Let’s just stop talking about AE all together :looney:. Anyway, I agree (for the most part) with the tier list above. Except I would move Honda to #4, alongside 'Gief.
What makes Dhalsim not so great in HF is his low priority. In HF, Guile can just keep throwing out s. shorts and it'll stop Sim's limbs. That doesn't work as well in CE.Yeah, Sim’s priority in HF is hella bad. He gets hit or trades with just about everything :sad: He also doesn’t do much damage and he seems to get dizzy at the drop of a hat. The dizzy thing may just be because he gets hit/trades a lot though 
He sucks, but I still really like playing with him in HF. It’s an uphill battle against half the cast. But, I think that’s part of the fun though to me. When you win with him, you know you’ve earned it!
Hey Zoo…Did you really say Alex Valle is over rated?
More power to you, in ST and AE i have a hardtime vs sim when using sagat but in HF sagat has the advantage vs sim.
Of course n more importantly i totally meant it cuz it’s not like he ever t8’ed at EVO or anything:looney:
Orochi, please read my post again, I clearly, clearly have Ryu as #1 in HF. Since where did I ever list HF. Guile>HF. Ryu…where?
What misconception, I believe you aren’t reading me correctly. I said that CE. Sagat/Guile from the Arcade is different from the CE. Sagat/Guile from AE. So trying to compare HF. Sagat/Guile from HF in XBL to their CE versions from AE is a poor choice, considering they are different from their CE arcade versions.
AE CE. Guile or should I say, most of the CE characters in AE can land dizzies much more quickly unlike his CE arcade which cannot do the samething, not to mention, they do more retarded damage then their CE arcade counterparts as well. So Comparing AE characters to their HF counterparts from XBL is not a good comparison because they aren’t even compatible with their CE arcade versions within the first place.
Hopefully you get where I’m coming from now.
Anyways with that notion aside and moving away from AE completely now, your tier listing is what you make of it, and, I don’t remember the majority agreeing with your tiers in this thread. However I will state that I don’t have the majority who agree with my tier listing either. Lastly, I’d rather take the opinions of the players who played at a time when HF was at it’s peak and their census of the tier listing then anyone’s else.
I still stand by my tier listing, however yours isn’t that much different. I still would not put Blanka that high since Guile still beats him out overall, nor Sagat that low, the rest isn’t too bad, and I can agree this much, beyond the Top 5, you can pretty much debate it forever. I won’t post my tier listing again, since I already did so once.
The top 5 I have with some info from Wats was 1. Ryu 2. Guile 3. Blanka 4. Sagat 5. Ken, this is obvious with the notion more so from HF competition back in the early-mid 90’s, not today.
so how is Blanka is HF, and what tier is he?
Just say he’s Top 3, I actually had him at #4, but Wats said he should be #3, and so I didn’t argue, but just simply agreed.
It’s debatable like alot of the cast, i think he’s tied for 2nd with guile and wats put him at #3
truesephiroth i’m sure HF was a big deal when it was new n alot of ppl played it in the arcade but HF for xbla sold over 2million downloads n theres alot of comp for it on xbl even with lag aside i think an arguement can be made to say HF is at it’s peak now more then ever. HF for xbla has spawned quite a few players who u can tell would do well at a real life tournament jus by seeing how they play on xbl. Even with lag n input delay aside i believe there are a considerable number of players who are quite skilled on xbl, i think alotta ppl who dont have xbl dismiss everyone who does as all lag abusers it’s true there r alot of them but not everyone is like that. You can put sagat as #4 however i’m sticking to the tier i posted above bout him being tied with ken n chun for 4th especially considering i play HF offline with my friends as well so thats what i based my tier groupings by.
EDIT: i’m gonna checkout the first post of this thread to see if i can findout what characters were most popular when this game was new n which characters usually won tournaments.
Are you saying that HF’s lvl of play today rivals that of the early-mid 90’s…then seriously where all of these HF tournaments. It’s not a serious scenery until you get some high lvl tournies to prove it, otherwise how can you possibly say HF today>HF of the 90’s???
I play HF on XBL quite a bit, and to be honest, I don’t think the level of play on there is as high as it was back in the day. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a handful of really good players, and there’s actually quite a few decent players. But all in all, I don’t think it’s as rough and tough as it used to be.
With that being said, I actually blame most of this on the lag…not the players. I think there’s enough decent players on there, that if they had been playing the same game for the past year and change with no lag then it’d be a different story.
The main problem is that you simply can’t train yourself to use/counter certain tactics. Simple things, like jumping straight up over fireballs, punishing whiffed SRK’s, doing reversals, and so on are much harder to pull off consistently with variable lag. On the flip side, there’s a lot of stuff that tends to connect during lag that’d be blocked easily. The net result of all of this, is that most people become trained to do things that wouldn’t work offline.
How come Sim isnt as good in HF? Sim has been good in like every SF game
Couldn’t have said it better myself this is what i meant.
