No prob. I realize I did in fact lack specifics in my last post. Fox is a fast-faller. So the fact of the matter is that Sheik has a little bit of a hard time chain-throwing Fox at low percentages. And chain-throwing is Sheik’s main game. That’s why Fox counters Sheik.
Fox needs to get in to land a hit to win. Sheik has the tools to keep him from doing that. Needles, down-smash, and well-timed up tilts neutralize his rushdown. Doing any of these things the right way gets that percentage high enough so Sheik can chain-throw Fox 'til the cows come home (come to think of it…I live in Alabama and I don’t even know what that phrase means.). That’s why Sheik counters Fox.
I don’t know where to find specifics, but I hear the thing they changed most was Shiek’s dthrow(or at least one of the most substantial things)…
And some charcters specs are different, I think Bowser is heavier or something. A couple of glitches were removed from the game, not sure which ones. I have heard it’s more balanced though.
EDIT: perhaps I should put in something concrete. Once a shiek gets Fox off (particularly with a fair because of his fastfall) he’s pretty much dead because his recovery is horrid. Probably one of Foxes harder matchups. I don’t know much about Fox myself, so I’m not really sure what his greatest weapons against a Shiek are.
I’d say one of the better ways to counter a Shiek is Peach. Turnips aren’t so important, but it’s Peach’s float game that makes it harder for a sheik. I’m not too familiar with topend play. I just know a lot of stats and can do some technical stuff. I do understand the physics though.
For instance, the wavedash is simply an airdodge into the ground. Depending on weight and traction (mostly traction) the character will slide a certain length. Of course, if you crouch cancel or run you stop sliding. Most notable is Luigi of course. Also, if you tilt the stick at more of a down slant, your wavedash will go a shorter distance.
Crouch canceling is another important aspect of the physics, you basically slide less if you are lowering your center of gravity (ie crouching). most notable with samus. Also, try doing it against Roy’s dancing blade moves. It’ll often stop it dead.
Of course, all physics are different for each character. Weight doesn’t necessarily make a charcter fall faster, and traction is always something to think about. Most interesting traction is the Ice Climbers. They seem to have better traction on “icy” surfaces.
That’s just a bunch of useless stuff that comes from knowing the game. Hope I didn’t get anything wrong. Oh, and smashboards.com is an excellent source.
I haven’t played SSBM in awhile, brings back memories. I used to post a lot on Smash Boards (until I started coming here, lol).
Anyway, my main guy is Roy (who I still say is better folks think he is…). I just like how he’s played (before anybody brings the whole “Marth is teh R0X0Rz” garbage) and I do pretty decent with him. But since I’m not a “competitive player” I never mastered L-cancel, WD and such.
BTW to those of you who still visit Smash Boards regularly, what ever happened w/the Ranking Project? Is it still ongoing or what?
…unfortunately the place is a desserted wasteland. It’ll more than likely never amount to anything.If I had my way, the RP would have been put together at smashboards – the heart of the community.
I’ve decided to try and get into this game seriously, however, I’d like to play Ness. Any tips somebody can give me? And yeah, I’m in the process of checking Smashboards now. =)
That’s awesome you decided to give the game a shot. Smash and a Cube go considerably cheap nowadays. Good luck.
Dunno much about Ness, though he used to be my main when I first started playing the game (I can’t believe what Hal did to him in the transition from the first game ;_;).
Learn to DJC (Double Jump Cancel). A technique used by Mewtwo, Peach and Ness. You simply cancel your first jump by jumping twice in a quick succession. This helps make Ness more mobile while in the air. Back Throw is a good kill move, so is back aerial…unfortunately that’s all I got >_<. You said you where checking out Smashboards, so that should be your first order of businiess. Good luck again!
Yeah, Shine Combo’s are very overrated, but they are still broken, by overrated, I mean that although it can kill extremely low at 45%, it’s extremely difficult to do, so until I start seeing the Top Fox player’s use shine combo’s for more than half the time of there gameplay and use it consistantly where they can do it on cue, much like an infinite with Magneto in MvC2, then I will see it as more of a threat.
