isn’t baiting the fireball part of it too? you sonic boom wait if he HKs you crouching fierce, if he fireball cancels you backfist, if he jumps you anti air, if he does nothing you throw another one?
lol@tomo video. there is also a big story behind this too. lets just say his fucking so-called “manager” screwed me out of doing this. it was filmed in san diego for the most part. anyways, have fun to those trying to play this game. imo, this is the best version of SF ever made or played.
mike
In CE imo Ryu vs Guile is more of a 5/5 battle, but in Hyper where Ryu has a better fireball, and a more priority hurricane kick, I would agree with dogberry that Ryu now has an advantage. Guile has a tough time getting in on Ryu when it comes to a well played fireball game, and the hurricane kick is very effective against Guile, because within the range of where Guile can shoot his sonicboom and backfist, he’s prone to eating a hurricane kick, and even Guile can’t recover in time before he gets hit. Imo, even trying to shoot a sonicboom slightly outside of sweep range is dangerous because Ryu can always stuff it with a hurricane kick, and the sure way of the hurricane not stuffing Guile is if, Ryu does the hurricane kick too late, allowing Guile to recover in time. This can add for some guessing games in Ryu’s favor, imo, jumping in on your opponent is usually never a good idea, especially if they know how to space very well(For both Ryu and Guile, not just either one). Most Guile’s I play rarely jump forward, but they walk towards me while jumping straight up to avoid fb’s then they will try to stuff me in close if I try to shoot a fb with a c.mk if I’m within range.
This match I feel is within Ryu’s favor, because Guile has to work more harder, while the Ryu if they know how to space well with his fb will be dishing out a relentless amount of chip damage, because Guile’s sb game isn’t quite as effective up against Ryu when compared to the other characters, the match imo will come down to who spaces better then the other, but Ryu has the advantage because he can beat Guile out in the fb department, and also has an answer to stuffing his sonicboom’s.
> but in Hyper where Ryu has a better fireball, and a more priority hurricane kick,
I thought Ryu was exactly the same in HF as in CE. Just that, with HF’s higher speed, it’s now a lot harder to react when Ryu throws Fbs in your face.
And yeah, Ryu has the advantage in this fight. Guile simply cant keep up with a non-stop FB barrage. Even if Guile never gets hit, he loses to chip damage because he just can’t advance without blocking something, and Ryu never has to let himself get hit by anything.
A more interesting fight IMO is Ken vs. Guile. I say that fight is 5-5. Ken has one weapon in that fight that Ryu doesn’t: Ken’s j.HP will stuff everyone of Guile’s anti-air normals save perhaps for Guile’s c.s.MP (which he should never be able to land cause Ken should never jump from that range). Aside from that, spacing Ken + a ton load of Fbs is just enough to keep Guile at bay. He doesn’t have as “easy” a time keeping Guile out as Ryu does, but he can do it.
I’m a sucker for punishment. I only play Bison in HF.
Even walk forward backfist?
Agreed. It just doesn’t get any better than HF. Maybe ST and 3S are technically better games (debatable), but to me HF represents the absolute pinnacle of SF2-mania, a time when competition was at an all-time high. I also prefer a much simpler game, a game without supers/air blocking/teching/parrying/what-have-you.
Here’s another question for the experts out there; with all the discussion about relatively close 5-5 or 6-4 HF matchups (Ryu vs. Guile), are there any HF matchups where even the most skilled player has little or no chance of winning?
It depends by what you mean, are you signifying using a sonic boom and then walking forward into backfist, or just simply walking forward and backfisting? If Guile tried to just walk forward and backfist, the hurricane kick will beat out Guile’s backfist’s almost all the time(invincible frame start up and priority), the worse would be a trade off, which Ryu would do more damage then recieving damage anyhow.
The only way I can really see the backfist connecting is if Ryu used a hadouken within close range to counter the sonicboom, this would allow Guile to backfist Ryu before he can recover.
A bad matchup if I recall in Hyper was Ryu vs E. Honda (memory is alittle hazy, I haven’t played a really good E. Honda since like…95 lol) E. Honda’s headbutt’s are shutdown almost all the time by Ryu because of fb’s. All you needed to do was have good spacing with your hadouken game, c.fk stuff’s many of his jump in’s if he tries to jump over your fireballs. If he’s close, hurricane kick can get you to safety, E. Honda’s only chance would be to get in close on a Ryu, which was difficult to do.
