The Return of the Thigh: Chun-Li SSF4 Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
521

Hosenka would still be a perfectly viable ultra if they would just fix it. I never understood why characters like Boxer got ultras that comboed AND juggled every hit 90% of the time and Chun got stuck with an ultra that won’t even corner juggle consistently. Where is the logic?

It wouldn’t be so bad if most of Chuns other moves didn’t have the exact same problems. SBK sucks because hits always whiff, and even normal legs misses a ton of hits lots of the time. Chun’s biggest weakness is not being sure her specials are even going to connect properly.

522

The logic is that different ultras have different uses.
The main use of Chun’s ultra is as direct punishment to stuff on block or to be done reactively to things like fireballs/wheelkicks etc, it locks down options.
Chun’s ultra is one of the better ones in the game, if it juggled against every character it would be in the 2nd tier of the ultras, Sagat’s being alone at the top.

Only thing about Hosenka is that she’s got moves that can fill the same purpose for the most part and still lead into u2 because they combo into ex legs somehow, it’ll also make it possible for her to be more mobile since she won’t have to maintain charge.
u2 is a huge buff to her on a much larger scale than just being able to combo into ultra, it’ll make her a more mobile character who’ll only need charge to throw fireballs, nothing else.

523

Except against a good half of the cast (twelve of the 25 in SFIV console version) it doesn’t punish anything U2 wouldn’t reasonably punish. Against a good half of these*, it doesn’t easily juggle in the corner, thus making it a dead choice in those matchups. Since all online, and most tournaments are double blind, and when it (hopefully) gets to arcades you’ll likely have to keep your Ultra choice, that means in most competetitive situations, if you choose U2, your decently worse off in what, three, four matchups? Honestly, depending on the playstyle of your oponent, and how good it is at catching focus fishing (likely a large problem for Chun in SSFIV) the only characters you really suffer against will be Honda & Blanka. Whereas if you choose U1, you’re going to be worse off against those 6 or so characters where U1 has no obvious use outside of corner combos, and much worse off against those 6 against whom it essentialy has no use, and I mean sure, if you choose U2 and you play a fireball happy Ryu, or a ball happy Blanka you’re going to be all “damn, that sucks” but you’re probably going to land that mid screen combo into Ultra anyway. If you pick U1 and you get Viper or Fei, the chances of you getting anything out of your Ultra are pretty damn slim.

No way. Even with a universal juggle it wouldn’t be good as Abel’s, let alone Rufus/Boxer/Ryu/Sagat. The only matchup where it really shines is Blanka, and that’s because his only reversal is unsafe on hit, which is stupid and should be changed.

You’re not exactly helping your point.

Considering U2 is looking Boxer level (more setups, less damage), making this change isn’t even going to push her up the tier list, it’s just going to make her more interesting.

*If I recal correctly it’s six of those twelve, but I might not.

524

I don’t see how Kikosho won’t improve her tier ranking, surely being able to execute a guaranteed juggle ultra at any part of the screen is better and as any Chun player knows one of her big weaknesses is lack of anti air and Kikosho will help here too, it probably will do less damage but I hardly ever use ultra to win most matches anyway I pretty much always use normals, combos etc so personally I see an easy to combo ultra being a real boon. I totally agree with Skatan that Hosenka is a punishment/lock down move not to say I don’t take advantage of juggling characters that will if the opportunity comes along, obviously. Not being difficult I just want to know why you think kikosho makes her “more interesting” rather than stronger.

525

Bitch had a command grab in that game …

Kikosho is going to average out her risk/reward in a lot of matchups where the opponent is getting nerfs.

Sagat is going to be much better with inferior pokes, lower damage, and lower health.
Ryu Lower ultra damage and no trade dp
Gief you now can confirm damage off pokes now and anti-air FP>FP which is a major risk/reward improvement

526

300 damage on Kikosho w/ Full Ultra meter. In relation to other Ultras in SSF4, is that a lot?

chun_li1

527

If you meant landing it cold, its piss poor.

If you meant comboing into it…then its kinda middle of the road.

I think the most damaging ones in terms of combo into ultra are ken’s deep j.RH > Ultra, and Abel’s c.fierce > Ultra.

528

I didn’t know kikosho was only going to do 300 damage, when was this revealed? Not much time left to change stuff now either…

529

I’m glad Kikosho doesn’t do a lot of damage. All the scrubs are going to be using it every time because of all the setups it has, and everyone is going to get used to seeing it. Then they’re going to be mad surprised when they get a Hosenka to the FACE!

530

Robotic Elf: I could try and argue why I think differently, but I won’t.
Arguing online, or even offline, usualy just leads to circle-arguments so there’s no point to do it.
Since it can’t be pointed out clearly what is right and wrong, it’s better to just settle an an agreement to disagree.

If combo into kikoushou makes it do 300dmg, then that would still be higher than what she gets now in the corner.

531

300 dmg at full meter is low. For comparison’s sake, Sakura’s ultra in vanilla does 435 with full meter.

If the ultra meter scales the same in super, that means 200 dmg at half meter.

