The inevitable tier thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
841

This isn’t a completely subjective question like “what’s your favorite color”, though. The question specifically is which characters are better than other characters when two equal opponents play at some specified skill level (usually in tier lists it’s assumed that the skill level is “good” or “great”, somewhere along those lines). There’s some subjectivity in there, yes, but also quite a bit of objectivity (comparing poke speeds, hitboxes, damage potential, etc.)

It’s as if I were to say, hey, I think the Detroit Lions would beat the Steelers 8 times if they played 10 games. Most everyone who follows football would disagree with me, and rejecting their arguments as just being “popular opinion” isn’t going to cut it, because there are clear indicators (win-loss record being one) that what I’m saying is faulty.

The consensus is that Ken beats Honda and this has usually played itself out in tournament play. Saying that your Honda “does fairly well against good Guiles and especially Kens” isn’t convincing unless you have some evidence that your conception of a “good Ken” is equivalent to or better than the people that you’re arguing against. Either you play them yourself and prove your point or you point them out to a Ken that you’ve beaten and have them play that guy - if that Ken turns out to do well against them, then you have evidence for your argument by proxy.

Alternately, you can describe your strategies against Ken and point out why Ken’s responses are unsatisfactory. Or why the changes in HD Remix substantially change the fight. This might turn into a bunch of theory fighter but at least you’re giving some backing behind your statement.

Bird and Jordan talked some MAD shit back in the day. It’s not a nice thing to do, but what does it have to do with people’s skills?

As for the “community knowledge”… there’s a lot of it, but it is scattered here and there throughout several long threads so it’s a bit cumbersome to search for. But it does exist.

842

Just because you beat Kens and Guiles with Honda does not mean Honda vs Guile and Honda vs Ken is actually even. Just because the tiers are stacked a certain way doesn’t mean it will always play out that way. If you are just better than your opponent then you will usually win.

843

If you think Honda doesn’t lose to Chun that bad, I will play you. I’m not the best Chun-Li player ever, but I think anyone who has played me will tell you that my Chun is definitely not BAD by any stretch.

The fact is, Honda still dies to fireballers really bad (it’s easier to get in, but it’s harder to maintain his offense, so his buffs are canceled out by his nerfs in this situation). Also, he remains at pretty much the same potency for beating non-fireball characters (all the changes made to help non-fireball characters don’t matter, because the real issue is that he can just turtle and torpedo non-fireball characters to death, and that move was never nerfed). If anything, I think Honda is one of the few characters who stayed in almost the exact same place in terms of potential.

844

I will also beat your impatient honda with hawk, josh. yeah, i said it.

845

Agreed.

Also, there seems to be some misunderstanding about what a tier list is supposed to be. It’s not about if random guy A using X can beat random guy B using Y. It’s supposed to gauge the potential of each character. It’s the theoretical ranking of each character at their best vs every other character at their best.

Traditionally, this has been done using data from tournaments or by asking the perceived best players with each character how they think each match-up with every other character goes and then trying to widdle down the discrepencies.

Here’s what’s not useful data in discussing tier lists:

  • I do OK against “most people” who play XXX online, so that’s an easy match
  • I haven’t seen a good XXX online, so he must not be good
  • I can’t beat some really good XXX player, so XXX must be awesome
  • Anyone can now do XXX’s moves, which magically makes him good
  • Placing characters based on ST, when in HD they are way better/worse
  • Wrong assessment of changes in HD (ex. It’s easy for Honda to get in on Ryu)
  • Posting a drastically different list than most people with no explanations

Currently, there’s a lot of data in this thread that’s just plain wrong. There’s also a lot of course thinking on characters and match-ups from people who, I assume, don’t main those characters. For example, yes it’s slightly easier for Honda to get in on shotos now. It’s still hard though. However, it’s also a lot harder to deal out big damage now if he does get in. Not only does his Ochio bounce back, but it used to have huge dizzy potential. He also lost his stored super. Is his match-up easier or harder against shotos now? I honestly don’t know. But I know there’s a lot of factors to take into consideration. You’d have to ask some expert Honda(s) to find out.

