We have, and unless you know something else it is only semi right?
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I understand what you’re saying, and I’m not trying to get into an argument either, it’s just that opening someone up is hard with Lei as down backing stops everything because of his lack of a fast high/mid/low mix up, with the exception drunken stance and that horribly unsafe comet kick over head. I will be the first to say that sure I am having trouble with people down backing everything, the only thing that I could come up with was that drunken stance. It’s just that everything can be down backed with the exception of that and some other situational things. Everything you put up I’ve tried and regularly do with the exception of the charge cancel, which is what I’ll try out next. Like I said previously, Lei’s cr.mp is a stupid good frame trap as it leaves you on plus frames on block, which keeps people from pushing buttons anyway, so if you’re conditioning the opponent properly they shouldn’t be hitting many buttons vs. Lei. Chip damage… eh I mean I get it, but you’re not trying to do “big chip damage” The point, like you said is to open people up by mixing them up. Sure the Charge cancels helps, but that leads to a knock down, and while Lei has the ability to chase people with his long reaching stance moves, the name of the game is to keep your opponent standing to not allow them to get away by rolling, ect. I agree that Lei has an answer to a lot of things, but right now I’m just having a hard time until I figure out some good tactics that keep people guessing, or do you feel that Lei’s success is dependent on the knockdown?
I would really like to see some peoples matches, or maybe I’ll put up some of my own for a critique, apparently I’m the only one having problems.
J_monsterface: People aren’t talking about the palm loop because it’s going to be patched out, or altered. You don’t want to base your game on something that we all know will be changed. Like the way of raven, xiaoyu, and the dodo bird.
yeah, i thought i was cool
*stares off
Realistically, unless you want to build your whole game around the Orchid Palm loop, there’s no need to use it. Lei’s BnB’s push 450+ damage and hitting qcf+mp over and over and over and over gets really boring for a character who has so much more to him. There’s not much to talk about. If you can hit a cr.hp from a grounded tag in or tag in after a 2 hit dp you get the loop, the end.
Simply put, it’s a fad. If Lei becomes popular for it, that popularity will fall off quickly when it’s patched out. Also in the same way that Kazuya’s loop was, it’s a dick move in a match. You force your opponent to wait for 20 seconds while you mash and build meter while they slowly die. As a Lei player, I hate it. He’s easily the character with the deepest metagame in SFxT, to have him reduced to using one attack over and over and over is a bit of an insult to his character concept.
anyone in here east coast? If so add me XBL: Higg1n5 PSN: H1gg1n5_
Just trying to get better and some play some Lei vs Lei. Want to branch out and compare my style vs others.
PSN: Yung_Ice31. Honestly I say forget frame data. Maybe I’m just old school but I prefer to try something in endless and get bodied if it doesnt work, than to waste my time on frame data. Experience is the best educator. Im making a Lei room now.
you sir, have answered my stupid comment so truly and passionately and indeed soulfully,
that i have no joke to make
you are correct
Something funny that I just realized while in training mode is that after landing an ex palm crumple Lei can do a crossup reset with his jumping :mk:, but to create further confusion he can then proceed to use the mowers movement of his crouching :mp: to cross under the opponent while they are flipping back to their standing state.
Whether or not this is actually useful I’m not too sure as of yet, but it looks hella funny.
Not sure whether to choose Futurama or Joker version of “not sure if srs”
Went to a Shadowloo Night Live (yes, the same guys of Shadowloo Showdown fame) blew people up with Lei. Tried a safer frame trap with stance shuffling I was working on: f.mp, lp, down (dragon) mp/hp (hold forward), f.pp.
If they’re still blocking, you can safely hit cr.hp and fish for a counterhit. Previously I tried to do dragon pp to tiger pp but dragon pp pushes the opponent too far back and the tiger pp will whiff completely. Using dragon mp or hp moves Lei forward, making the pressure a lot more tight.
Also Lei hates Hwoarang. Fuck his godlike chains.
I was using something similar to this vs a Sim last night. If he tries to teleport behind you and do sniper, Lei’s cr.mp will go underneath Sim and put you on the other side thus avoiding the sniper completely and making it very difficult for Sim to block. Got him with it like 5 times hahah.
You know, I’d really like to talk more about the problem of not being able to open people up from down-back. I mean if you have that problem then it’s not like you’re crazy, other people are bound to run into the same problems when playing Lei so it seems helpful to talk about how to address it. I think a misconception might be that you absolutely need to implement some sort of high/low mix up in order to keep them from being stuck in that position. While that’s true to an extent in this game, I think it’s more important to have any sort of means to make them scared or anxious about sitting in down back. Hell, even something that makes them think that **they should be doing something else. I think that there are lots of characters without an in your face high low mix up that can still force their opponents to make moves that they want them to. Let’s take Chun-Li or Guile as examples. Obviously they can be debated as examples, but bear with me here. The only overheads these characters have are either obvious (hazanshu) or don’t lead to much (Guile TC). Theoretically I could down back and wait to block high, or take the hit and backdash away. Not too much to worry about, right? The thing is they have other tools, ranging from decent to great, **that may not beat down back but are situations that you just don’t want to get caught in over and over again. Both have great walk speed that aid with throws (even though they’re kind of shitty at breaking down back in this game) and projectiles. But you don’t want to sit there and take projectiles, you don’t want to take lightning legs into normal xx lightning legs all day. You’re going to do something else. It’s the same with Lei. Lei has a pretty good overhead, but it’s situational so it should be used where the situation deems it appropriate (yea, hard knockdowns are very appropriate.) Where I feel Lei shines is: A) completely changing the opponents opportunities to press buttons, **B) **building meter like a f*cking champ, and **C) **making the opponent fear the hard knockdown (due to drunk and Lei’s jump in.)
