The Real Bout FF Special Thread: RANGE Line Shift Counter Chart Part I up!

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

Something else I noticed: You can’t cancel a dash directly into a command grab. You have to press back to stop the dash first.

And I think there really is a “low tier” just above Cheng & EX Tung. These would be characters like Chonshu, Bob, Franco, maybe Krauser & others.

Also, just figured out something that could potentially be game-changing:

If you’re in the foreground and the opponent is in the background, the D followup to Sokaku’s Dance of Demons is UNBLOCKABLE! This is the only move in the entire game that has this property!

Now, if you’re in the background and the opponent is in the foreground, it will completely whiff. But luckily enough, you both start the round in the foreground, so you can stay there and use this to shut down people’s line-shift game! And remember that this move also has other followups that beat anything else the opponent can try - an overhead, a low sweep, and an anti-air.

Note that in order to execute this, you will need to hop or backdash and mash A during that animation.

Considering that Sokaku is one of the very best characters on an even playing field, I think this could potentially put him up there with Billy and maybe even make him #1.

-Josh

[Dark_Geese]

Something else I noticed: You can’t cancel a dash directly into a command grab. You have to press back to stop the dash first.

And I think there really is a “low tier” just above Cheng & EX Tung. These would be characters like Chonshu, Bob, Franco, maybe Krauser & others.

Also, just figured out something that could potentially be game-changing:

If you’re in the foreground and the opponent is in the background, the D followup to Sokaku’s Dance of Demons is UNBLOCKABLE! This is the only move in the entire game that has this property!

Now, if you’re in the background and the opponent is in the foreground, it will completely whiff. But luckily enough, you both start the round in the foreground, so you can stay there and use this to shut down people’s line-shift game! And remember that this move also has other followups that beat anything else the opponent can try - an overhead, a low sweep, and an anti-air.

Note that in order to execute this, you will need to hop or backdash and mash A during that animation.

Considering that Sokaku is one of the very best characters on an even playing field, I think this could potentially put him up there with Billy and maybe even make him #1.

-Josh

Well Sokaku is #2 in the game so he is up there with Billy certainly…

[MUSOLINI]

So I’m actually playing this now.

I think EX Tung might be even worse than Cheng. Seriously, just try him out once and you’ll see why.

EX Andy is fun if you can get in on the opponent, and probably better than the normal version…he has a pursuit, and an air-to-ground throw much like Fuuma’s in WHP. And you can do it from a hop, even!

I dunno if EX Billy is better than the normal one, but I think he’s more fun at least. After the b,f+A->b,f+C, you can JUGGLE his P-Power in the corner!

Also, with Billy in general, in case you didn’t know, you can link a far C into a standing A combo at long range.

Honestly, the more I play this the more I realize that a good number of characters are weaker than in RB2. Here are my thoughts:

Chonshu: The most obvious one probably. His P-Power is terrible in Special, rather than one of the best in 2, and it’s almost impossible to get his silly crossup game to work. Additionally, after that close C string, you can only combo the DP and sometimes not even that.

Franco: Another very obvious one IMO. He has almost NONE of the high/low or constant pressure that makes him so dangerous in 2. You can combo the uppercut super in this one, true, but the P-Power is garbage. No way in HELL he is A tier…I actually think he’s one of the worst characters overall, when you combine all of this with his crappy line-shift attacks.

Yamazaki: He’s extremely similar in the two games, but I think 2 has a slight edge. This is mostly because of the d/f+A upper - just another medium-speed normal in Special, but the single fastest normal in 2. Also, Special doesn’t have the sand kick overhead, and the f+A overhead is a little better in 2 as it has a chain that knocks them into the background.

Bob: The breakdance move is nice, but he can’t juggle after DP kick in RBS, the P-Power is a little better in 2, and I think he can’t juggle from his throw unless I’m missing something. Oh yeah, and then there’s that infinite he doesn’t have in RBS…

Krauser: I’d rather have 2’s version of the leg tomahawk - the RBS one only combos from an A-C chain at point-blank range. The grab super has an easier/quicker motion in 2. The added dp+C move in 2 is an effective and very damaging anti-air. The Iori-style grab is also much better in 2 thanks to the f,f+C->dp+C followup. And RB2 has better corner combos thanks to feint cancels. So in RBS he’s not exactly a dominator in a head-to-head fight, and horrible at the line shift game…so why do people think he’s good again?

