The low tier fury

[Overworld]

Um, did you write the Secret? If so, my mother wants her money back.

Anyhow, I play low tier, so I don’t know if that invalidates what you say or not, but I certainly am not trying to make anyone feel bad.

Skill is not inherent. Skill comes from practice. Always.

Think about what you’re saying here. On one hand you have an argument against idealism. On the other, you have one for its opposite, pragmatism: practical consequences or real effects.

You’re saying that unless something is put into practice, it shouldn’t be an ideal that’s strived for. But reality itself is an idea to you, him, me, and everyone. So what you’re basically saying is that we shouldn’t try to live our ideals. Basically, you’re a cynic.

Well, I think living in either camp entirely is a bad idea. Ideals are worth striving for, but without a firm footing in reality, regardless of the subjective nature of such, ideals hold little weight. You can’t affect change if you don’t understand what you’re changing.

Everyone channels their ideas through action. Sometimes those actions have good effects (results), and sometimes bad ones (consequences). However, everyone must admit that what is good to one person can be bad for another… so avoiding action (no matter how trivial) to avoid a consequence is something that only you determine… unless you allow someone else’s idea of what is wrong affect your perception of the world.

Conversely, such thought channeled in a social vacuum is not primed to work socially. You have to have an understanding of your surroundings. I play low tier characters, so I certainly don’t care that someone percieves me as having little chance to win. I’m just working off percentages, odds, statistics. So I’m just saying, because of the data we have, a Chun Li is more likely to win this upcoming Final Round tournament, than say, a Remy.

Saying, thinking, or deciding not to play (or participate in anything for that matter) just because you don’t have a good or clear example of how-to begs the question: How did the people that first used top tier ever learn to? And why did they?

There is a very real difference in when people first used top tier. They were in essence, channeling in a vacuum, without knowledge of anything that came before. In such a state, suddenly all characters were viable. Now, a decade later, the knowledge base is different, and channeling in a vacuum no longer works, as you have to consider the field you are playing in.

You say you’re not part of the scene. Registering an account, having an avatar, reading threads and passing judgment on posts sure makes you look like a part of the scene. What, were you just “passing through” during the time that you decided to do all of that?

Purely semantics, I say I’m not part of the “scene” as I do not play Marvel, so that’s why my arguement is more 3S based. As far as participating in the discourse, I suppose you could say, yes, that I am participating in the scene. I merely used “scene” to say I don’t play Marvel competitively.

You’re just a person who wants to make people feel bad about what they’re doing because you feel like life is pointless. Something happened to you, and as of yet, you haven’t dealt with it. I suggest you deal with it instead of pitifully trying to make people feel bad. Praise God, see a shrink or something.

So now I’m a masochist? I play low tier because I want to make myself feel bad? I don’t see how saying Yun has more chance to win a tournament than Hugo is making anyone feel bad. It’s opinion, if someone says their sports team is better than yours, do you really feel poorly? I did not think it that serious.

Now I know, because you’ve read three of my posts, you assume you have a great handle on the type of person I am. You certainly have zeroed in on what flaws you think I have. To make such assertions really trivializes and generalizes about me personally, and that I find, is much more offensive than saying Chun has a greater probablity of winning a tournament than Remy.

Anyhow, I’m off to Final Round, to play some Remy, heh.

[True_Grave]

I guess what I mean is that 3S has like 17-19 characters, and 3 are top in America, Makoto is top in Japan, and only a couple of other characters see serious play. It’s pretty bad if nearly half the cast is not used seriously, or not viable to be used in tournies.

Thats nothing compared to MVC2. 56 characters and only about 6 are used. Thats a whopping 50 characters not even bothered with.

Thats why I like the idea of low-tier tournaments: No sent, cable, mags, storm, doom, or IM(plus no AA assists for capcom, BH, or Psylock allowed).