Keeping those three things in mind and really trying to abuse them makes people anxious and definitely want to do something else. Lei can practically cycle his stance pressure all day. The first 4 hits of razor rush are a true block string , but you can cancel them into stance or delay them at any point. You can cancel into dragon for s.MP xx f.PP for a +7 on block. You can go into a true block string with razor rush again after that! You can end with crane target combo, into a +4 situation. If the opponent just wants to sit there, be okay with that. You are building so much damn meter, getting occasional chip, wasting time, and figuring out your opponents block habits all at once. I think one of the most important aspects that people might overlook is that Lei has a nasty jump in. I abuse the sh*t out of jump with Lei. It’s tied for fastest diagonal jump in the game with Marduk (Bob only has the fastest neutral jump at 31 frames) and it comes with a really good cross up MK. Then you can also mix in the threat of comet kick overhead, which is definitely unsafe, but can give you a hard knockdown or make them hesitate so [BT] LK > cr.MP is possible.
I play Lei/King (for right now,) and I’ll pressure with razor rush, stance pressure, comet kick, cr.MP, and j.MK all day if they let me. I build loads of meter (especially with meter gems) and it just makes King a scarier and scarier threat for when he comes in.
It seems obvious to say Lei is a complex character, but it also doesn’t explain very much. He’s involved. You have to use a lot of your options in order to force your opponent where you want them**. **He actually feels like a stance character from 3d games. No single one of his options is close to overpowered. His stances are moves in and of themselves because you can use them to give your opponent a different set of answers. While one answer might be strong against a lot of Lei’s options, you have to make the opponent rethink that answer in a safe way.
This was probably a lot lol, but I really like Lei in this game. They gave him a ton of options compared to most characters and it’s fun to see how it works against opponents. I haven’t uploaded videos in a while (I only have a handcam) but I’d definitely like to get some Lei vids up. ****
So by the end of the night I think I’ve found my problem. Cr.mp pressure… I’m addicted to it. If I got a cr.mp i was bringing in law and one mix up later I was able to bring Lei back in on tag and finish. Of course that only works some of the time. I’m fine changing and using stances on their wake up, but when in a neutral state I have to stance change more, whether to bait something like a jump in or simply move forward. When I pressure gotta use cr.mp >razor more, but charge cancel has worked wonders. Thanks for all the advice! 
I think varying your pressure with Lei is going to be extremely important in the long run. Cr.MP fulfills a very good frame trap role, but it’s the same frame trap and people are likely to reversal through when they see it. Razor rush is awesome because it’s completely up to you when you want to give your opponent the opportunity to press a button. The only reason I’ve started to use f.MP, LP, MP into panther is because I’ve made them think that they can avoid dragon MP xx f.PP after the first two hits. But then I put them in a completely different situation where their timing is messed up.
Also, since you mentioned preferred stances at different ranges, I’ve actually been experimenting with it. A lot of times I’ll change into snake just to see what they do. HK will cover the air if they decide to jump, but I cancel into comet kick for fireballs, or you can actually switch to dragon if they hesitate. Dragon has pretty good AAs, with one that can go into tiger for reversal baits.
Sorry for being late, but on the last page I promised some of you a nice comprehensive movelist including stance changes and everything.
Lei-Movelist-Extended.rar <— Watch out, it´s the small download button. The large ones will download some crap like usual.
Print that thing and get rid of the mostly false and incomplete laggy ingame movelist 
[.odt and .doc file, they´re identical]
Tell me if I forgot any stance changing normal or anything.
Nice work Piep:tup:
btw, you can cancel into backturned stance after a reverse lotus, if you hold back before the follow-up
In drunk stance LK>MP>HK TC, HK’s recovery can be cancelled into Tiger Sip by pressing 2P. It may be useful against those who try to use standing attacks or Supers to punish? Lei doesn’t stay in drunk stance after Sip is over or after Sip Blow, but he does go into Play Dead after 3.
Sip Blow btw is at least -22 on block or may even be more unsafe.
Yea one stance that I’ve been going into from a distance is panther. Its mk is a pretty good anti air, and if you hit a jumping opponent you can go into razor for a juggle and end up in any stance you prefer for follow up pressure, it’s been working pretty well.
Ah right, I knew it but somehow forgot to include it.
You can also rehost the file on a better site if you know one. I just picked the first upload site I found.
Any word on TSB’s startup? Feels freakishly fast. Oh and on counterhit TSB sets a wall bounce.
Friend of mine has a pretty decent Jack and he said that Lei’s jump arc, cr.mp/razor pressure and shorter normals made it harder for him to keep Lei out. I found some of Jack’s pokes can be reacted to with hk.comet/ex comet to try and get in faster after being pushed out. It’s different from other special movements like Dudley’s duck, special steps and Lars’ silent entry because our hurtbox actually leaves the ground, saving us from nasty seismo keepaway.
Lei can also do instant jump back overhead with his j.HP. Its start-up is the same as Ryu’s j.HP (6f).
I’ve yet to figure out the start-up frame on TSB since I don’t know the cancellable frames on TS itself.
Thanks. That is good to know, our community don’t have many SFxT players (if any atm), and it’s useful to have any info on characters like Jack.
BTW, in dragon’s MK>LP>MP>LK, while the 2nd hit goes to Tiger Stance by inputting forward, it stays in Dragon by inputting up or down. Doing other things will move him to Regular stance. Unlike Tiger, it doesn’t forcefully stop Lei from completing the string.
EDIT: The start-up of TSB from the point of cancel seems to be identical with Drunk LP