I also think Hon-Fu, Terry, & Cheng are debatable, but that may have to come later…

I’m coming for ya, Geese!

-Josh

terry and hon aint really that debatable. they are that high cause they got good moves and priorities, in hons case good s and ppower, in terry case just the ppower. another thing that shouldnt be overlooked is the damage these characters can do with just 1 combo, without s or ppowers. this is another reason why franco aint just as low as you say he is. cause after hitting 1 C you can pretty much take 70% of their life, and thats without the spower or corner combos. ex tung probably only has his corner combos and normals going for him. which does make him suck a lil bit. his 2 shitty throws don’t do him justice. normal tung is better IMO.

[Dark_Geese]

terry and hon aint really that debatable. they are that high cause they got good moves and priorities, in hons case good s and ppower, in terry case just the ppower. another thing that shouldnt be overlooked is the damage these characters can do with just 1 combo, without s or ppowers. this is another reason why franco aint just as low as you say he is. cause after hitting 1 C you can pretty much take 70% of their life, and thats without the spower or corner combos. ex tung probably only has his corner combos and normals going for him. which does make him suck a lil bit. his 2 shitty throws don’t do him justice. normal tung is better IMO.

You beat me to the punch…I was gonna say this.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

I know about the damage people can deliver in this game. But what can Franco do against a turtle? Maybe empty-jump -> throw, but that’s not damaging or easy to set up. He has little mixup in this one, there are no feint cancels, and his Barom Punch (the A+B move in RBS) has much worse recovery than in 2.

The same criticism applies to many other characters as well - I think a lot of SNK players just hate turtling and don’t want to believe it’s a viable option, but in RBS it is very strong indeed. Musolini, you play with infinite time, right? That would explain why you see things differently.

Now then, since people are curious, I’ll comment a little more. Upon further playing, I do agree that Hon-Fu is better in this one, but I’m still not so sure about Cheng or even Terry. The thing with RBS Cheng is that he can’t use the B version ball as a breakshot - only the really slow C one. That’s his bread & butter right there. And the P-Power is even worse in this game, since opponents can easily line shift and punish him with a standing C combo.

Now, as for Terry, well, Power Dunk just sucks, period. The Power Charge -> Power Dunk chain doesn’t work on the girls, the Jin bros., or Tung. And Rising Tackle only combos from the charge at close range (i.e. not after a chain). Compare this to the Fire Kick - you can always juggle something from it at least, and (far more importantly) it’s a breakshot. With its convenient motion and damage, it is one of the very best breakshots in the game, and RBS Terry’s Power Dunk breakshot doesn’t even come close. Oh yeah, and he can’t combo his P-Power in RBS, except for a 1-hit juggle from the Power Charge.

Now, on a more positive note, holy crap is Joe fun in this! Great combos all around, a Kaiser-Wave style P-Power that doesn’t need a charge and combos from his launcher strings, and insane pressure with his projectile. In fact, Geese, could you maybe look into how good his line shifts are? In head-to-head fighting he blows Mai away, but we gotta see how he matches up on opposite planes…

Thanks,
Josh.

[Dark_Geese]

I know about the damage people can deliver in this game. But what can Franco do against a turtle? Maybe empty-jump -> throw, but that’s not damaging or easy to set up. He has little mixup in this one, there are no feint cancels, and his Barom Punch (the A+B move in RBS) has much worse recovery than in 2.

The same criticism applies to many other characters as well - I think a lot of SNK players just hate turtling and don’t want to believe it’s a viable option, but in RBS it is very strong indeed. Musolini, you play with infinite time, right? That would explain why you see things differently.

