Japan is better than Mexico in KOF2002.
Where’s the proof? I have more proof than ANY of you on this site to suggest otherwise, if there was a court based on this I would win because I have solid evidence, what do you all have? Online matches? Theory fighter? Yomi and fanboy wars ala stuff Emil and X20Strikefreedom did and Emil still does?
Wouldn’t hold up in the court of law it would be laughingly dismissed by the judge.
I take what you guys say and make it happen, so I would have more evidence than ANY OF YOU…And like I say, this isn’t over, it’s just the beginning of an ongoing war, I said this during JuareZ WarZone and I’m saying it again, the next chapter in this saga with Hummer is in less than 2 months (middle of August).
What’s gonna happen if Hummer loses? Are these same people gonna say “Japan is better than Mexico” or this proves nothing???
Japanese fanboys are gonna be Japanese fanboys I’ve said this again, even when the truth is in their face they cannot accept it, and the truth is that another Japanese player lost in Mexico, they refuse yet again to give Mexico ANY credit whatsoever this is what is so disturbing to me, it’s like Mexico is the dirt of the dirt even though they are continuing to prove themselves time and time again.
People like this are once again a main reason why this is still happening, I GREATLY enjoy enlightening these people about how very little they know about things. So I say again where is your evidence? Are you out there putting your reputation on the line doing what I do? Is your evidence strong enough to counter mine? If it isn’t then as I say it won’t hold up in the court of law and it is just simply based on fanboyism and bias and that is the honest to God truth.
It’s like the people that hate on Kobe Bryant etc, they may not like him but he’s winning and that’s really all that matters. I personally wanted Boston to win, but I cannot say Boston is better than LA because LA beat Boston when it counted, so that’s all that matters, I give LA credit where LA is due, now can you Japanese fanboys man up and give Mexico credit instead of the majority of you hiding in your caves in silence, or is this gonna carry over from JuareZ WarZone to Mexico vs. Panama?
-DG
A Japanese player who wanted to fight in Mexico. He’s not a well known name or anything, but it was just to prove a point. If what Emil says is true that most or all Japanese players are superior to KOF, Danke should have won regardless but not only lost, he didn’t get past the first round. Also, there was another match a while back as you all might know with Bata in KOF2002 original. Now, apparently, he’s ranked number 30 but Emil thinks that’s not good enough. Also, in ORIGINAL KOF2002, they used an Asian cabinet. Not a Japanese cabinet, but it was still an Asian cabinet.
Now, before I get further, I have a few questions. Emil, how is number 30 out of probably thousands of thousands of people not good enough? Think of the numbers and number 30 isn’t good enough to even get past the first round? That means out of the thousands of people, all KOF players that are ranked lower than 30 which is probably THOUSANDS, would not win against Mexico. So 30 isn’t a good enough rank when there are other thousands probably trying to be better than Bata? Anyhow, if that’s good enough, we have a surprise for you. Hummer, number 20 in KOF 2002 original, is coming with a Japanese cabinet.
Now, I’ve speculated some things you’ve said. Even though you say that the best players can lose to scrubs and newbs, how do they continue to make it to the top and get recognized of their rank if they don’t have the experience to take on newbs of a trick after apparent years of playing the game? Not to mention the fact that you’ve stated the Japanese are superior to Mexico in Yomi and the game in general. If that’s true, he should have whiped the floor with Mexico, especially since the cab was Asian (READ AGAIN! I NEVER SAID IT WAS JAPANESE BEFORE BUT YOU SAID I DID! I SAID ASIAN CABINETS!)
So then, what’s your excuse for that? Was their “Yomi” not good enough? Were their pants on too tight? Did you know that Daigo goes to EVO in America and if he fights with Justin Wong, people are chanting “U.S.A! U.S.A!” but he can still win efficiently? People state it’s because it’s Daigo’s Yomi and mind power. If the Japanese top players can’t come to Mexico and handle their game in Mexico while nobody’s bantering “MEXICO! MEXICO! MEXICO! MEXICO! MEXICO!” So there’s less pressure. Maybe these top players don’t have as good “Yomi” as you say.
P.S.
Again, the Mexicans complained about the cabinet they were using when playing Bata. They weren’t USE to the cabinet, meaning they were at a handicap in 2002 original. We’re not talking about Unlimited Match, this is 2002 ORIGINAL. I don’t know what happened in 2002UM completely and I don’t care cause I’m not talking about that, so stay on topic.
I’m a neutral party and rarely play KOF02 but I’ve enjoyed watching this debate evolve over the years and start to flesh out recently. Personally, I think Hammer on JP stick & buttons he approves of would be an excellent test. It’s sort of funny how both sides have been posturing though: Dark Geese claiming dominance based on unfamiliar controls and an unfamiliar player, Emil exaggerating the dominance of JP players at large.
