Seriously, Kasumi worse than King? King, the girl with horrible ground normals but a nice BnB. That I disagree with completely.
Jump back qcf+P, way better than the ground version, and makes for a runaway tactic. How many good aerials does King have, j.D/E/and maybe C? Kasumi has j.B which is a great air to ground. j.D has great crossup potential, j.E has a similar concept, j.A is a good air to air. Her BnB is just as damaging. I find her sweep to be a lot more reliable, far C is a good high priority poke when you learn it’s range (though a lot of higher chars beat that distance). close C is very fast (and cannot be ducked under even though it looks like it). King’s fireball’s are good for a couple of attempts at zoning, otherwise not reliable. It’s portrayed as if King is superior when she is not.
w00t, I’ve been wanting to put Kula above Gato for a while, but was afraid of the riots I would start. I’ll admit, I like the concept of your list (L+ to denote how many tiers they jump with LDM). Kensou is another one of those chars I was unsure of so I threw him somewhere to get feedback, though if you remember my old campaign, I never really thought he could hang with the High tier well (in terms of matchups, he has a superb set of normals).
Great, now you are putting EX Kyo above Gato. What about him is so great? The ult juggles? High Damage BnB’s? Can actually combo in DM’s? Whatever it is, is it enough to put him past even Ozzy? If it is that, then I’m
Placements I disagree with: Kasumi, Ash, Maxima (should only go down to upper mid).
I’m not 100% confident in my list, I’m open to debates. But I will remind people I don’t have knowledge of every char, so if I place em ridiculously low I need feedback. Kensou, I have only 1 player to go off of (Sieclayton) and I haven’t ran by much footage of Kensou being played, and if he is, played well enough to convince me he’s High tier (I wanna believe he is, but I always have that 2nd thought)
Oh yeah…Concerning the tier lists, are you guys taking into account of the fact that some shit has been banned for some characters? Like Oz’s 10finite, Command grabbing someone on the way in from a dead partner switch, and other crazy shit?
There’s a bunch of Gato and Oswald on the previous page posted by KrazyKone, but you have to be registered on Nicovideo to view them. I don’t know if you are or not.
WTF, I linked the wrong post earlier about Kasumi. Fixed.
Now I mean no offense but…Um, the_judge why are you making a tier list when you admit you are not knowledgeable enough about character attributes and such to be qualified to do so? That does not make any sense. FYI, you do not simply put characters low on a tier list because “you don’t know about them”.
And you expect us to take this seriously? Much less think you hold any validity? Save for a more official list from Arcadia or something like that, how about we just go along with Shiki’s list. Its makes a hell of a lot more sense and furthermore, I’m certain he can back up all of his placements with explanations and some evidence even if its not 100% correct.
Be nice, Tech. I agree with a lot of things on Judge’s list. No one person can know absolutely EVERYTHING about EVERY character, which is why every tier list is just an opinion.
I can’t claim to know everything about everyone, either. However, I do like to think that I’ve watched, played, won, and lost more XI tournament matches than 99% of the people here.
A lot of people are also very hard to rank, especially characters like Ash and Hayate. Ash has potential with his LDM, but the amount of skill and time necessary to master the combos and THEN learn how to find practical set-ups for them in a real match is just far beyond my level.
Hayate dominates some matchups and loses badly in others.
I think non-leader Gato is slightly overrated, which is why I put non-leader Gato below EX Kyo and Leader Gato above EX Kyo. A lot of characters can actually keep Gato out, it’s just that with Leader Gato, he only needs one little opening to do 60-70%.
Without his LDM, his damage output is good, but not nearly as scary. As such, his problems against a few lower-tier characters are a little more glaring.
Clark, Kensou, and Ralf are good examples of lower-tier characters that can give Gato a hard time without his braindead LDM.
I put Kula above Gato because she isn’t nearly as meter-reliant as Gato. Her BnB can do 40% without meter, and due to her superior speed and braindead-priority DP, I’d say non-meter Kula has the edge over Gato, her only con being her inferior defense rating.