Now then, since people are curious, I’ll comment a little more. Upon further playing, I do agree that Hon-Fu is better in this one, but I’m still not so sure about Cheng or even Terry. The thing with RBS Cheng is that he can’t use the B version ball as a breakshot - only the really slow C one. That’s his bread & butter right there. And the P-Power is even worse in this game, since opponents can easily line shift and punish him with a standing C combo.

Now, as for Terry, well, Power Dunk just sucks, period. The Power Charge -> Power Dunk chain doesn’t work on the girls, the Jin bros., or Tung. And Rising Tackle only combos from the charge at close range (i.e. not after a chain). Compare this to the Fire Kick - you can always juggle something from it at least, and (far more importantly) it’s a breakshot. With its convenient motion and damage, it is one of the very best breakshots in the game, and RBS Terry’s Power Dunk breakshot doesn’t even come close. Oh yeah, and he can’t combo his P-Power in RBS, except for a 1-hit juggle from the Power Charge.

Now, on a more positive note, holy crap is Joe fun in this! Great combos all around, a Kaiser-Wave style P-Power that doesn’t need a charge and combos from his launcher strings, and insane pressure with his projectile. In fact, Geese, could you maybe look into how good his line shifts are? In head-to-head fighting he blows Mai away, but we gotta see how he matches up on opposite planes…

Thanks,
Josh.

Sure Josh I’ll take a look at Joes Line Shift and I’ll get back to you about that!

I know Mai beats Joe in the Line Shifts though…hence Mai wins that matchup.

[MUSOLINI]

I know about the damage people can deliver in this game. But what can Franco do against a turtle? Maybe empty-jump -> throw, but that’s not damaging or easy to set up. He has little mixup in this one, there are no feint cancels, and his Barom Punch (the A+B move in RBS) has much worse recovery than in 2.

The same criticism applies to many other characters as well - I think a lot of SNK players just hate turtling and don’t want to believe it’s a viable option, but in RBS it is very strong indeed. Musolini, you play with infinite time, right? That would explain why you see things differently.

Now then, since people are curious, I’ll comment a little more. Upon further playing, I do agree that Hon-Fu is better in this one, but I’m still not so sure about Cheng or even Terry. The thing with RBS Cheng is that he can’t use the B version ball as a breakshot - only the really slow C one. That’s his bread & butter right there. And the P-Power is even worse in this game, since opponents can easily line shift and punish him with a standing C combo.

Now, as for Terry, well, Power Dunk just sucks, period. The Power Charge -> Power Dunk chain doesn’t work on the girls, the Jin bros., or Tung. And Rising Tackle only combos from the charge at close range (i.e. not after a chain). Compare this to the Fire Kick - you can always juggle something from it at least, and (far more importantly) it’s a breakshot. With its convenient motion and damage, it is one of the very best breakshots in the game, and RBS Terry’s Power Dunk breakshot doesn’t even come close. Oh yeah, and he can’t combo his P-Power in RBS, except for a 1-hit juggle from the Power Charge.

Now, on a more positive note, holy crap is Joe fun in this! Great combos all around, a Kaiser-Wave style P-Power that doesn’t need a charge and combos from his launcher strings, and insane pressure with his projectile. In fact, Geese, could you maybe look into how good his line shifts are? In head-to-head fighting he blows Mai away, but we gotta see how he matches up on opposite planes…

Thanks,
Josh.

yeah i play any and all the fighters i play with infinite time, unless its impossible like in the old SS (1/3) and KOF (94/96) games. you do have good points, but thats exactly why there is a RB2 after RBS, they tried to improbe their mistakes. that doesnt change the fact that some characters are better in RBS than they are in RB2. and fuck yeah, joe is a killer in this one. cant believe somebody actually said he was low in this one. hes top dog, just below the S class. 50% normal combos, Bg breaking combos, can combo his ppower after a juggle.

back to your terry point. you should try and time you ppower better. after a powercharge do the ppower at the very last moment and you WILL hit all 3 geysers and do a shitload of damage. do this close to the corner and add a rising tackle at the end. only character so far in the game who io havent been ableto succesfully hit with all 3 geysers is yamazaki for some odd reason. but even he WILL get hit by 2. so your timing is really of if your only hitting 1.