Then it opens up a whole new world of possibility’s for MVC2, as opposed to the stagnant, predictable 4-6 character selection.

[4649]

Zaza for president
<3<3<3
…no homo

[Joe_Zaza]

Um, did you write the Secret? If so, my mother wants her money back.

I don’t understand this.

Anyhow, I play low tier, so I don’t know if that invalidates what you say or not, but I certainly am not trying to make anyone feel bad.

Good.

Well, I think living in either camp entirely is a bad idea. Ideals are worth striving for, but without a firm footing in reality, regardless of the subjective nature of such, ideals hold little weight. You can’t affect change if you don’t understand what you’re changing.

Sure you can. It’s called subconsciousness… and individually, it’s rarely confronted. I will always agree with the idea of a synthesis between opposing viewpoints… but sometimes a “firm footing” is a little too firm. If you know what I mean.

Conversely, such thought channeled in a social vacuum is not primed to work socially. You have to have an understanding of your surroundings. I play low tier characters, so I certainly don’t care that someone percieves me as having little chance to win. I’m just working off percentages, odds, statistics. So I’m just saying, because of the data we have, a Chun Li is more likely to win this upcoming Final Round tournament, than say, a Remy.

Thought in an individual vacuum isn’t primed to work individually, either. You have to have an understanding of your self. I think breakinmunkie said it best: vice versa.

As to the comments about data, I’ve already addressed that issue. No matter what your thesis is… and no matter how big your sample of information to support that thesis is, it will be a limited thesis… unless you affect it yourself. All subjective theories are self-fulfilling prophecies.

There is a very real difference in when people first used top tier. They were in essence, channeling in a vacuum, without knowledge of anything that came before. In such a state, suddenly all characters were viable. Now, a decade later, the knowledge base is different, and channeling in a vacuum no longer works, as you have to consider the field you are playing in.

I’ve already said this, but because you probably missed it, I’ll say it again:

There is a missing premise here. One that I don’t agree with. It’s “I’m playing to win.” Without that, I don’t have to consider anything.

I hate analogies, but no matter how many bodies there are in the universe, space is still a vacuum… eh? Anyone who is rational or scientific accepts “death” (or ‘losing’ analogously) as simply “a transformation of one type of energy into another.” The same message can be received in SF: losing is simply an experience that can be changed into a more learned one.

I mean, this is silly shit. Why do I come off as overly-philosophical when I basically re-word shit characters say in the winning quotes of the same games we’re talking about?? Because even though they’re right there in people’s faces, nobody tries to understand them. They only learn how to do shit with their fingers (copy like damn apes) and then complain about their own bullshit theories not holding water on SRK. Then we’re over here talking about vacuums and shit like this is a Hoover store. COME ON!!

Just admit it, Overworld. People are stupid.

Purely semantics, I say I’m not part of the “scene” as I do not play Marvel, so that’s why my arguement is more 3S based. As far as participating in the discourse, I suppose you could say, yes, that I am participating in the scene. I merely used “scene” to say I don’t play Marvel competitively.

And yet you go on about considering data. Wooly Booly… watch it now, watch it!

So now I’m a masochist? I play low tier because I want to make myself feel bad? I don’t see how saying Yun has more chance to win a tournament than Hugo is making anyone feel bad. It’s opinion, if someone says their sports team is better than yours, do you really feel poorly? I did not think it that serious.

You introduced the fact about playing low tier in this post. I don’t think it’s that serious, either… but since you multi-quoted my post and tried to tear it to pieces, I have my doubts about how you’re taking it. Perhaps the difference between you and I (which time will tell?trust) is that you’ll continue to defend yourself by quoting me and I will stop replying to you. Of course, you could prove me wrong… but judging by how overly-analytical you are I’m pretty sure you’re a last word freak. (EDIT: Okay, that was mean.)

