Hey cool I’m a good T.hawk player too. I think the new dive and new hawk in general sucks!
You say ‘read the quote again’ but instead of quoting what was actually said, you deliberately change it and then try to pass it off as Sirlin’s words? Either that or you have the worst reading comprehension on the forums.
Sirlin has said multiple times that he felt that T.Hawk’s corner loop was overpowered and gave Hawk too many easy wins in ST because the loop was an infinite. There is a reason Hawk was nerfed more than anyone else (but perhaps Chun-Li) from ST to HDR. It’s because Sirlin grossly overestimated the potency of the throw loop and didn’t understand anything about the old and new dives. Look at how overpowered Sirlin thinks that T.Hawk was in ST.
LOL let’s see…“deadly throw loop” “instant checkmate” and of course “game-breaking” round out Sirlin’s knowledge of T.Hawk.
Now let’s take touch of death combos…where just landing a jump-in can net you a dizzy combo that does over fifty-percent damage. Meaning you land it twice and you win the round. Deadly? Certainly sounds it. Instant checkmate? You bet your sweet ass it is, they don’t call it touch of death for nothing. Game breaking? No, because touch of deaths, and corner infinite loops and lockdowns, are all part of high level ST.
Sirlin changed T.Hawk because Sirlin thought his design was poor and boring in ST and that his game revolved solely around getting the loop off. So he spiced T.Hawk up by changing his entire mechanics and character design. No longer was he an all or nothing grappler (as opposed to an all or nothing hitter like Dictator in ST) but he was a variety type (Marvel!). Of course now his variety is lose or lose hard. 
As far as I can tell Jigglynorris might be the only T.Hawk on the forums to think that the new dive is better than the old dive. And most of his posts come across as trolling in the Hawk section regarding how awesome he thinks R.Hawk is compared to O.Hawk. He said, and I quote, “the new whiff is fair”. Not only that but has yet to provide any solid evidence despite numerous posters in the T.Hawk thread requesting it that the new dive is better than the old one.
100% personal opinion
If you’re using the new dive properly, you can chip away much more repeatedly than with the old one. If your opponent was cornered, there was a HUGE feeling of dread against ST T.Hawk because you could get in with a knockdown dive there, and your tick loop was much safer, granted. Everywhere else, the new dive is better if you’re using it right. If you throw it out and hit too high against certain characters, you can get hit, but you can learn pretty quickly how to avoid this situation.
I absolutely dispute the new dive being either strictly worse overall than the old one with knockdown. I won’t say the new dive 100% better either (why not have both, it would have been EASY), but overall it’s much more effective for me, and most of the T.Hawks I have played against used it much more regularly and effectively than the old one. That said, T.Hawk is still pretty much the bottom of the barrel tier-wise, despite the great amount of satisfaction had by those who play and love him. (Completely agree with the 100% ToD comparison as well though, FYI.)
Random HDR tier notes:
-Sagat is definitely not top tier. He plays so much differently than any previous version; nice combos and pressure strings to back up his significant (but no longer ridiculous) fireball games. Solid mid, below Ryu and probably Dic.
-Ryu’s fake fireball makes him better for mix-ups. It is a better fake than simply seeing him duck and nudge forward, even if only by a marginal amount. It can also be canceled out of sweeps into overheads and throws. Despite this, and the slight weakening of the real top-tier, Ryu’s still high(est?) mid.
-Agreed that Chun’s lower. I love playing as her, but damn did she get stripped.
-Dictator is definitely better, but not enough to make him top tier.
When people say mid I’m thinking Ken, Guile, Deejay and Honda.
And my brain just rejects the idea that Sagat should be lumped with them.
Because he really shouldn’t.
Well you certainly know Sim’s matchups better than I do. Many of his good matchups may be better, but have any of them flipped? Sim has actual reversals now, so for example while it might be easier to get in as Zangief, getting in no longer equals a free win. As for Sagat, I could definitely believe mid tier.
But yeah, there’s no doubt imo that the tiers are very tightly compressed.
n00b question: What was his unblockable bug in ST?
Characters with reversals that are capable of hitting on the first frame (like Blanka) have a 50% chance of that move being unblockable. If you check the dipswitch settings, you’ll see them listed there.
Well there you go, you are basically saying that you and the other Hawk players that you are familiar with, aren’t good with Hawk.
A truly competent and skilled Hawk player in ST would not mindless overuse the old dive. The purpose of the dive was that it yielded extremely high reward (knockdown on successful hit) but was very dangerous to use against some (repeat some, not all) of the cast. Only around half of the cast could really punish the old dive when it was blocked and if you hit your opponent low on their hitbox you could safely land.
This has been proven wrong. There are situations where the dive both hits and connects and hits on block where the opponent can attack you safely during your recovery. I know Sirlin wrote that many things in HDR initially come out incorrectly (like Ken’s DP from the 360 beta) and things like Akuma overall came out very much wrongly. T.Hawk to me is another example of no oversight for the balance changes in HDR.
I would love to see how this comes out on a 10-match chart so that we could see just how compressed the tiers are. I want to say that the most compressed match chart I’ve seen is from Marvel Super Heroes. The difference in the total number of wins from Spidey to Blackheart only had a range of…like…10 or 12. (Of course, that was an old Gamest chart and they didn’t know about Iron Man’s ability to start an infinite from anywhere on the screen, but that’s still an amazingly balanced game…which is why it’s still my favorite Marvel game!) 
Anyway…yeah…somebody do it! Somebody make a chart!