also, powerdunk is a great fucking anti air, with lots of priority. you would need an aniti air with invincibility to actually beat terry out of this move. PD doesnt combo on some characters after the PC, but the RT always does if timed right, unless you combo from really far away. also RB2 terrys fire kick isnt as good as yu make it out to be. if its blocked your fucked, so its best done from a certain distance. and in combos a lot of the times either the firekick will be done from too far and the first hit wont hit, or if it does the second one doesnt, and even it that one also hits you wont be able to juggle afterwards. not even with the CS. though it IS a great BS for sure and has its uses in combos if you know when to use it.

p.s. why arent more people playing with no time just life. since we dont play these games in the arcade but in our home, there aint no arcade owners that are forcing us to play 45 second games, just curious. losing through time is one of the gayest things in a figter IMO. right after the time out draws. double K.O. is O.K. with me though.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

A time limit in fighters is a good thing because it gives you an extra way to win and adds pressure if you’re behind. Seriously, could you imagine Justin Wong vs. Steve Harrison with no timer? 1 round would take 10 minutes!

I understand that you’re not fond of defensive play in general, so this just may be an “agree to disagree” thing. I’ve always been of the opinion that games should try to accommodate as many different playing styles as possible.

-Josh

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

OK, to get more directly on-topic, in case people still don’t know, here is why EX Mary is crazy!

1. S-Power. Just perform it once, realize that it’s a throw, and you’ll see what I mean. Shit is Duck King on crack…

2. Extremely high damage from the most basic combos. Jump C, Crouching C XX dp+B -> d/b,f+C, then finish with the d+B pursuit - with only 5 hits, you’ll remove the entire first lifebar! She can also chain a crouching A/B into d+C and finish with the same special, though this doesn’t have the greatest range.

3. The least obvious element, but perhaps the most important: The Dodge. This isn’t the crappy RB2 version that hardly dodges anything - this is a true KOF-style dodge, invincible to everything except throws. It’s much better than in KOF, actually, because she can cancel it directly into a command grab. This means that even if the opponent sticks out his best poke and you perform the grab, you will throw him; there is no vulnerable period between the two moves. The grab doesn’t even have a whiff animation, so you will remain dodging if it misses.

Once the opponent figures out what’s going on, he will be forced to jump, throw you, or line shift, and all of those present you with the opportunity to dish out serious damage. Here is your answer to each of these options:

Throw: Just attack the opponent instead of dodging. The crouching A/B combo mentioned earlier is the most damaging one, but if not in range you can use Standing A/B -> C -> hcb+C.

Jump: dp+B -> d/b,f+C, pursuit. Just make sure you actually see them jump first, because this move does not hit people on the ground (hence why you need a launch to combo it). The P-Power might even work, though the motion is cumbersome.

Line Shift: These are vulnerable during their startup, and easier to punish than in RB2 since you use your standard attack buttons instead of D. If you see this, you can hit him with a standing C on reaction and combo that into b,f+B -> hcf+B -> pursuit (wait for them to stop bouncing). The P-Power will sometimes combo here, but sometimes whiff as well, so I wouldn’t recommend it.

With the damage you can get from any of these, the opponent will likely be scared back into blocking and leave himself open to dodge throws and S-Powers.

On an even plane, EX Mary may well be the best character in the game, but her greatest weakness is the line-shift. The other top-tier characters gain a clear advantage there, so her goal is to stay on top of them and keep them out of the background. With her array of offensive options, she has the best chance of anyone at pulling this off!