On the character front, I hear a lot of people saying Chun is really good. How is that possible? She got nerfed pretty bad. Her super is way worse, her cross-up neckbreaker’s gone, it’s easy to accidentally do SBK on instant jump kicks, and you can’t use her old air SBK to build meter in the corner against shotos and Sagat. Also, almost everyone else got better. Maybe I missed something and she really did get better. What I think is more likely though is that most people play online and slight lag might make her seem better than she is. She’s also relatively easy to use, so you might run into more decent Chun’s than other characters. But again, you’d have to ask some expert Chun(s) to really find out.

If you guys really want to come up with a good tier list you should get some top players with each character involved and try to make up match-up charts like this one or this one. Or gather tournament data like this one. As is, I’m not willing to put too much stock into any of these lists, even the ones that make sense to me personally.

846

You really need to learn to read and comprehend. I wrote that I couldn’t agree with the poster’s list.

847

Does anybody else have to stop reading his posts right about there?

EDIT: forgot the :rofl:

848

I’m not an expert Chun, but I at least main her (and I don’t think I suck too bad or anything). Chun got definitely, definitely worse.

  • Super does less damage, one of the six hits WHIFFS, and on some characters, TWO hits whiff. To top it off, you can only juggle Upkicks for one hit. That’s THREE WAYS in which the super does less damage.

  • The new SBK not traveling as far horizontally before makes it an even worse desperation reversal than before, because if you get hit out of it, you’re almost guaranteed to be way close to your opponent, meaning you’ve achieved nothing by SBK’ing out of it.

  • Lightning Legs are easier to hit in the middle, making the match against M.Bison a little harder, because he can hit Chun out of Lightning Legs with Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kick - not consistently or reliably, but enough to make you think twice about pinning him in the corner solely with Lightning Legs.

  • DF+Hk can’t cross up anymore.

  • Air SBK has to be the worst nerf though. No minimum height requirement plus the ability to down-charge makes it very easy to do on accident. Also, the floatiness of it makes it hard to use it for meter build during corner fireball traps, a MUST for fighting Ryu (it used to be imperative for Sagat, but not so much, now). Also, the fact that the fall to the ground is part of the move makes it worse; in ST, the animation could end before Chun hit the ground, allowing her to block immediately as she landed; she can’t do that anymore.

…And yet, even with all those nerfs, Chun is still very solid:

  1. Her super got stupidly nerfed. But hey, it STILL does as much damage as everyone else’s super; plus, if you do it in the corner, you can juggle with the new SBK and deal roughly the damage that her super used to do. So, yeah. Worse, but hardly BAD. Hell, with it’s storing ability, it’s still one of the best supers in the game, and she can still use it to shut down a lot of characters.

  2. It sucks that the new ground SBK is retarded for escaping crossups now; but at least it still WORKS. It was never really a crucial tactic either, so while it’s ‘worse’, it hardly hurts her game.

  3. So Lightning Legs aren’t the best option against Bison anymore. Boo fucking hoo. She can still pretty much kill him with just four attacks. Lightning Legs was just overkill.

  4. Neckbreaker can’t cross up anymore, but christ, did she really need it? Personally, I never used this move like "oh, man I hope this crosses up and I get a knockdown! I would much rather get the mixup of “am I gonna throw you for a shitload of life, or am I gonna do C.Mk, S.Hp and dizzy you?” Way better than a few measly knockdowns. You could argue that “oh, well you get the damage of all those knockdowns and THEN the mixup!” Sure, that’s true against people who don’t know how to deal with it; but, as far as I’m concerned, every time you do it is another chance for them to reversal you out of it (and a lot of characters could).

  5. Air SBK. This is the only one that I can’t defend. Why the fuck the Air SBK was made like this, I’ll never know. I will say one thing, though: It’s still possible to use Air SBK for its old use; but you have to be fucking PRO at that shit.

So, yeah. A super that does something like 50% life instead of 80% life (let’s face it, they’re probably dead if you hit them with it anyways), Lightning Legs being a less viable option in one of her already most lopsided matchups, and a few other inconsequential nerfs. None of this matters. The only nerf that SERIOUSLY hurts her game is the Air SBK.

So, I ask you, the good players of SF2 that main other people, just how much easier is Chun-Li to defeat? As far as I’m concerned, the only matches that got uncontestably harder were Ryu and Ken, which are still very, very manageable matches (6-4, big whoop). Besides that, her next hardest matches (Sagat, Fei Long) got much EASIER, and none of the other ones really changed much. If someone really wants to debate that with any particular character, go ahead. But, the above is my case. As someone who mains Chun-Li, I’d say she’s worse, but still roughly in the same spot in the tiers.