Adjusting to a new environment, crowd noise, stress, and other passive factors unrelated to the game itself is no excuse to any tourney player but for those who minimize the role of controls, try switching to another type of stick and you can easily see it’s not really feasible to adjust in a few days. Imagine Daigo having to play SSFIV on an “awful” (his word) Happ stick and then losing to top US players; I can’t imagine anyone taking that result seriously.
The facts that are clear right now after these first 2 results is that an average unknown JP player specializing in KOF2002 can’t hold up to the best of Mexico and a top JP player using unfamiliar controls (of his own fault) can’t beat them either. But I don’t think anybody is truly satisfied with these results in their hearts.
Now regarding this upcoming matchup, Emil has given praise to Hammer’s performance numerous times and has considered him to be one of the best examples of KOF02 play based not only from Hammer’s results but also from his knowledge and tactics (apparently evident to any educated viewer). If Hammer gets taken down on JP parts, that would be a clear sign of international parity (or even Mexican dominance depending on the performance), regardless of whether Hammer has a deeper understanding of mechanics. Or if Hammer wins, then that shows that when top players of both countries are paired on even grounds, JP players will come out on top (the degree of which would depend on the performance). Either way, provided the controls work out, this sounds like the first match where one side will be forced to back down, at least a little.
I do appreciate that Dark Geese is actually trying to empirically prove which idea is true instead of being content to base everything purely on casual netplay videos where players may be holding back or otherwise not playing at their full potential, to not even speak of lag issues over such a distance.
That’s pretty much all we can ask man. At least give the Mexicans a chance to prove themselves. They’ve done a lot so far and have no reason to be belittled, but Emil does so. Hummer is going to be using a Japanese stick this time, we’ve constantly reminded Dune to let him bring his stick no matter what so we won’t hear any crying or griping.
Except I don’t actually think that, so that’s a fail.
I don’t believe in those rankings, I don’t even know what they are based on. I don’t think he’s a representative for the 2k2 scene, don’t think he’s rank 30 at all. He was probably ranked based on his overall kof ability somehow, but not the 2k2 ability.
I’m not belittling them. You know that when I was relatively new to the kof scene (or fighting game scene rather), the best high level matches I could find were Mexican…you’ll see in my channel that I started out with Mexican match uploads. Then I ran into Japanese matches afterwards and was convinced that they were better than the Mexicans. It’s not really some grudge I have against Mexicans, though there’s a grudge I have against Dark Geese for using such tactics to prove Mexico is better.
And while I think Japan dominates, the word dominate isn’t quite the way you’d use it. While I think Japan would win, the domination I’m referring to is regarding mastery/knowledge of all aspects of the games, as well as ability to understand what their opponents will do next, and executing difficult things in tight spots when you must act. This stuff doesn’t really show when you just look at a score, and you need some good understanding of the game to see it.
Regarding Hammer…yeah I think he’s pretty good but to be honest it would be better if Kyappu represented Japan.
Eh, I don’t know why I have to answer such obvious questions.
When you continuously play at a high level, there are certain strategies/tricks that you just never see anymore. It’s all part of the metagame. When you then start fighting people that seem to depend on them, you have to readjust your way of thinking (generally dumbing down your game). You can get hit by a few of these unexpected scrub moves until you really start to understand the opponent’s level and their tendencies.
One that comes to mind is those guys that continuously use O Yashiro qcb+A…sometimes so predictably that you don’t expect them to be that predictable. You’re going to get caught by it if you’ve been playing high level play which will practically never do it. But it’s not because they think that you won’t expect it, so they do it…they aren’t even thinking about that. They are only using it because it’s the only way they can land their favourite combo and its’ easy to execute the setup.
And Ganelon, those mexicans in the GGPO videos would never hold back…they have too much pride for that, especially when there’s 30 spectators watching the match.
This is a good post. All we are saying is give the players a chance don’t write them off or disrespect them just because they ain’t the famous almighty Japanese players. I look at JuareZ WarZone as the first in what will be a LONGGGGGGGGGGGG LINE of tournaments to come, because to me I look at things over the long haul, sure one time one person winning can be a fluke, but several times is that a fluke?