-Josh

[Dark_Geese]

Guys uploading Day Two Juarez, Mexico RBS matches right now…

Day Five/Six though is where things get interesting…I also turn it up some notches with Mai during that time and stop fucking around and get to business…pulling out my heavy hitter comboes…

Stay tuned…

EDIT- Last of Day Two Juarez, Mexico matches:

Set 1:

1. Dark Geese vs. Kane9998
2. Dark Geese vs. Benji
3. Dark Geese vs. Kane9998
4. Dark Geese vs. Kane9998

[media=youtube]B3KahF1UvdU[/media]

Set 2:

1. Dark Geese vs. Benji
2. Dark Geese vs. Kane9998
3. Dark Geese vs. Kane9998

[media=youtube]f9XfKTaukCk[/media]

Day Six matches when I get serious will get uploaded soon…

-Dark Geese

[Dark_Geese]

RBS Juarez casuals from Day Six when I actually stop fucking around with Mai and get serious…

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5092737&postcount=2606

And more:

[media=youtube]3U7b3qh3cvk[/media]
[media=youtube]q7X8CmFBAQ8[/media]
[media=youtube]qHScRU9SZQY[/media]

Next batch I’m putting up is me fucking around with some other characters like Kim and Sokaku from the last Day…

[FatalFuryD]

Learned more about the rb series in here with you three posting than I did in past decade playing. keep up the good work.

[Dark_Geese]

Learned more about the rb series in here with you three posting than I did in past decade playing. keep up the good work.

Sure thing…still trying to figure out who rated this thread two stars…whatever…

I laugh at that shit now…so childish.

**EDIT- ** The latest batch of Juarez, Mexico RBS casuals, the last sets I believe:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5094400&postcount=2631

[Dark_Geese]

Gonna post about Joes Line Shift attacks vs. the top tier today so stay tuned.

Also Josh about that Sokaku unblockable stuff…its not fool proof…the problem is you are still guessing…if you guess wrong you can get punished severely…

Josh- Another reason why sure thats a good gimmick with Sokaku but an expert will get around it…

Ways to get around Sokakus Unblockable/why its not game changing necessarily:
#1- All I gotta do is jump while I am in the background constantly (forward or backwards) or hop vs your D Dance of Demons Line Shift unblockable attack. Your Anti Air and all other Dance of Demon attacks will completely whiff…thus rendering that move useless if I am in the air!!!
#2- Plus if I am right next to you Mai’s Line Shift Top Down+C sweep will trade, its only effective if the person doesn’t know how to jump lol to evade it. Plus your whole strategy on this is based off just sitting in the foreground using that attack…you can’t just do that vs. experts and expect to win…they will see right through that gimmick indeed…because jumping/hopping evades it free!
#3- Notice also as Josh said his main thing is it only works in the foreground not viceversa…so thats the checkmate for it…he cant use it while in the background so you know what hes going to be using in the foreground!!! Get that jump ready!

As I find more ways I will post them up! Sure its strong but its like Line Shift…doesnt ruin the game…

And sure I’m already ontop of something else…sure in the corner with meter he gets a free mixup of S Power (which covers both planes) or Dance of Demons UB and combo into it…but only a amateur would not jump OUT of the corner the moment they get in it or get out of it so as to not fall for that corner mixup.

-Dark Geese

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

Actually played this a few times, and learned a few things.

Mai is not high tier. Nor is EX Mary, I will admit. And Krauser is strong - his line shift attacks are awesome, the total opposite of what you claim.

More on this later, have to work today!

-Josh

[Dark_Geese]

Actually played this a few times, and learned a few things.

Mai is not high tier. Nor is EX Mary, I will admit. And Krauser is strong - his line shift attacks are awesome, the total opposite of what you claim.

More on this later, have to work today!

-Josh

Krausers Line Shifts get totally beaten by Sokaku, Kim, Mai, Billy… hence the reason Krauser is not Top Tier…His Line shifts may be awesome against EVERYONE ELSE…but not against the S Class! Mai and Billy own him free in the Line Shift!!

So you are gonna have to come strong Josh!

What argument do you have that Mai is not high tier?? She has some of the best Line Shifts in the game and is more solid than even Kim…

[Spooty_Whiteboy]

What argument do you have that Mai is not high tier?? She has some of the best Line Shifts in the game and is more solid than even Kim…

You know this is a good game when the only argument for top tier is “[blank] has the best line shift!”

