I agree. She’s really tough on Honda too. I have an extremely hard time fighting MonGoloRoboKop, Zass, Skankin Garbage and VOLTECH. It’s quite a bit of work to beat her with Honda. She has a lot of options and her normals are really good in the Honda match.
She was never really a big issue for Hawk. Sure its a little better for her in HDR, but one knock down still ends it for her.
How is Geif low?
And the kid at EVO had a nasty Cammy.
Cammy cant be last.
While I agree that Ryu got better and Chun Li got worse, I don’t think that warrants putting Ryu at #1 and dropping Chun Li to lower mid. At worst, Chun is top of mid tier and at best Ryu is middle of top tier. The only change to Chun that I’m not happy with is losing her instant neutral j.kick AA thanks to new Air SBK motion. Chun is still a very strong char and still has all the tools she needs to be top tier.
BTW anybody know if NKI was in the EVO tourney? I know he switched to Dictator.
This is very true of HDR.
Every character is so close to one another, that anyone has a chance. That being said, every character has a bad matchup.
Want to take out Rog, a ‘top tier’ character? Learn Cammy or maybe even dictator.
Want to take out Honda? Perfect your skills as ryu.
It’s just the way the game is. It literally is kinda like rock papper scissors.
I didn’t know NKI counted as every major US Chun player. (BTW he should go back to Chun, his Bison is nowhere near as good.)
Mongolorobokop and Zass (who made it to winners final at evo) have shown that a lot of people are seriously overreacting to Chun’s nerfs.
Chun was already top tier in VST, she got some nerfs that pushed her down to upper mid, but so did the rest of the top tier so it’s not as bad because uppermid is even closer to the top now.
So now she’s about as strong as Dee Jay, the horror!
Anyways I see the tiers looking like this:
Top: Boxer, Sim, Claw, Ryu (fake fireball and nerfs to top push him up), Dic (buffs to a character who was already near top solidifies him there)
Upper Mid: Chun, Dee Jay, Honda, Ken
Mid: Everybody else.
I think Sagat is a wildcard, I don’t know how people can place him when he got such drastic changes and we have no empirical evidence to go by.
Yeah, Daigo eliminated him from the loser semi’s. I don’t know who sent him there.
Thanks for the info Bruce. Other than NKI, IDK of any other top Chun Li players dropping her. As well as the players you mentioned, I know TechnicalMonkey’s still using Chun.
Ken is not low mid, he’s at least upper mid. Definitely a candidate for most improved character in the game.
Whoa wtf you serious?
He didn’t get anything to help his match-ups really.
Sagat really is up in the air but at least he got a buff with his TK. Boxer, Sim and Claw got nothing but nerfs really.
How the hell is Dic on the same level as Boxer, Claw, Sim, Sagat and Ryu.
They are way more solid then Dic and have better tools for sticky situations.
Dic for upper mid plz kthnx.
Dictator (along with Ryu) did not receive any nerfs as far as I can see. There’s pretty much no reason to choose ST Dictator over HDR Dictator. There’s no way he’s upper anymore. He has a pretty comfy seat in top (mostly due to the DR).
a blocked/whiffed dp sends your ass back in the corner.
vega is certainly ryu’s worst matchup, or is it rog? or sim? or gief?
as for ryu being #1, nope. fake fireball is cute and all, but its all shenanigans and gimmicks.
as for the best, i’d say rog. he got nerfed but thats barely noticable unlike chun. his super still does a fuck ton of damage. besides, all the character that gave him trouble in st got nerfed (chun, honda)
Imo Zangief legitimately beats Rog now, and I also think Honda got a bit better in his Rog matchup as well. I mean it’s mostly the same matchup, except now fierce hands is easier.
I like that list.
Gief definitely beats Rog.
Rog has to get in and that’s what Gief wants. Landing SPD’s then becomes a much easier task.
I think Gief vs. Boxer is 5-5. In my experience, it seems a lot like Sim vs. Boxer (which I also think is a 5-5), only in reverse if that makes sense. Boxer has an easy time keeping Gief out (normals, rushes, headbutts) and has an answer for anything Gief does at 3/4 to full screen away. But as soon as Gief gets in it’s practically all over.
What did Rog lose to make this a worse match? If I remember right, a jab headbutt upclose still put you at risk for a SPD. It still sucks a LOT, no doubt, but this match was always about counter attacking for Rog
It’s not about Rog really, except that super does less. It’s that kick lariat can now go through low rushes, headbutt can now go over them, and that punch lariats now trade with meaty max range low rushes.
By the way I heard Buktooth quit Chun too.
Well, you can at least still use kick rush to beat lariats. But yeah, wiffing a low rush through a lariat sucks.
This is probably one of the better tier lists I’ve seen in this thread. I especially like that it ranges from A to B+. There is no LOW tier in HDR IMHO. Not sure about a couple specifics, like Dhalsim and Sagat still being top. But overall, I think it’s pretty good.
Whoah whoah whoah…this tier list is way too compressed. Only three tiers? This isn’t VF or Tekken. Let’s be realistic. 
And A, A-, B+? And what happened to A,B,C,D, etc.? 
Sagat most certainly does not belong in the upper tier, he might be top of the mid tier characters, but to bracket him on the same level as Boxer or Claw is a bit too lenient for R.Sagat in my opinion. Even Dictator I’d be hesitant to include in the upper level of characters in HDR.
A:
-
Boxer: still an offensive powerhouse, nerfs were minimal as his SUPER still does around 50% damage, and I haven’t observed his shortened hold range affect him dramatically nor his ability to build less meter with TAP and Headbutt. Because O.Sagat and Claw’s knockdown are gone it might propel Boxer to the top of the top.
