Not really. That place is accessible to me, but it’s a two-hour drive and gas prices being what they are. Plus, last time I went to L.A. to play games, I witnessed a deadly car crash on the way back. Not in a big hurry to return…
Awesome post OG Ken, I’d like to play you someday. I completely forgot about ken’s walk speed being faster, and I didn’t realize it made much of a difference. I used to play this chun player and we were testing walking speeds between chun ryu and ken one day (of course chun is the fastest) and he was going on in theory about how ken could be better against chun than ryu. I wasn’t really paying attention.
Ken’s dp besides having more distance is also faster on startup or something than ryu’s dp. I think I already posted it in this thread somewhere but chun li can’t get safe jumps against ken’s dp but she can against ryu dp.
Having a faster movement doesn’t give Ken any big advantage, Ken’s biggest problem up against Ryu is that Ryu can outzone Ken far better than he can outzone Ryu. Inv. Frame Hurricane Kick has it’s advantages up against Ken in situations, any Hadouken near within sweep range or slightly outside can be ripped through by Ryu knocking Ken down, and giving Ryu the initiative.
A well spacing/zoning Ryu will force Ken to come to him, this goes into Ryu’s favor. Walking speed doesn’t do much to help within this situation, because up against a good Ryu player, the chances of you landing a combo is next to almost nothing. Forcing you to jump forward will only pay risk to Ken and you’ll suffer either a s.fk(Thank goodness Ken can no longer stuff things like this in HF like how he did in CE with his high priority jump in fp bs), or a lp. Shoryuken, putting you back at square one.
Ken’s only advantage would be if he where to knock Ryu upon the ground, giving Ken the initiative and this allows Ryu to not be able to zone, this matchup comes down to Ryu spacing/zoning and Ken trying to get in.
It is not within Ken’s favor, it’s within Ryu’s favor. Also, about Guile, he is no lower than Top 3 within HyperFighting, even with the slower SB, and longer charging FlashKick. He still has huge priority on all of his regular attacks, slower SB doesn’t stop him from being able to zone/punish most of the cast into submission.
He fights extremely well against everysingle character aside from a select few(Claw’s a pain in the ass). He’s just not CE good to be #1, but still good enough to be top 3.
For me, Top 3 is still Ryu, Guile, and Blanka.
Hey EvilJ. I’ll be at Cal Poly tommorow. You can post here and let’s get some games.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=113811&page=15
First of all, good Ken players don’t fireball in close range. A Ken player will have to battle for position with kicking, which is where Ken’s speed comes into play. Try having a ground kicking battle for fun with Ryu Vs Ken… with no fireballs, just kicking, and see who has the advantage.
Ryu’s spin kick is a reactionary move. Ken doesn’t need close range fireballs to win. I can’t even remember the last time someone traded off a spin kick with my fireball. Like, Ive said before, the fireball is a vulnerable move by itself. The only time it’s not vulnerable is in a combo or following a previously correctly timed fireball. If you’re gonna rely on this to win games, Ken will make you pay for it. If Ken spin kicks in the air while Ryu is doing a shoryuken, it barely takes any blood. But if Ken connects his combo, which is pretty easy, Ryu is dead. It doesn’t even have to be a clean jump hit. Jumping fierce from a distance followed by short and shoryuken works great. I’ve done this a million times. In closer range, even jump forward kick into fierce ALWAYS connects no matter what. Even if the forward kick is super early. You can try this in anniversay edition since this version tells you if your combo connects or not. So yes, for an experienced Ken player, it’s pretty easy to connect combos after jumping in on Ryu’s fireball. I can connect combos from mid range and close range all day long.
Ryu doesn’t have enough tools to get out of a corner trap. I see it all the time in Ryu vs Ryu matches. The guy in the corner stays there and he’s dead. However, Ken has more tools because he can cancel out repetitive fireballs with his quick air spin kick going backwards whereas Ryu’s lasts too long. Everytime I trap Ryu in the corner, he usually stays there because his tools are limited.
In casuals, sometimes I go to the corner on purpose just to practice getting out of it. For me, Ryu’s fireball zoning is something I already expect and im used to it. Everyone who plays Ryu fireballs. I already know exactly what to do. It’s not unstoppable. A couple of game ending combos here and there usually makes the person think twice :).
