How is it a 2 frame link? +4 on hit and 3 frame start up=1 frame? I am probably wrong.
here is the data for crouching short:
3 frame start up. On start up do all moves hit on the final frame? So in this case would crouching short hit on frame 3?
+1 frame adv on block. Meaning that it is actually not safe to throw another crouching short if the first 1 is blocked? So technically could Ryu srk you of the first on is blocked and you go for another because of srk’s invince on startup?
+4 on hit.
see I’m not so sure if having the HS force you to take chip damage is a good idea? I mean from ful screen? if you don’t have a way to counter it then what? jump back perhaps? I mean I think the tracking issue is more of when they are close and they walk back or right under you and the HS whiffs. that sucks. but the HS has to have some weakness. it sucks now so I think they can make it better making it a genuine mixup with DR but I’m not sure guarantied tracking is the way. the ST HS was interesting. you could dodge it some time but it was safe if missed if memory serves.
Dunno if it needs better tracking, exogen, however would a larger hitbox fix the problem of whiffing when characters perform moves that move their character forward slightly (ie-Guiles cHK or even cLK)?
I also think it should properly autocorrect when you get crossovered. I hate when bison jumps backwards, then proceeds to whiff an obvious hit HS, just because the opponent was in the process of crossing me over.
I think Soviet makes a lot of good points actually. It serves your argument to say that anyone who makes recommendations is inept, but one thing doesn’t correlate to the other. That these complains are illegimitate is your opinion and is not necessarily more valid. (Wouldn’t it be nice if your argument was always more airtight just because it happened to be yours?). If Street Fighter 5 features changes in Bison’s character which even out or improve gameplay, did the designers committ an error? Are you saying that any and every conceivable tweak of bison has to equal an unfair advantage, since he’s already perfect now? And if he’s not perfect, how are tweaks “nonsense”?
Also, for example, if you need to play w/ Bison for 200 hours to stay even with a guy who’s played ryu for 85, then there are problems with the character and the game. If you’re having to work much harder (read: greater precision requirements, more strategizing, better timing, harder button combinations, having a set of moves that means you’re often being dictated to – which requires more concentration [a finite resource] and creates more chances for something to go wrong) than someone using another character, then there are problems with the character to whatever extent greater demands are placed on Bison players. Whether the top 3% of Bison users can beat the rest of the field is irrelevent, and whether they can do it with the same amount of gameplay time is unproven. Gameplay fails if it’s an uneven or unfair experience for the majority of mid-level players, such that a Good Bison, more often than not, loses to a player using another character of equal or lesser skill.
Finally, are you willing to admit that there’s some relationship between the frequency a character is used and a general assessment of the character’s attributes? (And if not, what then determines why more people use one charater more than another?)
If people played just for mastery alone, then you’d see a more even distribution among all characters, but this is not so (Why? Because generally people value winning moreso than difficult yet challenging losses). It also stands to reason that if all characters are spread out along a continuum from perceived worst to perceived best, that more players would gravitate to the “better” characters (when people are free to choose anything from a given set, where cost is the same, they generally select the perceived best). There’s a reason Bison players are rare, and I feel that those of us who do play him do so because his moves are unique and interesting, his backstory is cool, because of his look and feel, and not because he’s exceedingly practical or rarely frustrates.
wonderful above post. very good points.
on the subject of the HS again, yes perhaps having better hit boxes is the answer. I mean what we want from the HS isn’t a spam happy godly move that can never be avoided but just to tweak it so it isn’t so easily avoided and even avoided on accident so much. we want it to hit in close range when we are right next to the guy and not just whiff and the like. if it did this then it’s risk reward would be far more balanced because we would have more chances to use it.
we just want more opportunity to use it and I think that is a good idea to give it better hit boxes without adjusting it’s tracking or speed ratios.
yet again I think we all agree the PC needs to be faster because it is near useless now. having that would be a great way to punish people who jump back if you have a charge and generally just rush out from full screen as bison has always been able to do in ST or SFex or anything other then the alpha style bison.
also I have something of great importance.
bison depends alot of his crossup MK and even HP or HK but mostly MK. the MK needs more block stun because when you try and combo into it depending on if you land meaty or not you run a chance of reversals. bison needs to be able to combo or tic throw from this point not worry about baiting people who mash reversals. give his crossup MK more block stun and problem is solved.
not to derail the thread or anything, but i think my IQ went up by reading this post.
That’s exactly what a 2 frame link is. It would be 1 frame if the cr. short was +3.
Actually my complaints were legitimate, as many other Bisons (even high level Bisons) have stated similar opinions. I am by no means the ultimate Bison, nor am I a shitty Bison either though. I’d say top 25% of all Bisons. I play bison constantly, and while I am by no means perfect, I understand his moves (pros and cons) well enough to point out what works and what is broken and needs fixing.
I think almost EVERYBODY here can agree that PC (not EX) and HS need tweaking. I don’t want uber moves, or win buttons. But when you have a move NOT get used aside from a gamble which would likely pay off with a SK instead, the move needs fixing. Look at Ryu, as an example. His DP has uses in EVERY match, his fireball is amazing, and even his tatsu (ex and normal) has uses. PC does NOT have uses, aside from EX. HS is too easy to counter at high levels (or even not at high levels), with such simple ideas as cHP, and certain normals that move your character far enough forward to cause it to miss (yet again, larger hitbox would fix this).
That being said, my complaints were that EVERY character in this game should be a contender. It’s lame that the best we can hope for as Bisons is for our opponent to fall for mindgames, when you have other characters who can throw out a SRK->FADC->Ultra (or something similar) and kill you easily when you’re down to half health (ryu, sagat, etc).