Now I know, because you’ve read three of my posts, you assume you have a great handle on the type of person I am. You certainly have zeroed in on what flaws you think I have. To make such assertions really trivializes and generalizes about me personally, and that I find, is much more offensive than saying Chun has a greater probablity of winning a tournament than Remy.

Anyhow, I’m off to Final Round, to play some Remy, heh.

My posts are in reply to your posts, which were in reply or had some connection (however remote) to my original posts. We’re just in the same vicinity, so please don’t flatter yourself.

I don’t know shit about you… I only said it’s what you seemed like. (people do make mistakes!; read the edit) How’s that for a firm footing? You on the other hand, took offense easily. I do tend to intuit feelings, it’s true… but my conclusions are always contingent or in suspended judgment, and any assumptions on your or my part are wrong, yes.

I’m pretty sure that despite any of my speculations, you’re just trying to understand yourself… and that’s a pure motive. So try to understand when I say I’m not attacking you… or don’t. You’ll only be throwing your head into a wall… whether I reply or not.

I edited the shit out of this because my initial reply was a little too cutting. I was afraid of your replying to my first post before I edited it, and it happened… so if you reply to this one before I made the edit, you said what you had to say… but what I left is what I left.

aight that be it

[Overworld]

I’ve decided not to reply to the content of your last post, and I do not mean to be dismissive, I just thought it best that it ends where it stood, and that’s all right by me. Perhaps another time we can continue, when we’ve both understanding ourselves as well as each other better.

It’s cool, I’m sure we can just agree to disagree on the subject. I am in no way offended at all, I was just stating that I found the distinction between opinions of someone’s persona, and opinions about a game to differ in offensiveness.

I may seem over analytical, but really I just like a good discussion whenever there is one to be had, without resorting to talking about people personally, at least without first getting to know them to some extent. I quote things as I reply, not to try to dissect the conversation, but mostly to keep my train of thought as I write. Just a habit.

Appreciate the responses, and if we ever by chance run into each other, would love to play some games nonetheless. Though beware, the only MvC2 team I ever played a lil was Strider/Guile/Capcom, and I was non too good, but hey, at least you get that initial “What the?” from the other players when they see you select.

[System_1]

I agree with Darkgeese…play with whoever you like if they feel natural to you when you play them (something I’ve ALWAYS done)…but as it was also said here…know what the hell you’re getting yourself into when you choose who you choose…like when my homeboy Jim (CrackaJ) and I played KoF XI for the first time…we wound up discovering the top tier characters by accident. He used Kula and Gato because they felt right to him…and somehow they wound up being top tier. Same happened when I picked up Oswald…Tiers had nothing to do with that…he just felt right. (no, I’m not arguing anyone’s point here…)

Yeah reet! When are win ratio shot up that felt "right"
Kula and Gato in all games they have been in have never be lower then B class and it’s the japs were playing gato and kula in kof11 since day 1,and it’s so obvious they were top!

And 90% KOF newcomers are broke aka OZ!:arazz:

[Joe_Zaza]

I’ve decided not to reply to the content of your last post, and I do not mean to be dismissive, I just thought it best that it ends where it stood, and that’s all right by me. Perhaps another time we can continue, when we’ve both understanding ourselves as well as each other better.

It’s cool, I’m sure we can just agree to disagree on the subject. I am in no way offended at all, I was just stating that I found the distinction between opinions of someone’s persona, and opinions about a game to differ in offensiveness.

I may seem over analytical, but really I just like a good discussion whenever there is one to be had, without resorting to talking about people personally, at least without first getting to know them to some extent. I quote things as I reply, not to try to dissect the conversation, but mostly to keep my train of thought as I write. Just a habit.

Appreciate the responses, and if we ever by chance run into each other, would love to play some games nonetheless. Though beware, the only MvC2 team I ever played a lil was Strider/Guile/Capcom, and I was non too good, but hey, at least you get that initial “What the?” from the other players when they see you select.