However, it’s very powerful and it is a broken tatic that Fox can wield…but I really hate his Up Smash above all of his other moves, this is probably one of the most overpowered moves in the game, along with Peache’s downward smash and Marth’s tip shot’s. Alpha, it’s cool to see you try and pick up this game, I won’t lie to you though, your in for a tough road, as Ness wasn’t as grand as his original SSB ver. and he’s difficult to use at a high lvl, but I will definetly commend you if you can take Ness to that lvl;)…that is what I plan to do with my Link, I’m so sick of getting 5th place, as that’s the highest I’ve ever taken Link to in a tournament, I have yet to make him in the Top 3 at the tournies that I attend too, so it goes to show just how much more I must learn. :karate:
I’ve seen them, it’s great, but as I said, it’s not what makes Fox good, he’s got other things that already make him good. His shine combos are still overrated, because they aren’t implemented alot into top fox players yet, unless it’s utilized as much as Magneto’s infinites or combo reset’s, and by I mean by that, it must become Fox’s game in order for him to win, which on majority of the Fox players, it’s only very situational, it’s still a good tatic to learn though;)
If a Fox isn’t utilizing shine combos, then that Fox isn’t top. Shine is one of the best moves in the game. It’s an anti shield grab that can lead to combos. If we’d been having this discussion before TG6 last year, then you’d have a decent point. But any Fox player worth his salt today utilizes Shine combos where ever applicable (read: alot of places).
Sorry, but you need to play/watch better Foxes.
-Syn
(and stop trying to compare everything to Capcom games. it doesn’t help your arguments at all)
Wow, I must have popped someone’s bubble, show me a video where a Fox players uses the shine combo for more than 60% of his gameplay, and it better be ALOT of the Top Fox players. Yes it can lead to combos, but he has other tatics that can already lead him to combos, also I’ve watched CJ and Masahi play Fox so I guess these guys aren’t “top” especially Masashi with Fox… :rolleyes: . I’ve even watched Isai’s Fox as well, and he doesn’t go on a rampage with the shine combo. It’s still very situational. Also what’s wrong with comparing it to another fighting game to prove a point? It actually helps alot, because I’m comparing the two as to state my reason, in other fighting games, what makes a character good is something that they have which they can abuse ALOT, Yun has Genei-Jin it’s a MUST HAVE and a MUST MASTER if you choose another super art over Genei-Jin then Yun is no longer Top Tier, Misturugi in SC2, kB2 makes him very good and it’s a MUST HAVE for his gameplay, Jin in T4 it’s all about landing the JFLS on counter-hit and it’s a MUST HAVE, in GG Sol’s got his ridiculous Dust Loops that is a MUST HAVE, given they where nerfed slightly for XX Reload. If you want me to choose from something that’s not from a different fighting game, alright then;), Falco’s short hop laser spam is a MUST HAVE because it will set him up for many things, mainly to come to the enemy, and allow to use reflector’s into his spikes or else his air game with the reflector. We see this alot, as all Top Falco players spam the laser hopping pratically everychance they can get.
Foxes entire gameplay doesn’t revolve around “shine combos” which is why I signify it as overrated. You make it sound like as though I said Foxes shine combo’s “aren’t good” and “aren’t used at all”, yes, they are extremely good and they are still used. However what I’m saying is I don’t see Fox players killing everyone in 45% damage in the majority of the matches I’ve played up against, and watched, I don’t see Fox players doing shine combos ALL THE TIME, because if all Fox players utilized the Shine Combo as much as you say or give it credit for, he’d be above Shiek, instead of having Shiek above him, because the shine combo is that dangerous where if it was used that much, it would make Fox a far more dangerous character than Shiek.