532

Yes, this has to be 300 off c.short x 2 > Ex legs.

IF its 300 cold…that would be stupid beyond what even Ono is capable of.

533

People pay way too much attention to the tiers, it should be used as a guide on where you should be in your skill level and not an absolute guaruntee you will win. What was the difference in Chun Li almost 12 months ago and now since she’s a couple of steps away from Top Tier? It’s not like they gave her a new move in SFIV since the release. Every character has been the same since release the only thing changing is how people play her. Thats why the Tier list is garbage to me. It’s a pretty good measuring stick but it’s not absolute.

So to answer your question, Kikosho is just an extra tool that will make her more of a threat but it won’t maker her easy to play like Ryu or Sagat, but at the same time it’s not gonna be what moves her tier up or down, it’s gonna be how people at higher levels user her.

534

Don’t we have video of cr.LK>cr.LK>EX Legs, Kikosho KO’ing from like…350-400 health? Ryu’s Ultra maxes out at 398 in SFIV, I don’t think it should be much weaker than it.

535

…and people will get the chance to use her at top levels with a more usable and bankable ultra. You can’t toss the baby out with the dishwater in this issue. They are both relative to each other. Good players are locked out from top spots with Chun-li due to players being better with other more bankable characters. When it comes to competition you need to sell to a player of skill that his efforts will be worthwhile to take him to top ranks. If the character has low health, can he avoid damage? If he has good damage, can he apply it under numerous situations?

It’s not where Chun is on the tier-list, you’re completely right on this, but the tiers themselves are reflective of players going through the EFFORT to discover more about a character as time goes on. This isn’t going to happen without tools in place.* Kikkosho is such a tool*. It’s something that may, or may not be enough to sell Chun-li to the right hands for her to blossom.

This will, in reality affect her tiering. Will that matter to most? No, but it will show whether or not Chun-li is someone worth taking to the top and risking it all. It’s why players like Valle drop Bison for Ryu. When it comes to putting the money where your mouth is, do you have the tools to win? Kikkosho has the potential to be the kind of tool that will make everything else Chun-li has point to ‘yes’.

536

I gotta agree with Inverse on this one.

Kiko is going to draw more top players, and more scrubs.

I don’t care about the scrubs, hell we all started as scrubs and grew from there…but I am definitely very interested in the attention she receives from more solid players, that will only make the chun army that much stronger.

537

where did you get this number from?

some math and numbers from chuns full corner utra juggle currently:

chuns full ultra with no juggle or scaling = 510 damage

lk x 2 xx ex legs > ultra = 432 damage

lk x 3 xx ex legs > ultra = 404 damage

close hk xx ex legs > ultra = 549 damage

ryus numbers to full ultra juggle:

full ultra no juggle no scaling = 398 damage

hp srk fadc > ultra = 478

cr.lp x 2 xx hp srk fadc > ultra 427

the towards +fierece stuff i’m not going to list, as that isnt really applicable to chuns situation.

if chuns new u2 does 300 damage when comboed into short short ex legs… that is a total of 480 damage… which is alot.

if it does 300 damage from close hk xx ex legs, that wil be a total of 600 damage versus some characters such as guile and blanka, which is a fuckload.

honestly i believe kikosho will do 450 damage at max. when compared to ryus ultra, chuns cant hit from full screen nor can it go through fireballs like ryus… it has little range.

short short ex legs > ultra 2 will probably end up doing 400 -450 damage… anything more than that is major overkill… personally i think it woul be fine at 400 damage.

howeverif full ultra only did 300 damage unscaled… then kikosho will blow.

short short ex legs >u2 will only do something like 340 damage when full.

it’ll still be useful, might still get picked over hosenka in most matchups… but man, its going to suck to blow a full ultra on 340 combo’d damage.

i hope her full u2 does atleast 400 damage, that way short shrt bnb >u2 does around 400 damage when comboed into.

-dime

538

I might even come back to Chun myself actually. We might have to swap avatars. :slight_smile:

539

If it’s base full damage is 300 however (not after the setup, which is what I think you’re saying here), then it should still do about 540 damage after cl. hK xx EX Legs (and 490 on other characters) which is still pretty good. But off of something like cr. lk x 2 or cr. lk x 3 xx EX Legs it probably won’t even reach 400 damage because that shit’s gonna scale hard by that time. That might be the real tradeoff right there where the easy Bnb is not going to net you the good damage. Cl. hk isn’t extremely hard to land but compared to cr. lk it takes a little more effort catching the opponent with it.

For those who just plan on mashing out empty EX Legs during blockstrings to fish for U2, be very careful with that because currently they are NOT invincible on startup. That may not change in super and there are frame traps to exploit that fact.

Still I’m thinking I’ll just use it in matches where I can’t land/threaten with Hosenka as much (which aren’t very many for the current SF4 matchups) while sticking with Hosenka for the rest.
The main benefit I see from U2 though is Chun can be more mobile without worrying about charging to set it up. You see a juggle set up and you just rip that shit!

540

were did u get that number from?