unless you’re playing an infant.
The match up is much better in ST because Bison’s kicks have their CE range back, he has actual combos that he can land, Scissors Kick knocks down, and head stomp inflicts block damage. Plus, he actually has a reversal in the form of the super, even if he only gets to use it once per round. Gief still has the advantage though.
Tessai:
Personally, I would put Sagat v. Ryu as even.
You’re making it sound too simple. Gief can’t react to Dic’s pokes, so he has to guess a lariat: kick lariat if he’s expecting crouching roundhouse (or closer in, crouching forward), punch lariat if he’s expecting standing roundhouse. Whereas, Dictator can react to Gief’s lariats with slide against punch lariat, standing roundhouse against kick lariat, and headstomp or scissors against both if far enough away. The payoff is higher for Gief for landing a lariat than it is for Dictator landing a counterpoke, but still, this part of the match isn’t that far away from even. And if for example Gief hits Dictator’s far standing roundhouse or whatever with a punch lariat, that knocks Dic towards the corner, but Gief isn’t yet close enough to get a tick into spd most of the time. If Gief corners Bison, obviously it’s good game, but there’s a real game to be had in Bison staying out of the corner. 8-2ish? Maybe a bit less.
Yeah, from what little I’ve played of Gief-Boxer (from both ends) UltraDavid sounds right. Rog’s lack of a reversal kills him here.
Yeah, Boxer can use crouching roundhouse and (I think) forward to beat punch lariats, crouching fierce to beat kick lariats, standing jab, crouching fierce, and standing strong as antiairs, kick rush to beat kick lariats and as an antiair, and crouching roundhouse as an antiair. Probably more like 7-3 in my experience, now that I think about it.
UltraDavid:
> You’re making it sound too simple. Gief can’t react to Dic’s pokes,
That’s because it is simple. And why can’t Gief react to Dics pokes with Lariat? What poke does Dic have that Gief has to fear? If Gief guesses right, he gets knockdown and Bison is that much closer to death. If Gief guess wrong, he eats… 5-8% damage? Scissors Kick is his best bet, but the spacing must be precise, and he won’t get sufficient time to charge safely if Gief is constantly walking forward, pushing back toward the corner, and head stomp is a nonfactor in this fight since it’ll get beaten up close by lariat on the way up and any range it could actually hit Gief, Gief can simply block with no penalty.
[snip]
> The payoff is higher for Gief for landing a lariat than it is for Dictator landing a counterpoke, but still, this part of the match isn’t that far away from even.
I beg to differ. As I said, Bison can damage Gief, but he has zero way of doing this reliably, and certainly not enough to win a whole round. Gief would have to fuck up 12-20 times per round for Bison to win, while Bison only has to get grazed a couple times, and even blocking certain things (any splash) will get him killed.
> And if for example Gief hits Dictator’s far standing roundhouse or whatever with a punch lariat, that knocks Dic towards the corner, but Gief isn’t yet close enough to get a tick into spd most of the time.
Doesn’t matter. Gief just keeps walking forward, gets to splash range, then does splash x N until he’s close enough to tick to SPD. Any knockdown for Bison is pretty much death; knockdown in corner is just faster death.
> If Gief corners Bison, obviously it’s good game, but there’s a real game to be had in Bison staying out of the corner. 8-2ish? Maybe a bit less
10-0. As I said, Bison flopping around to stay out of the corner is all well and good, but he has no way of reliably damaging Gief while doing that or otherwise and moving around only delays the inevitable.
I’m just now focussing more on combos as I think that is the weakest part of my game right now. I use Sagat and Ryu and between the two of them I can only do Ryu’s j.fp, s.fp, fireball combo. I’ve landed Sagat’s j.rh, tiger knee before but I’m not sure it was a real combo and that the cpu didn’t just eat two attacks close together.
Here are my questions: When doing Sagat’s j.rh, s.short, TU combo, do I do the TU after the first or second hit on the s.short? (or can the second hit even be cancelled?)
I’ve been reading a bit about cps1 chains and what I’ve been reading says you have to hit two buttons at once when transitioning from kicks to punches, is that correct? So, for example, Ryu could do c.s, c.s, s.s+fp, fireball?
I’d still like to hear Ryu combos but I think I’m going to switch from using Sagat and Ryu to using Sagat and Guile. I like Ryu but Guile is also well rounded and seems more interesting.
Only the knee on Sagat’s standing short can be cancelled.
Thanks.
i can argue this point. blanka beats gief with just 1 button. its a really sad match. at best its 9.5 - 0.5.
Match feels like 8-2 to me. Doesn’t feel worse than vs Honda or Dhalsim.
Watson, back in the hey day of HF, was Sagat a competitive character at the highest level of play? Obviously nobody was beating Tomo much with ANY character, but outside of that…?
In regards Sagat’s combos, his cr.short also combos into Tiger Uppers, Knee, and Tiger shot. I find this easier than st.short. Also, cr.short hits low so you can combo from an empty jump mix up. Sometimes I’ll throw it out after a close whiffed tiger knee instead of whiffed tiger knee > throw.
With Ryu’s CPS1 chain, it’s core to his gameplay in HF…
crossup j.roundhouse, cr.short, st.fierce xx fireball
The only tricky thing in the execution is the st.fierce which is triggered by hitting short+fierce simultaneously.
You can use it as an option to mix people up on a knockdown… jump in as if to make them stand to block your j.rh, but just land without hitting rh and go straight into cr.short (then rest of combo) which will hit if your opponent is still standing and didn’t hit you on wakeup. This should get a dizzy.
And, the number one reason to use cr.:lk: in combos…
It reaches further! 
Yeah, if I hadn’t been in a rush, I would’ve said just use cr.:lk:. His combo options from the standing knee frame only get better when you head down the timeline into Super and ST (where he can interrupt the knee on any of his kicks. :hk: is obviously my choice.).
Yeah…you can do the CPS1 chain thing with Ryu on crossup…but…if you have the timing for it…you could do this…
xup j.:hk:, cr.:mp:, cl.:hp: xx :hp: Hadouken!
Talk about damage and dizzy! Oh wait…there’s a name for this type of combo. Does over 50% damage (in this case…it does more than 50% easily!). Dizzies. Umm…TOUCH OF DEATH!!!
Because it’s a crouching to standing link, however, your timing with releasing down and pressing fierce, both actions done right when the crouching strong punch ends, is critical. Land this combo and the round is yours with ease. Of course, if you see that the cr.:mp: is being blocked, it’s wonderful recovery time allows it to be an excellent tick, as well.
Thanks Coldsnap.
Holy crap, it’s Onaje. o.o