It’s trueI take my opinions seriously and I ad hominem a lot. I’m just not used to having to defend what I believe… at the same time, I’m not afraid to put it on the table.

I like your approach. It’s a good stab at objectivity. Yeah, too bad we couldn’t continue. I’m really not going to! Except for you and a few others, I reminded myself why I hate SRK today! :rolleyes: Anyways, take it easy. I’ll try to!

late

[System_1]

damn, i appreciate even low tier characters because of this vid.

[FatalFuryD]

What dictates who is a ‘low tier’ character?

Their chances of landing tide turning combinations are lower than the others for non sf2 type games. They’d usually be less versatile.

[System_1]

All I’m trying to say, is come tourney time, many of those players revert to their top tier teams. The results of tournaments contradict the multitude of idealistic notions sadly. It’s easy to say these characters are all viable options come tourney time. (Saying that they can really doesn’t mean all that much. As being able to compete, and being proficient at it are different things. You could tape down all the buttons on your controller sans for one, and still could compete. Whether you could have enough skill to overcome the fact you only had one button would be the question.)

So can people play low tiers and win? I guess, never really seen that many winners using Anakaris, as much as I like the character. Perhaps the tournaments I’m looking at, are not indicative of the scene, I’m not part of the scene, but when I look in, I just must think it’s more than coincidental the sames names pop up all over the place.

Well, I’ll skip the big debate and jus give you the quick asnwer here.

Yes. Tiers exist. All other conditions being equal, Sentinel is better than Ryu. Top characters are also better than middle characters becaused they usually have more options in different combinations. Sent and Storm are at the topm because of their teamwork.

The point basically is that MvC2, like any other fighting game vere created with more than one character, have very real tiers. However, this does not mean that teh other characters are worthless, in the same way this is true for practically every other fighting game too. Saying “top tiers dominate” is not a rason to avoid Marvel, because they onky dominat eat the highest levels, and even then they are not any guarantee of winning. Marvel has an edge over some games because its top tiers have a really deep learning curve.

If you want to start kicking some ass in MvC2 day 1, you pick Megaman, Iceman or Juggernaut. If after some time you decide you want to get really good at the game, then you pick Sentinel, if you want to, or just keeps improving on whoever fits you better.

If you want to win tourneys, all other things being equal, you should play Santhrax, Yun, Blanka/Sagat/Bison or something, but this does not necessarily mean that Magneto, Cammy or even Shuma are completely useless. And, IMO, winning tourneys is not the main reason for gaming. Maybe there are 3 to 5 guys that will take Wong on Marvel in some tourney, and I’m guessing high. But winning on casuals, money matches or pools is perfectkly viable with low tiers, and you don’t have to be Wong to do it.

BTW, when I write “you” I mean it in a general way. I know you play low tier and all, I’m just trying to spark some love for the game.

Thats nothing compared to MVC2. 56 characters and only about 6 are used. Thats a whopping 50 characters not even bothered with.

Come on now. Read the thread, would ya?

I’ll say for it the fifth time. Percentages are completely irrelevant. Even if what yous ay was true (its not), if you take out 50 characters out of McvC2 the gaem is not a better game. Yes, it becomes way more balanaced than any other fighti8ng game ever, but it lacks 50 characters.

Seriously, I can’t even comprehend how so many people think percentage is relevant. Let’s ask Capcom to do collections with a 3rd Strike that has only 3 characters, a Marvel with 6 and a CvS2 ith 6 or something anbd we all be really happy, right? Or not?

I should rename the thread “percentages are meaningless or something”.

Good example. You have 3 oranges to eat in a desert island. You have 100% of your oranges.

Now, tow yeras later, you fall on another desert island you have 6000 oranges to eat in a desert island, but some tornado takes out 5400 oranges. Suddenly, you’re stuck with only 600 oranges to eat. You lost 90% of your oranges.