849

I’ll bite. I’ll imagine that my stretch of a top-8 placing at California Regionals(Yes, it was a stretch. If more top players showed, I probably wouldn’t be top 8) qualifies me as a top player. So, I do admit that that’s largely debatable…but whatever.

So yeah, I think that Chun is a much easier match-up for Dhalsim(Who is also nerfed to hell btw, to everyone who automatically puts him in top tier). Does this make the match-up really easy? Hell no. But I do think it’s easier. Yes. I also think that Ryu, who used to beat her, beats her even more now.

Don’t get me wrong. I think Chun is still viable. I think that everyone is viable. I don’t agree with every change, but I do think that Sirlin was successful in compressing the tiers. I think almost every character is viable in this game. Yes, there are still some bad match-ups, but every character has those. All in all, I think it’s close. That’s part of what makes these tier lists so hard.

Still, as far as tier lists goes, Chun got worse. Period. Most people got better. She got worse. I see zero reason for her to move up in the ranks. Moving down is the only rational choice I can see. She’s far from bad, but I don’t see any reasonable motives to move her up. Do you?

850

I don’t automatically put Dhalsim in the top tier. I NEVER automatically put anybody in any tier spot. I play with all the characters constantly, I use their new toys and come up with tricks of my own against good players, and evaluate their ranking that way. Some ppl say “How can you come up with a tier listing so quickly?” Quickly? I’ve been compiling and evaluating each character for the last 3 months, since Remix came out. Ask anybody who plays me, they will say I do use every character.

While I agree that Sirlin did succeed in compressing the tiers, he didn’t succeed in improving the bottom tier, which is what the goal of Remix should have been IMO.

851

Not to sound hypocritical, but you didn’t put any reasons why you think the matchup versus Chun-Li is easier for Dhalsim. I’ll put a few reasons why I think it’s not harder or easier, but roughly the same:

Chun’s game plan is to stay back, throwing Kikokens and a lot of S.Lps. Kikokens build meter and help her control space in the front, whereas S.Lp beats almost every jump in that Dhalsim can throw at her (particularly, the drills and I think it’s J.Hk?). When an opportunity presents itself, Chun should jump in with J.Mk, as Dhalsim has a hard time beating this. From there, she can do a blocked C.Mk, and either combo it into C.Hk, do a late C.Hk (stuffs anything he tries to do on the ground), or go in for the throw. Super is moderately useful in this match for going through Yoga Fires and anti-airing drills, but for the most part, Chun does her damage with her blocked C.Mk guessing game, and hitting Dhalsim with Kikokens.

In this way, almost none of Chun’s nerfs hurt her in this matchup:

  • Super is not her primary way of dealing damage, and doesn’t come up as an option too often in the first place.

  • You’ll probably never ever use SBKs in this matchup.

  • Lightning Legs are just as useful as before in this matchup, since a lot of what Chun uses Lightning Legs for is to deter Dhalsim from doing low attacks. …not to mention it’s just not something she uses a whole lot in this matchup.

  • DF+Hk not crossing up does make things a little worse in this matchup, but only because Dhalsim has no real way of reversing it. In the grand scheme of things, it sets up her guessing game perfectly, which is vital in this match.

On the contrary, Dhalsim has had a few nerfs as well:

  • He can no longer noogie trap Chun-Li for free, which is kind of cool, but I don’t think it’s very easy for Dhalsim to set this up against Chun in the first place.

  • The super is weaker easier to punish, although admittedly, this was never a huge deal in ST either.

What I’m driving at here is, although both Chun AND Dhalsim got nerfed, none of their nerfs apply heavily to this matchup. Dhalsim is usually not noogie trapping the hell out of Chun or trying to land his super too often. Nor is Chun-Li devastated by the damage nerf on her super - and hell, she doesn’t even USE a lot of her other tools that got nerfed in this match.

So, overall, I’d say that since neither Dhalsim’s or Chun’s nerfs apply heavily in this matchup, it’s probably still about even.

I don’t really move her up in the tiers, either; I just don’t bring her that far down. She was solid, at the top of 2nd tier in ST, and some top players considered her top - even #1. So, now, she’s DEFINITELY not top, and maybe she’s not at the top of 2nd tier…but I’d really like to be convinced that a lot of her matchups are worse now. So far, my synopsis is that two matches are worse, and two are better.