</sarcasm>

[Dark_Geese]

Matter of fact Josh I’m retesting Krauser now and if your argument that Krauser is strong because he beats people like Hon Fu and the others that are not in S Class’s Line Shifts…sure he does…

If it aint The S Class, Sure stuff like Krausers Top+C is BUFF…but against the S Class forget about it…

But I’m checking again right now…and he still gets his ass owned by Billy, Mai, Sokaku, Kim in the Line Shift both Top and Bottom…hence he aint top tier! The S Class owns him in the Line Shift!!!

-Dark Geese

[Dark_Geese]

You know this is a good game when the only argument for top tier is “[blank] has the best line shift!”

</sarcasm>

Why Mai is top tier-

1. Some of the best line Shifts in the game…along with Billy, Sokaku, Kim, Joe that beat most of the cast INCLUDING KRAUSER!!
2. Excellent anti airs in Rising Flame, S Power, Hop+C or Hop+B or air combo Hop/Jump forward+ B,C.
3. Abusable special that takes off time, builds meter (slowly), is safe blocked, does chip damage : multifan
4. Ryuenbu builds mad meter FAST!
5. Excellent normals like cr.a, st.a, cr.b, jump C, far st.b all have very good priority.
6. Has basic comboes that can dizzy/wall break and do one bar of damage with ease!
7. On half the cast has a free mixup of Throw into S Power/HCF+C or combo into S Power!
8. Can counter each of the S Class’s Line Shifts with her own!
9. Has abusable traps in corner that can be evaded mainly by Line Shifting (to which I can Line Shift C and put you back in it) possibly jumping at the right moment, or Break Shotting.
10. Has the tools to play defense or offense! She’s very well rounded!
11. A Blocked Hcf+C is SAFE, and at the right angle a blocked aerial down+AC is SAFE…
12. Ryuenbu at the right angle also is SAFE blocked…her best meter builder is safe!
13. Has a very easy time getting the opponent in the corner where she becomes extremely deadly due to her target wall break comboes!!
14. Has safe moves such as multifan or ryuenbu, or hcf+C or even Kachosen that can be used after a blocked Line Shift attack!
15. Doesnt have to end everything with Multifan, if the opponent has H Power can cut it short to ryuenbu to throw off the opponents Break Shot timing! (esp Kachosen from a distance, what, are you gonna Breakshot my fan and leave yourself open to be counter attacked??? :lol: :lol: )
16. Has some corner traps that you CANNOT jump out of!!! :wow:

[LWK]

A lot of stuff is easy as hell to see for break shots to, we need to keep this in mind when ranking anyone. For example, is X character so good for one exploit, when anyone can beat it? IE, if someone tries some stupid shit constantly, like pressure strings that are repeated, you can break it with a decent meter, while some strings benefit even with the potential break shots being used. I really need to go over as many probably situations as I can, and there is just so much stuff to go through.

This is a counter match game more then usual and we just don’t have enough footage of top level play to make accurate assumptions of who is god tier, I think the list isn’t bad so far, but there is just so much bullshit in this game, like so much to where its a stupid investment. Lets get those vids going! For example that weak infinite on krauser with terry.

However, Krausers cyclone is next to impossible to see, and it has ridiculous range, and he can get free set ups based on the fear it creates. Which is one of the refining factors of Hugo in 3S, once that meter is built, you better pay damn well attention to taking any action that leaves you unsafe.

So with this in mind, we figure in that Krauser is a infinite target, has pretty good range pokes, so you can go somewhere with his game of course… My worry is his far C as a edge poke might be break shot bait. His area coverage doesn’t seem that bad.

I need to go over this game more and really go through, Billy is definitely up there though, in every game of this series he is way to good.

Like the ABC string in RBFF, you can LITERALLY center your spacing game around that and tick with it constantly, the first two parts of it you don’t even need to hit, just press ABC in rapid succession… In a deeper match its return attack bait, but its a simple foundation that forces you to rush down, which is exactly what billy wants cause he hunts air easily. Thank god for line switching.

If billy has that ABC full screen poke bait, he can literally go alpha 2 style, which is bad ass. (ala, the old charlie turtlers) and in a game as fucked up as RBS, why not?