That’s what I see, thus if Mexico wins at Mexico vs. Panama and the score is 3-0 is it a fluke that Mexico is winning? I don’t think so, give the guys credit!!! People need to open their eyes stop treating Japanese players like JapaJesus or something, and realize their is skill all over the world, not just limited to Asia as unfortunately due to SBO, EVO with the Japanese 10+ year dominance in damn near everything, and other tournaments people have been warped to believe applies to damn near everything. Mexico vs. Panama will possibly be the final tournament with a Japanese invite this year, if not the next one could POSSIBLY be in November, so Mexico vs. Panama is it for the Mexico vs. Japan War in 2010!!!
This is the point, these people need to stop being belittled because of GGPO what you all THINK you know about how they play, I remember Necro and Emil saying that same stuff about how they play ONLINE…and as I am hopefully showing you all, online does not equal offline.
Oh yeah while I am at it, Danke had a blast in Mexico City this is his latest email to me:
“Thank you, dark geese for your great help!
I really had a big fun and good memory with mexico players! I really really miss them, I promise when you guys come to Japan, I will in return help you!
we can be like a bridge between contries!”
-DG
So…uh, KOF 2002 Unlimited Match huh? I sure do love all this discussion which is completely RELEVANT to KOF02UM.
Sorry for the intrusion but I think that’s what happens when the main topic for this discussion is closed. Still, this is better than an all-out confrontation, no? I’ve got my KOF02UM Tougeki ver. pre-ordered and prepared for shipping from Play-Asia anyway so I guess I can test specific differences between this and the regular KOF02UM if nobody else can (although I’d prefer no complex combos).
I hope you’re right about that. I’ve had 10+ spectators on me on GGPO and still held back, simply because I thought the other player would find the more even experience fun and keep coming back for more (whether that actually happens or not, I’m not positive). Other times, I’m just testing specific move properties at certain distances against other moves.
If there’s something to be figured out in casuals, I always try to test rather than play my best. A few folks can tell immediately that something doesn’t feel right, that it seems like I’m not trying. The vast majority don’t seem to detect anything, which is a bit sad in that it’s evident they’re looking solely at the result or surface actions and not the specific tactics used in the actual match. Now, perhaps I’m the only one who does because I hope to foster a bigger scene but you never know. From Maj’s recent post on sonic hurricane, even Alex Valle was willing to throw a tourney match to let another player reach first place for once and I doubt you’d question his pride.
Anyway, related to that, I do agree with you, Emil, though that there are tactics that are hidden from casual observers. I play ST and every year or so, I look back at JP matches from a few years back and keep finding tactics I never comprehended before. They were visible in plain sight but I didn’t understand the full rationale behind using them and sometimes the intricate motion behind them. But year after year, I’ve progressed and can now give an explanation on the vast majority of strategies involved.
Still, even though some players have better knowledge doesn’t mean that they won’t lose to players who intuitively play better or smarter. A lot of combo makers have great knowledge of the game they exhibit along with superb technical skills but lack the mindgames, interest, and/or experience to use them to full effect in a match setting.
So I concur that observing the quantity of “skill tactics” isn’t entirely subjective but fighting game “superiority” is ubiquitously viewed solely based off wins and losses as opposed to artistic points. And in such a competition, can a technical and battle hardened JP player consistently win games against someone who may know less but “fight” more? Well, that’s why Dark Geese’s ft10 matches will reveal much and is something to get excited about. I have faith that one of you will grudgingly concede a point to the other. 
Ganelon wins again- It’s not what you know, but how you APPLY IT. The prettiest player doesn’t always win (Alexis vs. Esteban case in point), the person that knows the most doesn’t always win, it comes down to Matchups, Experience, Adaptation and Exposure!!!
Well, Dune himself told me (personally) that Bata is number 30 in KOF2002. Also, any person on Earth can understand the game silly. "^^ I mean, mastery and knowledge of the game is accessible to anyone because it’s a game. People programmed, designed and just created this game. There’s a lot to understand, but at the same time, it means everyone can understand it.
Sorry, I’m not sure if we could get Kyappu at this time. He might be influenced if something happens with Hummer. According to Dune, Hummer is number 20, which is pretty good in my honest opinion.
Now then sir, you can never say “answer such an obvious question” because what may be obvious to you, might not be obvious to others. We live in a world of perception, meaning we all see things quite differently. Maybe someone else agrees with you, but for different reasons about this, but I see a few faults with what’s said, so it might not be as obvious as you may exclaim.
Alright, you state here that they have a mastery of the game and all around great knowledge of it.
Well, I see a bit of a problem here man. I mean, you said they know the game all around. Doesn’t that mean they’d know many of the tricks thrown out through the years? Have the Mexicans found tricks that Japanese players couldn’t? Also, if you can understand a top level player’s tendency, how come they can’t find a scrub’s? I don’t know, maybe it’s just me but I’m sure that a top level player could find a way to exploit such things. Also, if this can happen to top level players of Japan, how do they continue to make it to the top of each tournament they get? I’m sure there are scrubs that start going to tournaments whom they fight, right?