852

You’re right. It was lame of me not to list any reasons. And I’d say everything you wrote is pretty spot on. With solid play, most of these nerfs never come into play. However, I do think that’s what makes this match just slightly easier for Sim. All of the changes in remix force each of them to play a more honest and solid match.

In ST, I think it was more likely for Chun to pull off a random win with neckbreaker shenanigans or a random super. In remix, Sim doesn’t have to worry about either of those, which makes it easier to focus on what he should be doing.

On the Sim side, I don’t think the nerf to the noogie throw is a big deal. I don’t think that was every a solid strategy to begin with. The slightly better shenanigan of crossing her up with a slide after a noogie still works, so not a huge loss there. His super being worse does mean that he doesn’t completely shut down her ability to jump in when he has meter, but I don’t think it’s enough to really matter much.

That makes sense to me. I do think she’s still pretty solid, just not quite as scary as she was in ST. I’m curious, who do you think her better/worse matches are now?

853

Well, her notably worse matches are Ryu and Ken. Both of them now have a much easier time fireball trapping Chun, and Ken’s new DPs make a lot of trouble for her. It’s not as easy to bait/punish Ken’s DPs, and since Ken actually recovers from fireballs faster than Ryu, it’s a lot scarier to jump over fireballs on reaction, especially with his new 3/4 screen Hp Shoryuken. Still, I’d say that Ryu’s matchup is still 6-4 Ryu - you were pretty boned if you got in the corner no matter what, so this isn’t anything new, just a bit harder to deal with. Ken is definitely up to 6-4 Ken, since I think the dynamic of the match has changed slightly.

Her notably easier matches are Sagat and Fei Long. I think Sagat’s nerf is obvious - being able to jump over Sagat’s fireballs without getting DP’ed EVERY_SINGLE_TIME makes the match less about running away and building meter (and honestly, if it WERE like that in STHD, she’d be screwed), and more about properly anticipating Sagat’s next move. Granted, this still isn’t a terribly easy match, but I’d say it’s quite a bit better, like 5-5.

Fei Long is kind of a debated match. I’ve never seen top Chun players agree on this match as far as I can remember. Basically, the biggest trouble in this match is that Chun’s only way of safely dealing with Chicken Wing was neutral J.Lk. So, if Fei cornered Chun, it was incredibly hard for her to get out. Now, Chicken Wing can’t start an inescapable trap, and you can’t even combo afterwards. What this means is that it’s safer for Chun to try and punish it with S.Hk, which will beat it clean if you do it early enough. Even without that, Fei’s Chicken Wing nerf is much worse at keeping her trapped, anyways. For that reason, this match is just a bit less scary. I’d say it’s definitively 6-4 Chun, now.

And now, for matches that got “kind of harder” and “kind of easier”, i.e ones where I don’t think the differences actually change the match points:

  • Guile’s offense is a bit better, which is pretty important, because Guile is better off eventually going on the offensive in this match. Still, I don’t think this really, really makes the match that much worse.

  • Honda is a bit easier now. So what if Honda can jab torpedo through fireballs? All that means is that Chun has to zone him from 3/4 screen away instead of full screen. She can throw him out of his recovery every time. Plus, you’re not totally screwed when he lands his Oicho Throw. The reality of the situation, though, is that you’re still in deep shit if he can land one. Still, it’s a hair easier now.

  • Bison (Dictator) is a little harder now, just because Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kicks can beat Lightning Legs sometimes. But, so what? Just use Kikokens now.

  • Vega is also a hair bit harder for the same reason - his rolling attack can occasionally hit Chun out of Lightning Legs. Still, Lightning Legs almost never loses to it, so the risk/reward is still heavily in Chun’s favor.

  • Cammy is technically harder…but really? Not in any way that matters. So, now you can’t throw her out of EVERY blocked Cannon Drill, and you can’t throw a Kikoken from point blank range…not that you ever would. This match is still in favor of Chun, pretty big time.

  • Hawk is certainly easier, now. It’s less scary to try and trade with Hawk Dives when you know you won’t be knocked down, although it’s unable to be punished on block, now. Also, you’re not sunk if you get tick thrown, because Hawk has no option select 360 anymore. Still, Hawk has really good normals - at least, against Chun - so it’s still not such a cakewalk. Just, now, Hawk doesn’t win the match because he successfully anticipated a fireball with a Hawk Dive, or traded one of Chun’s normals with a foot sweep.