Another bad match up, and this one is against Ryu imo, is going up against Balrog in Hyper. I swear, the damn charge turn punch with it’s invincibility, it made trying to space with fireballs almost impossible to do at times because Balrog would just fly right through your hadouken and smack you in the face, and he could walk forward while charging this up, which is why it was a very powerful tool up against Hyper Ryu, I would have to resort to other means like baiting Balrog into a turnpunch where I can stuff it with a lp shoryuken. I found this to be one of my most difficult matches in Hyper.
Ok, here is part 6 (of 7) of the
’GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT’:
GuangZhou HF3 Pg3Grp A,B,C & D
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9N4W6DUQ
That would be fantastic eidrian. I never imagined such an amazing start to this thread. Tourney vids, the Tomo tape now the Pony Canyon tape, Truly great work to everyone involved. Thnks so much for your contribuions.
A pivilige to have you take part Mike. Clearly very interested to hear ‘anything’ you have to say on the subject of HF, esp tactics and history.
That would be it.
You sonic boom:
if Ryu HKs you crouching fierce
if Ryu cancels with fb you backfist
if Ryu jumps forward you anti air
if Ryu blocks (best option) you get spaced out and keep throwing SBs and FBs at each other til you get bored and one of you makes a mistake.
Yeah the match gets really interesting here, Guile has an option for every situation if he can get the initiative behind a Boom. Just some other specialised offensive options not mentioned yet, if Ryu blocks the Boom:
1.) Walk in behind it and throw
2.) Walk in behind it, when Ryu blocks follow it with a s.LK, then take half a step back and press HK. Ryu will generaly try to sweep you, and you will cleanly counter with the upsidedown kick.
3.) Follow behind the Boom and jump at Ryu. Ryu will generaly block high as he knows you can air attack simutaneously. Dont throw an air attack, land and go straight into c.HK sweep.
*then you have the alternate options for each:
1a.) Walk in behind the boom, then quickly crouch and hit c.HK sweep.
2a.) Walk in behind it, when Ryu blocks follow it with a s.LK straight into a throw.
3a.) Follow behind the Boom and jump at Ryu, throw a simutaneous air attack (generaly MK) that will hit Ryu’s low block.
3b.) Follow behind the Boom then when you get near, jump straight up. At the height of the jump hit HP. If Ryu tries to HK you will beat him clean.
So many options for Guile when he has the initative (which, unlike say Sagat against Ryu, is as much psychological as it is timing and positional advantage and thats what makes this match so good), the hard thing for Guile, is to engineer the initiative against Ryu’s FB game.
honestly, at high level, this match should be 5:5 at worst. But like most things, it’s largely skill dependent and a good ryu vs. a good guile can look like ryu has the upper hand.
I forgot to mention Ryu can go for the uppercut through the sonic boom. In which case Guile still gets his walk forward mixup options.
I can’t recall but doesn’t guile have a move forward option (b+MK or b+LK aka knee) that keeps his charge? The only problem with this option is that if Ryu is good he can throw a fireball forcing Guile to block, or gain the fireball initiative again.
The biggest thing for guile in this match is learning to compete in the FB wars. Guile players need to learn the buffer technique for sonic booms (hold b f b +P allowing Guile to throw booms based on recovery instead of charge timing).
oh and props on the big trouble in little china shot. I love that movie.
Nice thread Crayfish, off topic goodge street casino has refitted new buttons and sticks for ALL machines.
when you gonna do another session? give me some rough dates. if you do not know i am off for about 4 days week after next so i can do some AE and Turbo games and hopefuly bring Pulpasis plus another friend to my flat.
peace out!
Yeah if you stuff the cyclone kick a couple of times and start to pressue Ryu a little, you generaly see more and more of this. Depending on cicumstances, you can either punnish with c.MK, throw or backfist etc…, but the best Guiles can Backdrop whiffed LP Dragons, such an awsome tactic. You can even Backdrop the cyclone kick but I think thats too risky to bother using.
Yeah its the b+MK (b+LK in ST), you dont really get to use this much against Ryu coss of the threat of the Cyclone kick, but against Sagat its a main part of your game coss you are safer behnd the Boom and its the way you use to punish nulified close low Tigers while holding/gainng ground and mantaining charge. Great move.