Are you sure about that? From what I’ve observed in recent competitive play, they (esp. Noguchi) will repeat wall dives upon knockdown (but will stop in casual play if the next one can result in a kill). It just seems that JP players are better at defending against it and cheesing back (like with Noguchi vs. Shiki at last year’s SBO), which makes the wall dive knockdown more of an annoying good tool rather than an overpowering tool.
In SBO I’ve never seen them (ST Claw players) shy away from endlessly wall diving. But outside of major tournaments I know that ARG stated he softbanned the wall dive bombardment. Obviously if you are in a highly competitive environment you and want to play to win then you do anything possible to win. Hence why in AE tournaments you saw people switching heavily to CE.Dictator.
why are you from sirlin.net? that shit is old (like over a year old) and i’m sure sirlin didnt expect everything to work out the way it did.
going back on topic
i still can’t see ryu being better than sagat, guile or even deejay. sagat’s fireball got nerfed, but its still faster than ryus and probably still recovers quicker (don’t know the frame data offhand). guile got buffed up a lot, deejay not so much, but those buffs are more significant than say ryu’s fake fireball.
only two characters i can confidently say that is top tier is balrog and vega.
Maybe because he was already near their level in VST and got nothing but buffs while all of the top got nerfed?
Mines better :arazz:.
You seriously underrating Ken, Dee Jay, and Honda, and probably overrating Sagat.
Ryu was already better than Dee Jay, and fake fireball > Dee Jay’s buffs.
Ryu was way better than Guile, even with Guile’s buffs he’s not better than VST Ryu, let alone remix Ryu.
Regarding Sagat, I don’t know exactly where he should be, but I don’t think it’s the top where Ryu is. I think people are under appreciating just how big a nerf his extended hitbox on his tiger shots is.
RY KE HO CH BL ZA GU DH TH FE DJ CA BX CL SA DI
RY - 6 7 6 7 7 5 3 7 7 5 7 4 4 4 6 (85)
KE 4 - 8 5 7 7 4 5 7 7 4 7 4 4 5 6 (84)
HO 3 2 - 6 7 6 4 6
CH 4 5 - 6 7 5
BL 3 3 4 4 - 7 6 3 3 4 2
ZA 3 3 3 3 3 - 3 4 6 3 3 3 6 3 3 4 (53)
GU 5 6 7 - 5
DH 7 5 4 6 - 6 4 7
TH 3 3 4 - 4
FE 3 3 4 7 7 - 4
DJ 5 6 6 7 7 5 4 6 6 -
CA 3 3 4 5 6 7 6 -
BX 6 6 8 4 -
CL 6 6 7 -
SA 6 5 7 3 -
DI 4 4 6 -
- Runs away screaming “WooHooHoOooo” :looney:
Dude, Honda loses 2-8 to Ken? So now the much-improved-against-fireballs R Honda loses just as badly to R Ken as ST Honda did to ST Ryu or DeeJay? Dude. …Dude. And furthermore I think that Honda-Blanka is 5-5.
Not to sound contrarian… but there’s no way on God’s Beautifully Green Earth that Cammy / Honda is only 4-6… Only in my greatest dreams…
For what its worth, here’s my take on Cammy’s matchups
vs. Ryu 3.5 - 6.5 (Oh look… fireball traps…)
vs. Ken 3 - 7 (better DP and actually slower fireball help Ken)
vs. Honda 2-8 (Pure lard grease…)
vs. Chun 5-5 (Really pretty even)
vs. Blanka 6-4 (My kick is better than your bite)
vs. Zangief 5.5-4.5 (If I can stay out of the corner)
vs. Guile 3.5-6.5 (Oh sing a song of stuffed…stuffed…stuffed…)
vs. Hawk 6.5-3.5 (Thrust Kick makes this difficult for the great totem)
vs. Fei 5-5 (Crouching Cammy > Chicken Wing)
vs. Dee Jay 4-6 (Max out… AGAIN???)
vs. Boxer 6-4 (this is purely my experience…)
vs. Claw 4.5-5.5 (Wall Dive??? AGAIN???)
vs. Sagat 5-5 (Really pretty even and easier to close distance)
vs. Dictator 4-6 (Who’s offense gets started first… they win)
Total score: +63.5 (OUCH!!!)
How many times is this debate going to come up? Well, I’ll bite again anyway.
For me, it’s blatantly obvious that the new dive is better than the old one. Just the fact that you have no fear of retaliation if it’s blocked is enough for me to push it over the old one. I don’t know if Hawk players can’t adjust their style to the new dive and his overall strategy now or what.
I hated “all or nothing” Hawk. He was such a boring character to use. Remix Hawk is so much more versatile and fun to me and possibly with the exception of Honda/Blanka, his impossible matchups in ST are definitely winnable now.
All of hondas non-block reactions to fireball can be swept or fierce dpd. The fierce dp gives ken the advantage over ryu here. I give honda the edge over blanka because honda feels safer in the match holding down-back, whereas blanka knows he will have to take a risk to do damage, plus he loses his greatest strength, his tick throw.
VirtuaFighter, you said it yourself a while back that you always get knocked out of your ticks when you’re using Hawk, so its pretty obvious you don’t have any room to speak when you’re saying R.Hawk sucks. It sounds like you’re the one who sucks.
I can’t wait till I go to Evo and tear 3/4 of my competition apart, and have people tell me R.Hawk still sucks. Hell, the new Dive tears Guile apart.
Damdai I take it, in your chart if there is no number it means the matchup is even? If so how is Sim vs Claw even? Also how is Sim vs Boxer even? I think you are right on with all the other vs matchups for Sim.
Thanks