854

if honda players are using jab torpedo to eat fireballs from 3/4 or full screen they’re idiots.

torpedo is so potent because in situations like after blocked torpedo, jab torpedo will beat the immediate fireball fireballers would throw and hit them in the face.

jab torpedo is great, but it needs to connect. it’s fatal if it’s not gonna connect. this is why guile is the hardest fireballer for honda to beat. guile recovers from SB so early that it’s hard as hell to hit him out of sb with jab torpedo. against ryu/ken/dj/chun it’s much more practical. from max range, it’s just oldschool honda, straight jump fierce/short sumo splash to get into a practical range to poke/splash/jump into rush down.

I’m not saying honda vs. chun isn’t rough. It’s rough, but to make a point about honda doing shitty jab torpedo is retarded, cause that’s just a poor player. jab torpedo is really really good, because it eats everything up from just inside half screen.

If anything, despite oochio followup being severely raped, jab torpedo actually makes the corner trap even stronger. If they jump -> jab torpedo, if they poke -> jab torpedo -> if they uppercut and it whiffs -> free, if they try and fireball -> jab torpedo. If they wait and block -> jab torpedo is safe, if they block too long -> stutter step oochio.

additionally honda’s super is much more effective now. free knockdown corner setup, stops fireballs cold from 3/4 screen.

Honda doesn’t die a horrible death to fireballers. He’s just at disadvantage.

855

Sure, Jab Torpedo from far away is dumb, but it’s just as dumb as the idea of throwing a fireball from close enough range for Honda to Torpedo through it and hit his opponent before they can block. Chun - or hell, any fireball character - will never get into that range if they can help it, and ESPECIALLY with charge characters, it’s very easy to sit on your charge when you’re in range to be hit by his jab torpedo, and wait to throw a fireball until he jumps (to make them land on it). If anything, MAYBE the jab torpedo helps out against Qcf fireballers, but a for a good player using a charge fireball, Jab Torpedo is just a new way in which Honda can pass over a fireball and get swept/thrown afterwards.

Also, for the way Jab Torpedo helps mind games, I disagree. For one, if you’re close enough to play the corner trap game, it’s VERY easy to jump over Honda. Honda needs to lock down an opponent with so much other stuff (all great stuff), that Jab Torpedo is really not some sort of shut-down option. Besides that, you have ButtSlam for people retarded enough to fireball at point blank - which also doubles as a deterrent for those who would hastily try and jump out of a corner trap.

856

Actually, it’s the other way around here. Whereas no decent claw player would roll at Chun anyway, Chun gains a lot out of claw not being able to use his wall dive loop, although probably not enough to change the matchup ratio. And no, reversal spinning bird kick and her air normals don’t beat it.

857

The main reason I disagree with this (and also why I didn’t bring it up, heh) is that Claw’s wall dives still knock down if his opponent is airborne. The problem here is that Chun-Li doesn’t have any reliable way to deal with wall dive throws that I know of, so if Chun sits there and waits to block/counter, you can throw her. If she tries to reversal and fails, she gets knocked down. Both of these allow Claw to continue doing wall dives just fine.

I’ll admit that I might just be ignorant on how to deal with Wall Dive throws - it’s the one part of this match that has always baffled me, and it accounted for at least a few of my bad decisions when we used to play on GGPO :stuck_out_tongue: But, the bottom line is that, provided I’m right in that there’s no reliable way to deal with wall dive throws, the dive loops are almost as potent against Chun-Li as they were before.

Completely Unrelated Off-Topic Note: I just realized your name and avatar reference Warsong/Langrisser. That’s rad, I’m a big nerd for that series. Anyways :stuck_out_tongue:

858

Yeah, wall dives are almost as potent in that match. Each time claw attempts a wall dive against a standing Chun Li though, he at least exposes himself to a possible misdirected dive and counter. And if Chun near the corner, the Chun player has a good chance of stopping another dive even when hit. Sure, all this is minor but it’s still a slight advantage in a very common situation whereas before you’d be down on the ground with the only options to reversal or block.

And yup, nice to know there’s another Langrisser fan here. :tup:

859

[media=youtube]P5eYv2gzCY4"[/media]. Talk about a broken character.

860

no shit he can build meter AND fucking turtle

what a bitch

akuma for life