-
Sim: while he loses a small advantage on Guile, and his SUPER only does 50% which is still quite good, his new reversal SUPER and better vertical Yoga Flame basically keep him at even with his ST level. Nothing really major happened with Sim from ST to HDR from what I can tell. It’s not like his entire design was altered (like T.Hawk). I’d say that Sim remains a top tier character.
-
Claw: still the best ground game without question, incredible walking speed, huge off the ground and air game, and incredibly corner tactics. ARG and Noguchi rated Claw a top tier character and that was with them soft banning the wall dive loop from their game play. So Claw losing the knockdown loop does probably put him not as the top of the top tier overall, but merely just in the top tier (oh the humanity). If Claw had a knockdown dive he’d be in the S tier but without that abusive loop he’s still top three in my opinion.
-
Ryu: fake fireball is not a shenanigan as some have suggested. James Chen wrote a post about how the fake fireball has a full animation to it, and that it forces people to react to Ryu’s start-up animation to the fake fireball and puts them open for a dragon punch or something else in Ryu’s favor depending on how they react. Remember, Ryu had a fake fireball in ST, you merely crouched and then went to neutral. You could fake SUPER as well by doing a double crouch into neutral (either Valle or Choi did this at last year’s EVO finals when one of them used Ryu against Kusumondo). With the fake crouch fireball of ST there wasn’t a start-up animation, it was just movement, so it was tough to fool an opponent into thinking a fireball was coming.
B:
-
Dictator: New Devil’s Reverse helps him out against projectile characters tremendously but it’s still useless against cross-ups and meaty attacks other than building meter. The buff he should have gotten was make Devil’s Hand award more meter and not go through fireballs. He still has the incredibly ambiguous cross-ups and dizzy combos, fast walk speed, good throw range, fast instant overhead, and excellent corner tactics. But not having a true special reversal that can beat meaty attacks just keeps him out of being an absolute top tier character.
-
Sagat: OK so he’s not O.Sagat but R.Sagat has better Tiger Knees and Tiger Shots than N.Sagat, has a reversal SUPER, and the SUPER is slightly improved. I think people are abandoning R.Sagat obviously because he cannot compare to O.Sagat at all but I wouldn’t be so quick to underrate him simply because he’s not the dominant juggernaut that was O.Sagat.
-
Honda: still dies to fireball characters but seems either the same or better against everyone without a projectile. Certainly having the only stored throw with negative edge option select (because of no whiff animation) makes him a vicious foe up close.
-
Guile: New RH flashkick basically means T.Hawk is a 9-1 match-up in favor of Guile, and having an overhead helps him out a bit in certain match-ups though the overhead is slow. Still solid mid-tier, nothing moves him significantly in either direction on the tier list.
-
DJ: Not familiar with DJ at all but a cursory evaluation of his changes basically indicates neutral movement across the tiers. He didn’t seem to receive any dramatic buffs to push him to the top of mid or into top tier. And he didn’t seem to get nerfed to an extreme.
-
Ken: SUPER reversal, improved Dragon Punches, but the thing that set him apart as a shoto was the kneebash which has been nerfed. Ken is like Ryu lite but with nerfed gimmicks compared to ST.
C:
-
FeiLong: Always a capable and yet usually underrated character. His buffs to the Flame Kick are great but the Flying Kick nerfs nearly negate those gains. Not mid tier but leads the pack of lower-mid characters.
-
Blanka: Don’t know much about Blanka but I think taking away his unblockable bug removed some of the unique flavor of ST. Not really a balance issue just an observation. Still don’t see him as being anything better than a capable low tier character as his nerfs aren’t dramatic enough to propel him higher.
-
Chun: maybe the most nerfed character in the game? Legs, SUPER, and neck-breaker all heavily nerfed, and what was supposed to be a buff…the new SBK doesn’t help much at all from what I’ve seen and makes it harder for her to build meter.
D:
-
Gief: has a few better match-ups but still hard to get in and stay in. Also Green Glove command overlaps with SPD so you might get a Green Glove when you want the command throw ending in QCF+P. Hawk’s throw is a 360 and his DP is a DP motion to avoid the overlapping command. Gief’s SUPER command was allegedly fixed but I’ve had it fail from a programmed controller.
-
Cammy: unnecessary nerfs especially one that was meant to help out a Sim of all characters. She already was low tier and was barely adjusted to be better.
-
Hawk: Much worse dive that was intended to be safe on block but has been proven to not be against a good amount of the cast. Not only can some characters hit you after a blocked dive but they can hit you have a dive connects for a hit as well. Also the old dive was relatively safe against most of the cast on block and knocked down on hit. The throw whiff animation destroys his entire fundamental gameplay of ST and might be the biggest balance change in the game. SUPER motion is harder and less efficient to perform than the hold motion and has a few programming bugs in it as well…it’s possible to input the SUPER motion and end the command in back and Hawk will DP. Also Hawk’s DP bug is still present.
Loop? So all touch-of-death combos could be considered a loop but none of them were removed.
Getting in with the new dive is without question harder than using the old dive.
But well-rounded doesn’t mean better. He’s more well-rounded but he’s overall worse.
LOL!!! T.Hawk being game breaking /me head explodes. 
Where were all those game breaking T.Hawk’s leading the pack at Mikado and SBO? :wasted::wasted:
Read th quote again imo.
“Hopefully t hawk will be more effective, just not overpowered” does not equal t hawk is overpowered.
Also, jigglynorris is a pretty good t hawk player, and he does not think new dive is unquestionably worse, so I dunno! That is a pretty bold statement.
Last thing, no old sagat in game is a pretty big buff to chun li!