I hate seeing that stupid “just get better” argument.
basically all it is is an ad hominem fallacy for one but worse then that it is an attempt to not deal with arguments being made.
take bison’s garbage PC. are you saying that it should NOT get fixed because it doesn’t suck? if so where is the counter argument? if your saying that you can win with him regardless because even though a character is low tier does not mean you can’t win? if so, that’s fine, but remember it has nothing to do with arguments of how his tier status ought to be elevated.
you also ignore the fact that SF4 is clearly not a balanced game and therefore criticism and brainstorms of how to fix it are perfectly valid.
simply saying"get better" should be the mantra by default and has no place in the face of valid tier discussion and argument centering around solutions.
I for one never claimed to be a fantastic player but I know I don’t suck. right now I just cracked 6,000 games and my win rate is 77% and I pretty much only play with bison. YET here I am “complaining” along with the rest of them. partially why I think I have decent skills is because I am adaptive and DON’T just fall into dumb patterns or even the same really good patterns because all patterns have weaknesses. YET again, here I am.
so please lets not ASSUME that everyone here is here because they CAN’T WIN with bison, lets not assume that all of us here are trash players and know nothing about the game. and maybe if we follow that line of thought then we can focus on what MIGHT be valid criticism of the character that could lead to (assuming capcom does give a sh!t) new developments and better balence.
additionally I am ALL FOR tactics and trying to work with what is available.
To clarify, I wasn’t attempting to say “just get better” in my post, or inferring any of the questions you posed. I was simply agreeing with DS’ post and writing my opinions on it.
How am I ignoring the fact that SF4 is not a balanced game? Balance is relative to the player. One person might think the game is perfect, and another might think that the game is completely broken. I for one don’t acknowledge that the game is balanced or imbalanced; I just try to win.
Cool, you have the right to complain about stuff, but don’t try to put words into my mouth. I never claimed anyone was a crappy player outright, and I never “assumed” that the users in the Bison forums are trash players or they CAN’T WIN with Bison.
Anyways, I’ve already posted what I think Bison would benefit from the most: a faster cr.HP and another way (from the ground) to land his Ultra.
I’m sorry. maybe I was to harsh. I’m just tired of seeing responses to the nature of “get better” or “you just aren’t playing it right” or what ever. all those things are vague and without any push. furthermore they don’t even deal with the claim and argument this or that person might be making.
as for the issue of balence. it should be evident by this point that some characters are clearly better then others overall. hell even capcom admits sagat is way to strong. and I think we can all see ryu has no real draw backs. that is clear evidence of imbalance based on those two alone.
I often find myself hating on dictator after losing a few rounds to decent ryu’s/sagats who knows the match-up,
especially if I’ve been landing pokes and mind-games just to lose to FADC+ultra + obscene reversal SRK spam.
His risk/reward component is way skewed.
As much as I love the psychoscience, love watching neurosis, kim1234, BBH, and jago and the likes beast on jap casuals…
I just don’t see how there could ever be a daigo/mago, or even jwong in terms of consistency if they were to main dictator.
I don’t think the argument here is that dictator is completely "bad"
I think it’s just the inconsistencies which hurt.
I think one of the reasons why there’s more bitching than the claw forum, is because claw is close to completely broken… whereas dictator is full of potential… it’s like there’s sill hope for him yet.
I have a feeling that if Bison had a way to combo into his Ultra, then there would be little (if any at all) debate over his potential to make it higher up in the rankings.
Aside from that, I wouldn’t mind seeing a different command input for his teleport. Maybe HCF + KKK/PPP for his forward teles, and HCB + KKK/PPP for his back teles? What do you guys think about that?
you know I have been thinking about this as well in regards to bringing back his banish. it would help with projectiles and would be nice to be able to combo into a SK or ultra.
yeah I think that sums up the issues. no one on the side of dictators faults is saying that bison sucks just that he needs to tinkering and that he isn’t properly balanced.
one of the main issues with bison against DP characters is that there is always this feeling that it is not a true guessing game that works both ways. for instance, take a bison mirror match. lets say I just lk, SK’d you and you blocked. at this point I might throw a c. lk, to lk sk link but if you anticipate this you might do a lk sk and go right over my c. lk, however if I anticipate that you will do that or perhaps jump altogether I might throw a s. hk or if I think your throwing the sk I could do a s. mk. I might even do a DR depending on if I think you might neutral jump but that would be more risky, or unless I knew you had a charge as might do an EX HS.
the point is that it is a guessing game.
no as much with a shoto or anyone with a DP because it snuffs anything except an EX HS or just plain turtling. but people with really good attention to details know frames and don’t get confused easily leaving the window for deception very small and the advantage squarely on the side of the person with the DP.
it is this uphill battle that needs correcting. this is no doubt why shoto’s have always been good characters. it comes down to that invulnerability. but if there was some way around this where bison had something say the normal HS beating out a DP at close range or something then it would work better because even DR mixup can be still difficult due to that narrow window where as the shoto can just sit back and play on reaction mostly and the punishment rules in his favor, especially ryu. off and also on the subject. they should really take away ryu’s LP dp ultra setup. good god just give him the jumping mp setup and leave it at that.
anyway that is why I said it would be good to see start-up invulnerability for the PC with faster speed. at very least faster PC. this would help the match-up by keeping the flow going and forcing the person defending to actually have to think about what counter to use just like bison has to think about what move to throw out in order to hit. the guessing game should go both ways.
the failure of SF4 in my eyes is that characters that are very defensively oriented in a game that is heavily defensively oriented are given more rewards. reverse this trend somewhat and you would have a faster paced more mind game oriented game and most impotent it would be more balanced.