Once your hit, your pretty screwed unless the player screws up, which can and will happen. The shine combos are powerful, I didn’t deny that, heck, he’d still own even if he didn’t have the shine combos just because of how fast and overpowered he is. He’s got short hop’s with neutral a, there fast and powerful. He even has the laser spamming which can rack up solid percentage, his godly Up Smash(imo one of the broken moves in the game because of it’s speed, protection, recovery, and yes damage and k.o. potential), his running attack, to how long it lags, the damage and combo potential from this, and alot of characters can easily get Up smash afterwards because they are airborne and they can’t even recover…yes, this is just alittle spectrum of his potentials and what he can do, shine combo is also one of them, but Foxes game is not built entirely on shine combos, thus the reason why I say they are overrated, I don’t overrate it on it’s power, don’t get me wrong there, I just overrate it that it isn’t used as much as people claim it to be.
It’s situational and there is not that many situations to utilize it, otherwise I’d be seeing Masashi whip shine combo’s all the time since Fox is his main character, and to how hard it is to actually shine combo correctly adds to why it isn’t utilized all the time. I’m not overrating it’s power and uses, it’s definetly there, however I’m saying it’s overrated because it’s not used into Foxes game as much as it’s being said. If you can prove me wrong, that Fox NEED’S shine combos in order to be Top Tier, and that Fox NEED’S shine combos because it is the foundation of his gameplay, meaning that a Fox player will use Shine Combo’s in almost everysingle situation given to them, I’m more than happy to change my views…don’t go all ape on me now;)
Show’s just how conceited you are, and yes, I do type alot, but I’m explaining my reasons as to why it’s overrated. To say the least, Masashi would destroy you with his Fox, and if you didn’t notice, I also mentioned Captain Jack, and he’s an excellent Fox player. I never said Foxes shine combo’s weren’t “effective” because you seem to narrow yourself to believe that’s what I’m implying, what I’m saying I’m saying is that it’s overrated because it’s only situational, because if it was used for almost the majority of the Fox player’s gameplay, wouldn’t you think shine combo’s would be displayed more in matches?
Fox would be over Shiek, if Shine Combo’s where abused tremendously, however THEY ARE NOT. The reason why I said it’s overrated because you don’t need to shine combo to win all the time, and this reads true in all the matches, download all the top Fox players, and you’ll notice how shine combo’s are used situationally only. Download a video of Magneto in MvC2 and watch how much Mag’s gameplay has the triangle jump incorporated into it, download a video of a game even you like to play, GG and watch the top Sol Players utilize the Dust Loops, why do I post these, because to show you that these are essential to there gameplan, and without it, they wouldn’t be as great, take away Mag’s triangle jump and his gameplay falls by alot because he can’t be a dominant pressure player also tons of his arsenal would be gone without it, take away Sol’s high damaging ridiculous dust loops and he’s going to go down, because this is where he can land big damage. If you took away Foxes shine combo’s he’s still a monster even without it and would still be top tier nonetheless, catch my point, I hope so.
You still have YET to PROVE to me or show me someone who uses Foxes shine combos in more than half of his gameplay…even I’m on DC+++ and I have yet to download and see a vid where shine combo’s is displayed as the #1 key to Foxes victory. Shine combo’s are still situational, you can’t spam it like Falco’s laser spamming, which is ESSENTIAL and is a MUST HAVE and MUST DO because without the short hop laser spamming Falco gameplan would fall by many notches, I’ve seen many matches where a shine wasn’t even pulled off, and if it was, it was only used at certain times, and yet the Fox player wins the victory. If you can’t comprehend what I’m saying.
^ That’s true. Most “awesome” stuff with Fox is mostly theoretical and rarely used in gameplay except in the most perfect of circumstances. I’ve seen too many recent Fox match vids to notice this.
Go on Smashboards and everybody will be like, “OMG Shine combos/infinites rulorz!1!11!!!” and they do… they just require a technical mastery that no top player has shown to me consistently (minus training mode).