I use Ryu’s hurricane kick a lot against fireball throwers, even Ken; however, I find that against good players it’s not really worth it. Ken’s jab fireball is very hard to HK out of.
I’m not sure about corner traps; maybe I’m just not seeing it. It’s just that Ken’s fireballs are too slow to do the basic Ryu “slow/fast fb” bait-and-switch, and using his normals in a quick-draw game (I’m still looking for words to use other than “footsie”) is risky because of Ryu’s short HK, which is difficult to counter unless your timing and positioning is perfect.
Playing Ryu as a strict fireball character only really works against people who don’t have them. You have to use more of his tools to win when you’re playing other FB characters.
Yes, the hurricane kick is extremely difficult to execute through Ken or Ryu’s jab fireballs. It’s always best for Ryu to do it early and simply trade off hits because his spin kick takes off more damage. But in order to do this, he has to be in range. Good Ken players know this range so they’re very cautious if they find the need to throw one.
Ken doesn’t need a fierce fireball to trap. He can trap effectively with jab fireballs followed by closing in with quick hitting roundhouse/fireball combos and constantly being confrontational. Of course you’re always gonna be looking out for that short spin kick. You can down fierce punch it in close range. You can trade off hits when Ryu fireballs. Ryu is almost immobile in the corner. Most players usually have an urge to simply spin kick hoping to get out of an uncomfortable situation, but if you expect it, you can make him pay for it. There are a variety of moves to keep Ryu in the corner. The fireball trap is not 100% effective. You need to close in and apply pressure. You usually see Ryu players trapping Ken in the corner, however, when the roles are reversed, Ryu’s weakness is clearly shown.
And yes, I have played against many good Ryu players, including Mike Watson. My friends and cousin also play Ryu very very well so I get alot of games against them. Their best players are Ryu. It’s easier for them to play Ryu than Ken because Ken is much more difficult to master, simply because Ken doesn’t rely on fireball zoning to win. He relies on reaction, execution, and applying pressure with speedy attacks.
My tier list
Gief
Ken
Ryu
Sagat
Honda
Chun
Blanka
Sim
Guile
Balrog
Bison
Vega
That’s the beauty of the Inv. Hurricane Kick, at close range, the opponent always has to keep it in mind.
With Ken, you have to come to Ryu this is not an advantage, but a disadvantage. You can’t outzone Ryu, you can zone for a bit with fireballs, however you will be resorted to jumping upward while moving forward, you will end up eating a few blocked Hadoukens along the way. Jump timing is crucial at these points and LP. Hadouken isn’t effective unless your right now to Ryu.
Also, jump in combos aren’t that effective, and I’ll tell you why. Because most of us are still playing New Generation Style Mentality. Jump in’s with Ken is a big risk within Ken’s part, especially if he’s going up against a very good Ryu player. Ken has to resort to trying to get it.
Ryu can play it safe and safely zone, you don’t need to throw out fireballs constantly to zone Ken out, you just need to throw enough to force Ken to having to make that one crucial jump forward. This is why Ken’s speed doesn’t factor much into this matchup. Because Ryu simply has safer defensive tools.
Ken being cornered is just as bad, because seriously, what are you going to do? You can’t fight fireball with fireball, the Ryu player can easily bait you into jumping forward, and stuffing you with a shoryuken to pin you back down again. Ken’s hurricane kick is pointless to do at this time, because it doesn’t knock Ryu down, and on tradeoff’s, it’s still within Ryu’s favor.
Ken has to completely commit into jumping forward (Remember this, always a risk, and up against a good Ryu player, it’s very bad), and have Ryu whiff a fireball, however this comes down to Ken anticipating the fireball, so yes, committing.
When it comes down to footsies( saying between shoto vs shoto), it really comes down to the player’s reaction and execution, not the character. Ken’s walking speed doesn’t give him any huge advantage upon this part, because it’s up to you as the player to react to the footsies game. This is no different then what Tomo vs Wats was like back during the Glory Days of HyperFighting in their Shoto vs Shoto matchups, it came down to who reacted better on whiffs and punished correctly.
I’m not saying this is a lopsided Ryu dominates Ken, it’s pretty damn close, but Ryu edges out on this.