Basically…to anyone who ever bothered to play ST…Bison’s like he was in ST just no TOD combos. Bison is an offensive character, in a mostly defensive game. He’s still a threat but he just doesn’t make people afraid like he did in ST. In ST, if you got crossed up, that was your ass.
Also, shoto’s are good b/c they’re basic characters. Can play defensively and offensively very well. Where as Bison is an overly offensive character. DP’s aren’t the problem imo. My problem is that there’s really no reason not to do a DP in this game b/c of FADC. Me and my friend were talking about all these new games that have come out along with SF4(KOF12, BlazBlue) where the creators have stripped them down to it’s most basic levels. The problem with this is that it’s started to get me thinking in the “why not?” sense. There’s no reason to not DP on wake up if you’re opponent’s beside you if you have 2 bars for FADC. Worst case scenario is you get blocked and you fadc back so you can’t get punished(yes I know it’s not THAT shallow and it’s not quite that cut and dry). Bison doesn’t have that “why not” move(at least not in the same sense as shotos).
All in all…to you guys who haven’t played ST, play it. Once you play that game and see some of the BS in there, you’ll stop complaining so much about SF4. I mean…at least you don’t strait up lose at the character select screen.
exogen: Against most characters after knee press Bison has more options because even though the move leaves the opponent at +0. Bisons options are j.Forward, st.Roundouse, cr.Short>tick throw, cr.Short>knee press, knee press, Focus, dash forward, or just wait. All of these options can be beat but there are just so much to choose from that you are more likely to be correct. What makes your options less are when the opponent can just do uppercut into ultra. Thats when you will have to decide to just wait, jump and hit them in the back of the head, or maybe use some Focus opptions. But thats a flaw in their character more than Bison. So instead of giving him something too good they could just fix those characters.
deadontime: In ST Bison had no defensive options because his AAs were not very good and there was just so much block stun and big throw ranges that some things were just guaranteed. The mixups in that game were just so damaging that Bison had to be offensive or loose.
In SF4 you can play a defensive Bison because you can break throws without taking damage and just block without having to worry too much. That and with Bisons 3frame low, knee press, and sometimes Ex psycho he has the ability to play defensive.
Continued because cell phone wont let me do too many letters
I disagree that this game is a defensive game. It’s clearly a reversal game. This is a small distinction, but I think it has to be made. Think about Ryu and Sagat, and zang. Why are they the best characters in the game? One of the reasons is that they have very powerful reversal options that do a lot of damage. Obviously, this is not the only reason that they hare top tier but let’s go down the list (in no particular order) and take a look at these characters from this ONE perspective:
sagat/ryu - combo from invul move AND fast normals into ultra.
boxer - yes, combo from his best normal into ultra. reversal ex dash punches aren’t bad either, ex dash upper can set up for ultra too.
zangief - reversal 1 frame ultra, ppp lariet that dominates a lot of things. Add in the jump cancelling to spd/ppp and you get unthrowable reversals.
rufus - ex messiah can set up to ultra. random normal can set up into ultra (not just fast). snake strike is a very powerful AA reversal (can this set up ultra if he is facing the corner?)
akuma - buffered ultra from c mk is pure win. plus, his reversal teleport is the best in the game. At the very least, from his reversal srk he can do hp shaku which isn’t bad damage wise. 300+ damage combos from random normals.
chun - reversal sbk doesn’t do very much damage, but knocks you clear away. reversal ex legs can set up ultra, she can also combo into ultra from c lk. ultra can go through a lot of things and is almost a full screen punish, if not full screen.
Obviously, this is a very shallow description of the characters but I guess my point is not that this game is completely defensive, like, say, the alpha series compared to the marvel series, but that it’s heavily based on the moment where you tip the scales from offense to defense. The characters who can’t do that very well tend to have a harder time in this game compared to the characters who do this well. Lockdown, zoning, rushdown, and other traditional fighting game concepts are all tools to either enable or disable this pivotal moment which has gotten so much emphasis in this game.
Dictator does not have a definitive “omg” moment when he change the flow of the round, which is why he’s not up there w/ the big boys. However, his options allow him to do the more traditional stuff that will hopefully prevent a tipping of the scales in the opponent’s favor, or force a mistake that will allow him to land ultra (yeah, right :p)
fwi Chun isnt that great. Her Ex legs>ultra is very specific and doesnt work on all characters uless they are in the corner. The fact it goes through things is pretty good. Ex bird kick is easy to bait and you can get a full combo on her.
Against Gief try and think of ways to get them to lariett and block it so you can ultra before the second hit.
What makes the game so defensive is that when a character has meter the other characters options become limited and the player has to be aware of whats going on. When they have an ultra even more so better to turtle up. You dont want to get hit willy nilly by Blanka do you? that thing hurts.