^^^ The Jab headbut is just another tool that can be used in 2-3 situations (depending on the character). They may be different, but it has just as many limitations as any other option that can help you close the distance between Honda and the “fire-baller.” Just as any tool, it has its place and function. No more, no less.
BTW: Info on thespecials:
Both take ~ 54 frames to charge.
LK Buttslam: Total 57 frames. 21 frames invincibility.
LP Head-butt: Total 61 frames. 11 frames invincibility, then 20 Frames of FB cancel. (If what was stated by Sirlin is true, that the fire ball cancellation only occurs once he is airborne.)
I am not sure which travels farther.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for reading!
~fatboy :china:
jchensor wrote a good explanation about how the jab headbutt is useful, but mostly the thing is, jab headbutt is punished differently than jump-ins, buttslams, or floating punches, so Honda having that extra option means it’s that much harder to punish him.
In addition to that, to punish the jab headbutt, you have to commit to it fairly early, you can’t just leisurely wait, take a sip of coffee, read the newspaper, take a nap, then wake up and sweep Honda like you can with buttslams.
A note about the LK buttslam: it will very often not be able to clear slow-to-medium fireballs, especially shoto & Sagat fireballs. It’s pretty useful against Guile & Deejay, though.
Jab headbutt is extra useful against Sagat, since it can punish Sagat from really far away and since the buttslams (and jump-ins, kind of) are extra vulnerable to high tiger shots. Jab headbutt alone does a lot to close the matchup gap in Honda-Sagat, bringing it to 5.5-4.5 or 6-4 (in Sagat’s favor). It also helps a bit vs Dhalsim, because the headbutt is a nice option select that beats limbs and fireballs. vs shotos is moderately useful. Vs Guile & Deejay is rarely very useful though.
Also, a lot of people are underestimating the power of Honda’s super, which has greatly increased since ST! Even with all his other nerfs in vs non-fireballers, that single buff does a lot to keep Honda comfortable. It’s a great buff to all of his matchups.
I guess I should go a couple of pages back and find out why… (I bet I can guess) But why are ppl even arguing over whether or not the new headbutt is good additon to Honda’s character?
You’d have to be a complete ASS to even try agrue this topic. Just shows you need attention…
Alex wolfe said “jab headbutt is broken patch that shit” but this was like 1 or 2 months after launch I wonder if he still feels that way.
It’s sad to see so many crybabys claiming honda as high or even toptier just because there’s an influx of honda players (some of whom have lag on their side =P) he was midtier in st he’s midtier in hdr I thought this would be common sense by now.
Slaps now have a hitbox in front making them more vulnerable but I don’t know sometimes they feel better then they were in vst. Maybe it’s because they come out faster now?
For the zillionth time, Honda’s new jab headbutt is a tool in footsies. If you’re doing it from 3/4 screen, you’re using it wrong. Time was, you could spend all this time getting into footsie range against a fireball character, and then if you blocked or got hit by a fireball you’d get pushed out all over again. Well, now your fireball opponent has to be much more wary about throwing a fireball there on account of jab headbutt.
The nerf to the slaps’ hitbox is pretty much a negligible change. I definitely think they’re better than ST, because now you can hide fierce hands in other moves much more easily. And yeah, the super helps Honda out, more than was necessary in my opinion. Does Honda really need to juggle opponents who are jumping at him for so much life?
I was about to come in here and say pretty much exactly this. People using jab headbutt as a way to “get in” by eating a fireball are just going to eat another fireball, the recovery isn’t exactly phenomenal.
I actually use Honda’s jab headbutt from fullscreen to eat fireballs with some success, but only by anticipating the fireball - doing it on reaction doesn’t work well. If you can anticipate the fireball and jab headbutt really early then you recover fast enough to do something else.
Obviously it’s even better when you can actually hit the other guy, heh. But fullscreen jab headbutt is useful sometimes.
Though UltraDavid is 100% right that 3/4th screen jab headbutt (not fullscreen, can’t hit the opponent with headbutt) against non-Sagats is mostly akin to hitting the lose button.