What do u mean u can’t train urself to use/counter certain tactics? for example if i see a shoto do a late fireball at midrange i’m always gonna hop over that shit otherwise i agree with everything u said.
Sim is the same here as he is in any other sf2 game but as sweetJ said he just has low priority and no matter what he does his normals n specials get beatout more often then not.
Sorry. I don’t think I phrased that very well.
What I was trying to say is that there are certain tactics that work just fine offline, but are MUCH more risky online. There’s are also certain tactics that will hardly ever work offline, but are hard to block/counter reliably online.
Because of this, if you try to play like you would offline all the time, you’ll lose more often. This happens to me a fair bit when I recklessly try things that *should and would *work fine offline but ends up failing online :sad: So, many people that only play online have shifted or completely developed a set of tactics and strategy to accomodate what works better online(Snappin’s Ken is a good example of this). These are bad habits if you want to be good offline. And further more, I think some of the affects of lag dumb down the game ever-so-slightly.
I’ll give you some concrete examples:
Using Sim’s st. Jab as AA against Ryu/Ken’s jump in roundhouse
You can use this move to slap them out of the air cleanly and stop their advance. I probably time this cleanly 8~9 times out of 10 offline. However, given the variable lag and input delay online, trying to time this right is *a lot more *hit or miss. So, you’re left with two choices.
Try it all the time anyway and gamble on losing a lot of life. If you try this all the time, and the variable input delay causes you to mis-time it, then you’ll often eat j.RH, cr.forward -> SRK/Fireball. If you get hit with this, you’re dizzy and you’ll eat another combo. Peace out!
Mostly remove this from your gameplay and only pull it out if you’re desparate. This is safer during that one attack, but it also let’s them move in on you for free all the time. And Sim wants to keep you out, so he can annoy you with his limbs. Once you let the shotos in, it’s cr.LK and cross-ups all day.
As you can see, this drastically changes how you can play.
Walk-in/tick throws
Offline, you’d just use your reversal DP to stop these attempts. Sure, you’ll get suckered in by the random one offline, you might even mis-time your reversal on occasion. But for the most part, if you see a tick coming offline, you can reverse it fairly consistently.
Online is another story. With input delay, you can often see it coming from a mile away and still not be able to time your reversal correctly. Instead, trying to reverse throw sometimes becomes a better strategy. Because it’s easier to get 10 attempts of holding back and mashing MP/FP than it is to time a DP at some mysteriously changing point in time to do a perfect reversal.
Again, this changes your tactics. Offline, if you learn to time your reversal correctly you win 100% of the time you do it against a tick-throw. Online, you either lose more often by mis-timing the tick throw, or you go for reversal throws which are also a roll of the dice.
Stopping Honda’s Torpedo with a DP
Offline, if you have a decent reaction time and Honda tries to do a torpedo from the other side of the screen you can DP him pretty reliably. Online…not so much.
This alone, makes Honda a much better character online than he is offline. All of his bad match-ups revolve around him getting in on anyone with a fireball. Online, all he has to do is wait for a gap in the action and do a fierce torpedo to give him a decent chance of getting close to you. Offline, this would just result in him getting DP’d and blocking a fireball on wakeup to reset the zone.
Footsies
A lot of this entire play style goes out the window online. You simply can’t punish whiffed moves on XBL like you can offline.
Almost all of these train both sides into using or not using certain tactics. The guy that uses the tactic that wins online is training himself to get beat up for doing things that won’t work offline. It’s also training the players on the defensive side to let their countering skills and timing atrophy, or worse yet, not even realize they have these options!
Not entirely. He plays somewhat similarly from WW~SSF2, but I’m pretty sure he got nerfed in HF. I don’t remember his priority and damage levels being as bad in WW or CE. I completely forget how he fared in SSF2. And, of course, he’s a lot better in ST.
Thx for clearing thatup and a very well said post to boot i would rep u if i could.
LOL lag makes honda GODTIER:lol: and u ain’t lying bout the reversal throwshit being easier then reversal DP either cuz lag ENCOURAGES throws i always call HF a throwfest all the time i know exactly when i’m gonna get thrown n i can’t do anything about it.
I play COMPLETELY differently online then i do offline for example in any SF2 offline i play rushdown sagat but when i play AE n HF online the lag forces me to play defensively by zoning with fb’s cuz rushdown sagat just don’t work when theres noticable lag. There have been countless scrubs online who beat me with lag tactics n have me thinking how badly i would have raped them offline n i’m sure u have felt the same way at 1 point or another.