What is better? Having 100% of your 3 oranges (SF1) or 10% of your 6000 (MvC2)? For whoever missed the point, 600 oranges is more food than 3 oranges, and 20 viable characters is more than one, even if one means perfect balance.

[dizzynecro]

They are not going to win a lot. But if you are the superior player, you win. .

Not nessesarilar by any means. If you are the better player BY A TON you may win butt it still is an unreasonable advantage in a lot of cases

[Dark_Geese]

Or it could be the tiers need revisiting…

Me (Athena) and Ultimate Faust (Tung) Have shown people why Athena and Tung(always thought to be low tier before we showed otherwise in NGBC) deserve to move from E Class to C Class at least…so you gotta look at things that way also!

[_reload]

let’s say left hand is low tier and right hand is top tier

if you took a pencil and had 10 hours to write a page, the hand writing would look like shit… unless you repeated went over each letter after making it look hella sloppy…

write that same page with your right hand, it’ll be all nice and neat… and it only took you like 10 minutes.

it’s kind of like that. no matter which way you put it, low tier is always going to be at a disadvantage. i mean seriously, shin has been putting out shit with chun li, but if you think about it, all those combos don’t make chun li any better. it just showcases what she can do. she still has crap priority and a measly 2 way air dash, and don’t push numbers as simple as AHVB, rp xx hsf, typhoon xx hail or even unmashable tempests. it’s that simple pretty much.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

I am the self proclaimed master of colossus in Mvc2 and even I know my limits. Low tier characters are simply too situational, in that they function best only in a limited amount of situations where as Magnus and Storm have many more options. The trick is to create openings in which you know you can do damage and recognizing when to hold back.

People who play low tier characters need to suck it up and get better. Most importantly, stop using your character choice as an excuse for getting raped.

[TS]

The term “low tier” is constantly used wrong. It used to really piss me off, but I’ve sadly gotten used to it.

Second tier does not = low tier
middle doesn’t = low

low = low

[HuStLeMaN17]

the secret to being great with lowtier is…GREAT DEFENSE!!!

-Imo if your excellent at blocking then you well have great sucess with lowtier, again just my opinion.

[DAWOLF57]

I am the self proclaimed master of colossus in Mvc2 and even I know my limits. Low tier characters are simply too situational, in that they function best only in a limited amount of situations where as Magnus and Storm have many more options. The trick is to create openings in which you know you can do damage and recognizing when to hold back.

People who play low tier characters need to suck it up and get better. Most importantly, stop using your character choice as an excuse for getting raped.

The truth. BTW your colossus kicks ass.

[fishjie]

I am the self proclaimed master of colossus in Mvc2 and even I know my limits. Low tier characters are simply too situational, in that they function best only in a limited amount of situations where as Magnus and Storm have many more options. The trick is to create openings in which you know you can do damage and recognizing when to hold back.

People who play low tier characters need to suck it up and get better. Most importantly, stop using your character choice as an excuse for getting raped.

if you want to improve your collosus, you should study that hawaiian guy, i think his name was thomas. he would play msp religiously, pretty good at it, but when he fucked around he picked collossus/jug/sent. he was really good at it, had a couple 100% combos up his sleeve. i think he goes to preppys poker nights sometimes.

anyway i will hyper viper beam ure collossus, and ken SA3 ure hugo.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

if you want to improve your collosus, you should study that hawaiian guy, i think his name was thomas. he would play msp religiously, pretty good at it, but when he fucked around he picked collossus/jug/sent. he was really good at it, had a couple 100% combos up his sleeve. i think he goes to preppys poker nights sometimes.

anyway i will hyper viper beam ure collossus, and ken SA3 ure hugo.

You have not seen my colossus lately, it will pwn j00!

[fishjie]

You have not seen my colossus lately, it will pwn j00!

gameworks tomorrow. lets throw down before the marvel gods get there

also i found a place on the ave that has mvc2 free play on wednesday nights. joysticks and buttons work and everything