My suggestions are minor improvements to OBVIOUSLY flawed parts of Bisons gameplay (HS, PC, and DR). The only other option would be to nerf the other top tier characters (also a valid option, although it may still not help enough).
wow, great advice…i NEVER would have thought to use that…cough
most people I play against MIGHT fall for empty DR’s, but usually they’re ready to tech it. And as for throwing out a HS after, well, they’ll STILL FUCKING BLOCK IT NUMBNUTS. Which can lead to punishment vs certain characters (good Sagats can punish a blocked HS with ease).
if i’m getting this correctly, most people complain that their HS’s aren’t hitting, and that they can get SRK’d out of people who just walk back right?
IMO the headstomp should work that way, but not in the way intentioned in sfiv. the recovery on HS is a bit too gracious for the opponent, and it should be tweaked in such a way that the opponent should be able to punish if it whiffs, but give them a bit more tricky timing with which to do it. i’d say make it so that anything that’s 4 frames will hit, but anything else needs to be blockable. basically, no sweeps unless it’s on reaction/preemptive, you should be able to tech throws, but things like jabs (which lead to big combos for most people anyway) should hit
in addition to 1, make the empty devil’s reverse a complete mindgame tool. the if i do empty devil’s reverse then when i land there should be 0 recovery.
i’d also like to be able to move a bit faster than usual for the headstomp followup and a devil’s reverse
if i’m on the left side of the screen, and i do a headstomp, and i keep pressing right, the followup should have bison’s hands pointing left. this has been in every game, don’t know why it isn’t here now.
4.a) HP devil’s reverse should be a complete crossover move. i should be able to do a backwards devil’s reverse when i’m far enough into the devil’s reverse. 2 should still apply when i hit the ground.
No, I agree that it SHOULD work that way, however the problem is when characters you are fighting can simply cHP it without any chance of trade, or when they trade with an exHS they don’t get knocked down (this makes Sagat battles SOOOO annoying), or how some characters (chun Li and guile for instance) can move forward with crouch attacks and it ends up whiffing them by millimeters. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Walking backwards or jumping back and attacking SHOULD be able to defeat it.
I’m also leaning towards the different buttons strengths (lk,mk,hk) having a more noticable effect as well (ie-faster movement, or different arcs, etc)
Dunno about ZERO recovery, but the recovery time could be a little bit better. Whiffed HS should also have the same recovery though.
Agreed. Crossup for the DR and Skulldriver is VERY much needed. It’s way too easy to not get hit by a skulldriver (not to mention the timing/hitbox on it is gay, so many times you throw it out and your fists pass through your opponent and you eat pain).
Exogen, EPy, thanks for the props.
Hopefully we’re not all just shouting into the void. It’d be nice to know that Capcom developers are getting some feedback from the gaming community. It’s why I think threads like this aren’t wasted efforts. Certainly if people say nothing, ever, it doesn’t help, then again, believing that developers are scouring the net for threads like this one is a little optimistic. Who knows, it’s interesting to discuss anyhow.
Anyhow for my part, I’d say SIMPLE things like increasing his priority or making his warp less vulnerable (maybe halfway between the way it is now and Dhalsim’s) would be a nice improvement. And better AA, for sure. On this note, it’s fine to say I should be able to warp to safety in time, every time, but why should we have to when so many characters simply push a button, not only to thwart a jumper, but because of the ease of this defense, pre-emptively DETER that kind of attack entirely? (Can you say Ryu?)
I haven’t read through this entire thread, but I’m sure it’s all been covered already.
I just put this up so there wouldn’t be fifty “i want better pc” or “i want better head stomp” threads. Plus most other characters had similar threads.
[quote]
Anyhow for my part, I’d say SIMPLE things like increasing his priority or making his warp less vulnerable (maybe halfway between the way it is now and Dhalsim’s) would be a nice improvement. And better AA, for sure. On this note, it’s fine to say I should be able to warp to safety in time, every time, but why should we have to when so many characters simply push a button, not only to thwart a jumper, but because of the ease of this defense, pre-emptively DETER that kind of attack entirely? (Can you say Ryu?)
Warp should be able to actually go full screen, regardless of where you are.
His neutral jMP should be an AA instead of the crap that it is now. Even a weak punch that is moderately fast and straight forward is better than your ballet swan dive (aka the Ken Ultra Punisher)
what the hell are the uses for any of bison’s neutral moves aside from roundhouse? lord knows I ever use them. Either there are things these tools can do or they’re useless and there’s good reason why I never see players use them including myself.
what do you guys use these neutral moves for, and if they’re not as good as I suspect, what can they potentially be updated with? Soviet already contributed a better neutral jumping mp, how about fierce or various kicks?
neutral fierce isn’t that bad but that n. jp. mp is atrocious.
neutral jump lp mp hp are the sexiest moves bison has.
/sarcasm
I have to disagree here Laudanum. bison has some of the best pokes in the game. standing roundhouse and standing MK alone are very good moves. you just have to use them in a poking fashion. I use them mostly to shut my opponents down and box them into my mind games.
now as for the issue of this discussion reaching capcom I know exactly who to send the link to this thread to.
everyone do the same. send it to Sven on capcom-unity.com
I know we all love exHS -> exSD, but should regular HS combo into SD?? Would that be too powerful? Considering exHS -> exSD doesn’t do THAT much damage, especially for 2 bars.
No, never.
IMO, cr.mkxxlk.HS
that’s a mouthful
I think EX HS should be like SF2 HS where he doesnt goes to the moon before he hits you.