Ps: Genuine Gold Thread, great to talk to peeps who know so much about HF, makes me want to cry sometimes :sad::lovin:
ken gets outta corner really easy. this is frustrating cuz i’m a ryu player. all ken needs to do is jump back and spinkick in air. this will distrupt the fireball rhythm of ryu. try to get back into rythem and u might get a jump in combo from ken sending u into dizzy country. good ryu and ken matches usually end up with in the ground at close range with sweeps. ken is faster so u need to watch out for him just walking in for a throw. but ryu can use the fierce fireball in that situation too his advantage. 2 fireball hits and dizzy for the win. i think ryu and ken match is pretty even up against good players. advantage doesn’t go to anyone. but in order to play ken good, u need to have good reflexes, thats why i prefer ryu, mines suck.
Imagine you’re playing against the perfect Ken or Ryu player who can effectively jump in and combo everytime you throw a fireball. So in theory, in midrange, a fireball thrown is a vulnerability. If it wasn’t a vulnerability, people would throw fireballs all day without even thinking and street fighter would be the stupidest fighting game on the planet.
So in theory, if you want to be the perfect player, you need attacks that are going to take blood off, while minimizing your vulnerability. So what can you do if you can’t fireball? You have to resort to ground kicks because everytime you land a crouching roundhouse, you can throw a fireball to take blood off. When it comes to ground kicks, speed DOES matter. The ability to go in and out quick enough will be a clear advantage. Most people don’t understand this, that’s why I have such an easy time winning :).
Jump ins do matter and that should be on Ryu’s first watch out priority simply because he can lose the game if he gets caught slipping. It’s not a big risk for ken to jump in…like I mentioned earlier… a shoryuken to a air spin kick barely takes off any damage. I don’t think the risk reward is in Ryu’s favor. There are also other ways to attack, not just straight up jumping in. A low aerial spin kick will get you in the door as well.
TheRealOGKen: Your from Cali right? Are you going to Evo Vegas at all? I would like to have a long set with you in HF if you are interested. HF is my favorite SF game and it definetly fun to play all around. Im gonna be throwing some small thing at evo east for it but anyway lemme know whats up man!
Later
Alex Wolfe asked me if I was gonna go, but I heard Anniversary Edition wasn’t even part of the program, so I’m not sure what the point of going is. Correct me if Im wrong, but if it is…then im in! I have more experience in hyper fighting than AE, but I feel AE is smoother. Is someone gonna bring a hyper cabinet or what 
?
AE also has CE Bison.
AE is fucking garbage.
In HF - Ryu beats Ken. Actually…any game where Ken is better than Ryu, that game usually sucks.
Derek Daniels
Surely you’re not suggesting that Puzzle Fighter is a bad game? :o
Or 3rd Strike for that matter? Ah,well,to each their own. By the time I first played HF, I was way too used to the pace of CE and WW,so I never got into it. It felt way too frickin’ fast for me. Waits to be laughed at by the HF hardcore
you have to pay to use his name
i sitting here with mike watson, we have been reading your posts out loud. and mike watson is laughing his ass off. he said you have to ask him and pay him to use his name. he said you suck and he will mop you up any time rusty or not.
o.gken’s strat is basically summed up in: jump bad fireballs for free combos that lead to dizzy.
followed by: get in close then play footsies with ryu.
which is basically everybody’s strat against ryu. Blanka, Chun, Guile, all do the same things. Jumping bad fireballs then trading/zoning with high priority long range pokes that trade/beat fireballs.
With those arguments you can argue that everyone is better than Ryu.
real og ken: just to let you know, since you seem to be new to srk, threads always end up like this. In the ST thread, after alex wolfe and graham won evo west, they started to give a lot of advice, very good advice I might add, and people on the boards like to play theory fighter this and that. Some people are more concerned about being right on the message boards or about the mechanics of the game than actually getting better (especially with an old ass game) so don’t be offended or discouraged if the majority of people don’t agree with you. Alex just went on to win evo worlds and now the wolfe brothers are AE representatives for SBO. The players then stop posting good advice or strats.
I think ryu is better than ken from everything I’ve heard and consider myself at least decent with ryu, but I’m pretty sure your ken is sick from reading the AE SBO results thread. You’ve probably made the best arguments out of anyone that I’ve ever seen post that ken could be better than ryu. That’s why I’m more motivated to get some games in with you compared to before because you seem like you’re willing to teach.