Yes deffo, here is Apoc’s guide to ‘Delayed Charging’:
“Charge before you release the special. This is a relatively unknown charging technique. Here is a new motion for your charge attack: Charge back(or back and down), tap the stick forward, then tap it back, then press the button that corresponds with the special you are using and the speed you want it to be. This basically lets you charge ahead of time and lets you keep charges even when your opponent thinks that you can?t be charged. Ever do a sonic boom and then flashkicked your opponent when he jumped over? This is how you do it. You can?t do another sonic boom, sadly, because only one can be on the screen at once. But the whole concept is simple: precharge. This is crucial in using your specials to maintain position, range, pressure and even a mindgame here and there as well as making for some really cool combos involving 2 or 3 charge specials or incredibly difficult to time supercancels. This also helps balance out your overall game with the command character because you have your moves almost at will, when you need them. Couple this with the real charge motion and you?ll see how fast you can fire off to charge specials in a row or connect charge specials into charge supers in combos. In short, this helps to free you up in regards to special usage”
Yes abso classic:)
June and early July is tricky for me m8, just movng atm + lots of other stuff. I’ll deffo get bak to you on this soon when I know where I am a little better. And I gotta finaly scan that SSF bok ;). Keep safe m8.
Blank vs. Vega
Zangief vs. M.Bison
Those two are 10-0 fights IMO.
Ryu vs. M.Bison and Sagat vs. M.Bison are pretty bad too.
This is why I feel that Guile will never have a 5-5 battle up against Ryu in Hyper. A 6-4 is not even that big of an advantage at all if you really think about it, the Guile player still has to work more harder than the Ryu player when these two are confronting one another, at high lvls, the matches do become more close, but that’s how it is with almost all fighting games at the highest lvls of play. However it still doesn’t change that Ryu has a slight advantage over Guile in Hyper, Guile has to be cautious with his sb game, Guile must get in close to deal damage otherwise he’ll slowly get chipped damage, this plays within Ryu’s favor, I’m not saying Ryu owns Guile, but it does lean slightly towards in Ryu’s favor.
Oh yes Ultima, lol, I completely forgot about the Blanka vs. Vega match, lol, the good times.
Highest level play is the only way to do tiers. Yun would be bottom tier if you ranked him in a list where the skill level was below SA3 execution, or Urien without charge partitioning and unblockables, or Makoto without dizzy combo off SA2, or Dudley without OH links to corkscrew blow. You can’t tier guile vs. ryu if guile doesn’t know how to buffer SB properly and both theoretical players are equal at max skill level.
I also disagree with you on the second part. Matches only become even at highest level play when there are too many effective defensive options for each character.
Let’s look at examples:
GG: FD, burst, IB, tech etc.
SC2: Step, GI and G2, jump
VF4etc: DTB-EG (or whatever the acronym is for double throw break evade guard option select)
These games at max skill level are actually pretty close to even. Lopsided matches like Dizzy vs. Potemkin aside.
SF2 is unique in that there are so many matches that even at highest level play are so lopsided that you can’t got a chance in hell to win. Let’s look at Blanka vs. Balrog.
No way in hell is an expert Blanka got a single chance against a good Balrog. Balrog counters everything Blanka has.
More examples:
Honda vs. Sagat.
This match is so lopsided if Honda knows what he’s doing. Sagat has to be super risky in order to do anything. Honda should win clean 100% if he’s got enough reaction to see low tigers coming from half screen.
Anyways, back onto topic. Does anyone have strats for Blanka vs. Sagat?
I get creamed in this matchup. I’m always jumping tigers and poorly analyzing my spacing such that I land on tiger uppers all the time. Do I have a move that trades with tiger upper?
How am I supposed to play this match up?
I worded it wrong, so it’s my fault, maybe I should’ve been more clear when I stated this so that you don’t get the wrong idea. When I stated “More Equal at the Highest Lvl of Play” I’m not talking about “lopsided matches” like T4Jin vs. T4Kuma, or Shiek vs. Bowser, or MSP vs. Team Shoto(yes rather extreme on this one, and most likely won’t ever happen, but it’s just to get my point across). I stated this comment towards the Ryu vs. Guile matchup at the highest lvl of play, it does “get” more equal at the highest lvl of play, however it still doesn’t change the mere fact that the Guile player has to work far more than the Ryu player in order to achieve the win.
Guile can’t keep a solid zoning/spacing with his sb’s without resorting to jumping up, jumping in, or taking the block, or you missed timed your jump and you got hit, because of Ryu’s fb game, and this is already a problem because sb is one of Guile’s key gem’s to his tactics, sure, it’s not completely nullified but it’s not good either, and Guile will be forced to come in on Ryu or suffer a barrage of hadoukens, which goes into Ryu’s favor. Given in comparison it’s not as bad when Guile confronts someone like Vega (whom imo I feel has a fairly big advantage when pitted up against Guile), but Ryu can still make it difficult for Guile. So I will have to disagree with you, this matchup is not a 5-5 matchup, I agree with the 6-4 matchup in favor of Ryu. It leans towards Ryu, because as I stated earlier, Guile has to work more than Ryu ftw.