There should be little argument that Honda has improved noticeably. Definitely a good call on the power of his super; I especially love the irony that it is so much better, even though you can’t store and surprise with it like before. His HHS has a larger hitbox, so what? How many people leave it out long enough to matter? It has a speed, range, and damage that few individual moves can match. He can get around fireballs a bit better now, and his stored Oochio (though less potent) is still a monster threat. Best of all…he’s really fun to play.
The question at hand, though, isn’t whether or not he has improved; it’s whether or not he has any more favorable matches against the rest of the cast. That is the very definition of a tiered placement, after all. So please, share any examples or evidence you can give convincingly of Honda either beating a character he couldn’t before, or getting beat by someone he used to trash. I still don’t think he belongs in the top, but hey, maybe he has bumped up a spot or two…
I’m actually not sure about that. By that reasoning, a 3-7 matchup would have the same effect than a 4.5-5.5 matchup, but clearly it matters which one it is.
For instance, I believe Zangief-Honda is a much more reasonable matchup in HDR than it was in ST (though Honda still has a clear advantage). Weaker slaps (less damage, they can be shut down by low jabs) and a fast running bear grab (don’t laugh, it’s surprisingly effective!) help Zangief to be able to win it. An unwinnable matchup like ST Zangief-Honda can damage a character’s tier a lot!
I have no real opinion yet on whether Honda is really good, or just regular good.
His jab headbutt has made me rethink fireball pressure with fireball characters, but other than that I don’t really feel like the match up has changed that much for me. When I first started playing HDR, the jab headbutt bothered me a lot. But now I know to be more careful when he’s close enough to jab headbutt me. His slaps have been the one thing that’s killed me. And even with easier slaps I feel like I’m dealing with a similar problem as before (completely from personal experience).
Don’t get me wrong, he’s still a hard match up for me, but he’s always been a hard match up for me. It’s also worth mentioning that I play Ryu, Ken, Boxer, Claw, DJ, and Guile. I haven’t really haven’t played in a while so I might be out of the loop. If so, please fill me in. Or at the very least tell me I’ve been out of the loop.
3-7 versus 4.5-5.5 is definitely an improvement, but it’s still a losing record. Unless he has enough of these changes against the entire cast to put him over someone else’s overall record (especially since so few of the cast actually got worse…hi Chun-Li), his tier placement shouldn’t move much at all.
The jab headbutt is a great midrange tool, used from just outside of the range of his normals and HHS. Any farther than that and it’s punishment waiting to happen, unless they telegraph the fireball from a mile away, plain and simple.
I think that Sirlin did an excellent job of executing his ultimate goal of compressing the tiers without moving them around drastically. Matches like Zangief vs Honda or Cammy vs…anyone else demonstrate this pretty well. I don’t agree with all of the changes made, but I love the overall result.
I don’t see how using the jab headbutt at full screen against fireballers even after reacting it is necessarily “the wrong way to use it”. I don’t know how anyone would be able to punish you for doing that at that range, although of course using it in footsie range is better cuz you hit with it.
If you jab headbutt on reaction, your enemy recovers a good half-second before you can. Shotos can throw another fireball (you can only block it) or walk-up sweep you, Chun-Li can do walk-up throw 100% of the time, Dhalsim can just punch you, Deejay can slide your recovery, Sagat’s fireballs are just too fast to jab headbutt on reaction. Guile is probably the safest guy to do reaction jab headbutt against, I forgot what he can do to punish?
I would think that, out of anybody that you wouldn’t want to Jab Headbutt from full screen on, you wouldn’t want to against Guile. He still has the quickest recovery out of anybody when throwing a projectile. Does Guile gain more options to punish Honda with if he decides to follow a Sonic Boom in with a whiffed Bazooka Knee or even a jump? Does he only get enough time to walk up and attack?
Right, Guile can throw medium speed sonic booms then either follow them up with a backfist or just sit back. The projectile comes in so fast, Balrog has to guess whether Guile’s going to follow it up or not.