As u have seen before i can rape jus bout anyone online with sagat simply by doing jump RH and crouching RH, however if i tried that shit offline i would get DP’ed in a heartbeat…unless i was doing jump RH in response to a fb of course. On good connections it’s hella easier to reversal DP and play rushdown n i find myself n the opponent throwing alot less as well go figure:looney:
How can u say footsies goes out the window online? I lost to quite a few shotos who do crossup RH n then crouching shortX4 which dizzies me n i can’t do shit about it cuz if i block the crossup and footsie games they will just walkup throw me:sad:
LOL i know u know what i’m talkin bout there be soo many times regardless of what character u use where something happens so that u have 2 options: u either reversal OR block n u can never pick block cuz then u get walkup thrown n u can’t reversal either cuz of lag so it’s a lose-lose situation:lol:
EDIT: lag dumbs down the overal mindgames a bit cuz it forces u to win with shenanigans NOT solid stable strategy IMO. like snappin on niggas now known as bronx prettyboy a certain underhanded playstyle is encouraged forcing riskier actions by the player who can’t exploit lag as well although with all that said i still firmly believe that no matter how much or how little lag there is u can seperate the online scrubs from the good players by watching what they do and more importantly WHEN they do it.
well in WW Sim was the only counter to Guile, then again WW was a slow game
That’s what I’m talking about, HF of the 90’s>>>>HF of Today, you can’t argue this, the competition then was way higher. Comming from me, I may not have been a Tomo Ohira or Mike Watson, however I had my share of playing HF and doing some stateside competitions/tournaments during the peak of it’s glory days.
I will say this, the average Hyper Fighting player back then had balls, they where either solid or very solid. Because there was a far greater number of players playing Street Fighter back in those days, however there was also a far greater number of tournaments being held.
You didn’t need to live in big cities to get great competition like how today’s day is, because it was most likely already within your local arcade. Of course the best competition hands down was in L.A. however the fact that you could find solid competition outside of big cities helped alot to make the average HF player of that time better then today.
Reading things up like Tomo Ohira Psychic Dragon Punching shit like c.fk’s on reaction is just unbelievable and ridiculous. Again, I take nothing away from Online SFII:HF players, I’m sure there are some solid players on there, but they definetly are not equivalent or overall equivalent to the best during the hay day of Hyper Fighting in the 90’s.
I agree with you Johnny on the offline tactics just simply cannot work at times for online. Like for example, if your Ryu and if you can solidly punish Guile’s whiffed c.mk with sweeps, you will eat him alive in the footsie department, however doing this online is so damn hard to do consistently.
However, I’m not an online player for XBL, most of my memories of HF where back at the arcades in the old times if you will. I was very good locally, however going to other states like Illinois, Minnesota, and even when I visited relatives in California at the time, the competition there was especially good, like…every single player I played was good…not one match felt free at all. I am though, done with the HF competitive scene, I am nowhere near the person I was back in those times.
Good to see that this game is getting the love it so richly deserves, honestly, the best thing now is for you guys to start setting up HF tournaments and get the ball rolling, this is hands down, the best Street Fighter game of all time, and deserves a righteous rival, even if it’s not a huge one, it’s still good to just get it going.
^^^i love HF as much as the next guy hell i prolly played close to 7000 matches but to say that it’s better then ST is going way too far.
I’m not saying overall the comp is better now then it was back then i’m just saying i think quite a few online players could give whoever was considered the best back then a run for their money.
(real decoy, narcissus caesar, kj out the 17th, n a few others who i can’t think of right now come to mind)
EDIT: sim isn’t the best character in ST cuz he’s such a beast it’s cuz he’s the only one who doesn’t have any severe disadvantages against anyone, for example claw is IMO sim’s worst matchup but even then sim is only at a slight disadvantage n much less so if that sim player can AA with his “slap” consistently. In HF sim still has all the same tactics n moves they just don’t work as well as they do in ST cuz all his shit gets stuffed CLEAN easily n as i recall in SSF2 sim was pretty good too. I have more respect for sim players then anyone else cuz u have to have an entirely different gameplan for virtually every character in the game.
How is ST better than HF? Worse balance, more homogenized roster (nearly everyone has big damage, invincible startup super and a lot of chars got moves they didn’t need, specifically invincible AAs), characters like Blanka, Guile and Gief are nerfed unnecessarily, throws are nerfed unnecessarily… what’s better about it? I will admit I prefer ST to HF for the “feel” and the fact that the characters feel a little more fleshed out in some cases and the game is much more polished presentation-wise… but I hardly think, when looking at gameplay alone, that ST is the better game.
Although ST isn’t as balanced as HF u see a much greater variet in playstyles and character use and overall it’s just plain more fun although that is subjective the vast majority agree considerign theres a large competative scene for it and for HF there is no scene outside of xbl which doesn’t really count when compared to tournament play.
Why do u think they are making ST remix n not HF remix? Go ask sirlin why he thinks ST is better then HF i’m sure he’l give u a very detailed insight.
EDIT: how can u say alot of chars have invincible AA’s? have u ever played HF? if u did u would know ryu n kens srk is GODLY almost 0 startup and recovery on the weak srk is negligible just go look at ryus hitbox for his srk on the first post…u won’t find that kind of invincibility anywhere else.
You only named 2 characters though. He said most as in almost everybody. Not just two.