Comparing XI King to XI Kasumi is like comparing crap to vomit, though. In the end, what does it matter? They both are slow and weak with janky mobility, bad normals, and worthless supers. At least King can attempt to zone, although it doesn’t really work well.
Okay, I’m not knowledgeable of 2 chars and my list is 100% invalid? I pipe up youtube to find some matches on Kensou and Silber to appease you, I come back and apparently Shiki’s list is better in every way. Though our lists differ in few places, and I only strongly disagree on 2 placements, Kasumi and Ash (I take back Maxima because where I think he should be [upper mid] is hardly moved from where he has him)
Okay, so Shiki can also back up all 45 chars, considering he can hardly post a good point on Kasumi. If you want my opinion (which you don’t), she’s right next to King. King has projectiles, and DM’s over Kasumi. Not to mention those DM’s do little damage. BnB’s do about the same damage, both are stuck on mediocre aerials, and sub par ground game. Yet King will never be spoken of as a bad char, it wasn’t till Shiki’s post that it’s seems genarally accepted that Kasumi sux.
It seems I’m to be condemned over seeking info. Shiki is to never change that list. I will change mine, at proper discretion.
EDIT: lol at my sense of offensive jokes
EDIT2: Shiki I apologize if you took anything offensively, wasn’t directed at you.
King and Kasumi are both pretty bad. There isn’t a huge amount of difference between C and D tier, either. Anyone below C+, is essentially not worth using ever.
…What? There was no hostility in my post, man. I said I meant no offense; I was being frank. I didn’t call your list crap but I did find some of your placements extremely questionable.
My thing is this: you should be pretty confident when you make a tier list about a game. You should also be able to provide some sort of basis for every placement there besides “I don’t know much about them”. I didn’t say know everything about every character or play them at an advanced level. I just wonder why are you making a tier list when you admit you still have things to learn about some characters. I wasn’t angry (why does everyone always think I’m angry? Is it the way I type? Seriously I’m not) or thinking badly of you at all.
I did NOT say your list was completely wrong or invalid nor did I say let’s worship shiki’s list or it completely overshadows yours. I simply respect his knowledge of the game, know him well enough that he usually has backing for his placements, etc. I did not mean to sound nasty or put you down in anyway, shape or form; you’re overreacting.
The thing that got me (and i apologize if I didn’t make it aware) after I was told I placed em too low, I edited my list and put em back up (actually had to edit it again, stupid new SRK)
I then proceed to turn on the ps2, sit in training mode and make their shining points apparent to me, then I proceed to hunt for youtube matches, which was hard to do in KOF considering you can’t just type in character names and get good footage of them. I literally went through DG’s library to come up unfruitful. (I found all of like 2-3 matches of Silber, and they’re still sub-par)
Oh and a couple of big factors why my earlier post was so offensive. 1.) I’m personally tired of the game, been playing since 05, still don’t consider myself a good player, but I hate that I know so much of this KOF. 2.) I’m actually very sour that in the KOF forums recently, anyone who posts any kind of intelligent material seems to get followers (ex: Emil/Asian nut huggers, DG’s disciples). I was starting to categorize you there (once again I’ll apologize)
However I will look into a list explaining my placements. Though it might not be necessary for the High/Top tiers (Our lists vary in specific placements, but the same names are in the high tier list)
If you really want to look for good matches I’d look at Nico video or maybe ask Krazykone to find some. Actually Affinity, for all her fanboyism posts linked a decent match on YT with both Silber and jazu up in FGD. Lemme go get it.
I’d love to link my match vids of Silber; he’s one of my mains, but I’d hardly consider myself that great at the game, especially for the purposes of tier discussion.