If I’m not mistaken and correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Chunli technically supposed to have a slight advantage over Ken in 3S? Yet, Ken’s can do fairly well up against Chunli’s at the highest lvl of play, but it still doesn’t change that Ken has to work more then Chunli to achieve the win. This is how I see the Ryu vs. Guile battle in Hyper, slightly in Ryu’s favor, but not a lopsided guaranteed victory.
Also, funny how you should mentioned SC2, when even at the highest lvl of play, someone like Misturugi can spank Yunsung pretty badly.
Please ‘do not’ take this thread in the engine coparison direction, however well inended the illustration is. If there is something that virtualy every thread on this board teaches its that this invariably leads to pointless arguments. Lets talk Hyper Fighting, if you think someones Hyper Fighting strat is wrong, dissprove it with a better Hyperfighting strat. The same goes for “Hyper Fighting is much better than X game, for X reasons” type comments, these only ever serve a negative purpose too.
*Soz for my tone, but these type of well meaning, seemingly benign comments and anlysis are the most malignant trend on the boards.
Yes high level is the only way to do tiers, and level bears no relationship to balance. Strats(even a single tactic) or Skill(execution, timing etc…) can either serve to balance or unbalance a matchup at any level.
Despite all this (too much) talk of lopsided matches in HF, on the whole its an extremely balanced game, as the wildly varying rankings and our continued enthusiasm for the game are testimony to. Again, pls lets not retread this partcular corpse laden path …again.
Ok onto content:
Sagat vs Honda is pretty even imo, even that (still baffling) ultra pro Honda T.Akiba ranking has it 6-4 to Honda, all the others have Sagat winning. Honda can go over low Tigers, but Sagat has the high Tiger which still beats it. You can crounch under the high ones and gain ground, but then U’ve lost your charge and he can low Tiger again. Its all give and take (lke all the best matchups :). Its Sagat’s ability to mix the heights and speeds that makes the choice of action just as risky for Honda as it does for Sagat. Plus he can reset many stuations by just spamming jump back HK.
Jump straight up, HK on the way down can beat TU clean, or make it whiff. And j.MP can beat it clean once its in the air. Keep up the normal ground pressure, trade c.HP/ c.HK with low Tigers, crouch under high Tigers then (if your close enough)whack his outstrched hands with s.MP. Blanka has an advantage that most charas dont against Sagat, he can dizzy hm with a full range jumpin against a low Tiger. The combo s simple j.HK, c.HP. Massive range.
How I play Honda vs. Sagat.
start of match. Headbutt. buffer back. This depends on the player. If the player blocks you’ve already won. If he blocks and punishes, keep turtling and bait a mistake. If he uppercuts, you might lose but turtle anyway, if you hit him, he has very little chance of winning.
After that hold d/b and just wait. You duck high tigers, so you only need to worry about low ones. As long as you’re ahead on life his only option is to jump on you (risky).
If you’re far away a good sagat will tiger upper your fierce headbutt, so you should only fierce headbutt from about half screen. Just watch for a low tiger -> headbutt -> sit on your charge repeat.
From max range you jab headbutt instead. Then sit on your charge.
Good sagats won’t be playing tiger games with you. Instead they’ll be trying to jump in on you and throw you.
At the right range, headbutt will work for anti air, otherwise you can try standing close fierce, but I don’t bother against sagat’s j.HK. I block and try to reverse a tick with squeeze throw -> HHP buffer charge and go back to turtling.
Perhaps I haven’t played against any really good Sagat’s but I can’t see sagat having much of a chance in this match.
Very intrresting points. From what you say, the match seems dependant on who can get ahead first (like a few other Honda matchups).
Yes good Sagats will jump at you and try to throw, but they will always play firebal games too. The Tiger Shot grid is such a flexible tool it wll always come into play, even against Dhalsim. Its just so customizable and fast, your always going to at least block some.
You can’t headbut at the start of every round obv, which gives Sagat the chance to take the iniative and since he can jump back safely at any time, I would think that he has an easier time transcending that half screen range (to where he can low Tiger and Uppercut on reaction) than Honda has maintaining it with a charge (where he can headbut low Tiger on reaction).
btw, all of the 2nd paragraph was concerning Blanka vs Sagat. Tho the tactic of ducking under high Tiger then whacking his outstreched arms with s.MP works for Honda too. J.HK should also be mentioned for Honda while were at it, that always comes into the match once Sagat starts throwing the high Tigers, that has really nice range and power for going over the top.