Also, I’m not sure about the Orochi Yashiro thing. Cause if it’s so predictable that you fall for it, then why’d they fall for it? It’s contradictory to state that it was very predictable if they didn’t see it coming. My friend is very similar with Orochi Yashiro, but it doesn’t even take me that long to realize his strategy and I’m just an average guy who’s not a top KOF player. I don’t get to play his Orochi Yashiro that often, he likes Regular Yashiro better.
Anyhow, I’m not sure about the pride thing, that’s up for debate.
it’s apparent that someone doesn’t know enough about the scene, the game, or even how a meta works
Bottom line is once again the prettiest player does not always win.
that’s not what i was getting at =/
Eh no, we weren’t really talking about application of the knowledge. This isn’t exactly the example but picture the best player in the world in ST, losing to a scrub that just happened to get lucky with the tick throws after a jumpin, even though the guy tick throwing has a one track mind and doesn’t really have a clue about what he’s doing.
Some players can brute force beat another player that is easily better than him. Against those brute force kind of players, the matches rarely look pretty.
Anyway this isn’t relevant.
Sure, we all (hopefully) try to feel out our opponents to see what we can and can’t do against them. However, there already is a lot of rivalry with Japan and Mexico (well, mainly Mexico creating it) and I highly doubt winnie or the other mexicans (who are usually bragging about beating X player) would be throwing away matches against the Japanese. Maybe the very first matches, but they played long sets (some of them like 40 games).
I didn’t say they didn’t know about the tricks.
Ugh…I highly question your knowledge of fighting games in general.
Obviously it’s harder to understand a scrub’s gameplay than a high level player’s gameplay because…it takes time to find out exactly how much they know and don’t know (as opposed to fighting someone who is high level who knows everything).
Low level players rarely even understand their own actions, so how would you? It’s not easy…
The reason is probably because you don’t fight any(or many) high level players so your gameplay is not accustomed to the high level metagame. If anything, the metagame of your scene would consist of people doing low level stuff like that (people who’s game center around Takuma running hcb+D grabs, O Yashiro qcb+A, Chris dp+A, grapplers whiffing jump attacks at the air then throwing on the way down, etc etc)
That answered literally nothing. I said nothing about gameplay first off and second off, you’re one to talk favoriting really shitty Blazblue players just because they’re Japanese. It was a disgust and a disappointment to see such players being a favorite and why would you favorite them.
Really? So it’s hard to understand someone that knows nothing about the game and probably only uses few tools than to understand a person who knows all about the game and can win with all the tools he knows he has? All the anti-airs he knows how to use? All the pokes he can efficiently throw out? All the pressures he can mix up with? A lot of KOF characters have capabilities of beating out random button mashing, taking one more and using it to start up a simple combo, etc…
Let me present a match for example. In Shit Fighter 4, it was Umehera Daigo vs. an Abel player named Shiro (the best Abel player). Shiro grabbed Daigo 3 times in a row on recovery. On the fourth grab, Daigo stopped falling for it. This is proof that a top level player can learn to stop falling for a weird tactic that probably wouldn’t normally win you a game. Also, scrubs have a tendency for falling to simple strategies, so why wouldn’t a top level player know how to use these simple strategies to beat them out?
Now, if you really think “Hm, how much does this guy know?” that still doesn’t go with the fact that these top players fight scrubs in tournaments all the time but have no idea how much these new guys know. Guess what though, they still come out on top. Give me an explanation on how they make it on top if there are possibly plenty of scrub strategies going around?
Also man, there’s another problem. These Mexican guys aren’t scrubs, so what does it have to do with what we were originally talking about? What evidence do you have to prove their “scrubbyness”?
By the way, much to my dismay, I have found out that KULA won Game of Death 2010.
Game of Death 2010 2002 Results:
1st- Kula (Puebla, MEX)
2nd- Ruletas (MEX)
3rd- Kensou (MEX)
4th- Caras
The tournament did not finish until 6 AM on Sunday so it lasted a very very long time. Both Kula and Osmani were at the tournament.
Because Abraham was not there, Kula will play vs. Abraham ft10 at the tournament August 1st in Veracruz to determine who will go to Morocco it wille be recorded and I will obtain it…
Danke said that the Mexicans have to play against the tops in Japan to see who is the best and apparently we have this on film.
The tournament format was Double Elimination like it is ran here in the USA.
-DG
This topic really should NOT continue here, gotta say.
DG baby, show me the way cuzen. i need to see these battles right now.
How about a new thread?