EDIT: [media=youtube]XOlRTaxMTR0[/media]
EDIT #2: If you guys thought I was only the only one trying out Arrange mode, think again… [media=youtube]xq3VoA-1Nto&feature=related[/media]
I don’t think that’s arranged mode–they’re just using the console characters.
I base the belief that it’s not arranged based on the fact that Duck actually was able to be worth a crap in that match.
EDIT: Seriously though, after watching it more carefully, Duck is using some of his Real Bout strings that were taken out in Arranged mode
all these people saying jayzu is A tier… yet i don’t see any jayzu players actually using him to the fullest… they all finish combos with qcb.C… where hcb.B is what they should be using… not only does it lead to the most damage if u finish with rdp.D… with d~u.C u get a solid KD… with hj.D u get a free cross-up mix-up… also u get to combo into his DMs & LDM without super cancelling… AND if u r anywhere within a super jump distance away from the corner when u connect hcb.B ur LDM will do all 3 hits which takes off about 80%… so as Leader jayzu has the highest damaging LDM in the game in the corner…
and return of shiki… i like ur tier list… and some things i can’t comment on cause i don’t have any experience on it like geese, mr. big or janet’s tier… but i do think Kim and Clark as leader is just as good compared to K’ as leader…
Considering Jyazu’s horrible health and superb zoning skill, cr.C at max range (which is how I use it) hcb+B won’t connect. Considering I (and possibly other Jyazu players) don’t ever wanna be in range where they can start striking with normals. For a punishing combo, yes use hcb+B then d~u+P, to give you some options on their wakeup. Like crossing up with j.D (these aren’t easy to setup as Jyazu has a large jump) I’d much rather jump back and start zoning again, where I can control the matchup better.
I’m very far from being a top notch Jyazu player, but observe some of my horrible horrible matches against a friend (warning stick mashing ahead, only the first 2 matches)
[media=youtube]R6zYiFEu73g[/media]
I was maybe in 2-3 situations where I could have used hcb+B for the whole duration of Jyazu being in. Also notice how I particularly use qcb+C only midscreen, and when I’m sure they are just about dead. I’ll say that back then I was probably unaware that I could have used hcb+B, d~u+C for solid damage that left us both in a position I would have the advantage in. qcb+C is just a stupid move with somewhat high damage output, but one advantage it has is it’s QS’able (though the timing is strict for the incoming char’s aerial to hit)
Jyazu’s LDM is very very good. It can be used somewhat like Terry’s. 50% for 2 hits (no combo) 70% for all 3 (no combo). Though it’s not recommended that you use the LDM if you’re enemy is in the corner. Strictly prohibited to midscreen or the distance between the corner and midscreen (where the camera is scrolled slightly away from the corner)
Fun Fact: If you only get the 1st hit of Jyazu’s LDM, and the 2nd doesn’t connect, if they roll forward the 3rd will automatically hit them.
Jyazu is put in High and Upper Mid tier because of his zoning abilities. If some of his obvious weaknesses weren’t there (low health, lackluster defense and normals, huge jump interval) he could possibly run in the tops.
But then why is it using the arranged version of “Select Circumstances”?
Will you cut the crap already?
You know what, you’re right everyone sucks with Jazu except you. So instead of talk, how about you show us your master level Jazu videos with you getting all of those nasty combos and top level strats?
brb to check later, gonna go use hcb.B on people and get my shit pushed in because it tends to fail midscreen and the recovery frames are through the roof when used up close.
ok i know he isn’t ur combo type character but all i’m saying is that IF u r in range and u got a combo going do the best u can… and y never do his LDM in the corner? cr.B, s.C xx hcb.B …walk back LDM does 80% in the corner…
As was said, the hcb+K is too slow to combo from most ranges. Also, in an actual match judging the proper distance at which the LDM will do all 3 hits can be very tricky. It can be worth it to go for it if it will win you the match. Personally I use Jyazu’s LDM more often in defensive ways, so when I run Jyazu leader I rarely have the meter to active do a juggle combo into LDM.