I’ve been busy on dat sf4 ignoring sthd but we’re going to have to play soon so I can change your mind:wink:
DJ has the most “good” normals: st strong is great aa, cr mp is a gdlke poke, jlp has crazy priority and great for tick throws, crhk is nice after fb and a decent poke, crlp is a good poke mixup as well as for your crossup combos, jmk is gdlke fro crossups.
Don’t forget he can nullify fb’s with machine gun which means he can retain the back charge and throw out his own fb after so he has a little easier a time against non charge fb characters then other charge characters.
Looks like people are agreeing with my initial tier list.
You are either an amazing idiot or an epic troll. If it’s the latter, I applaud you.
But really, T.Hawk still has way too much trouble getting in against anyone top/high tier.
My previous tierlist was:
I’m starting to feel more like:
-Honda isn’t quite A tier. Maybe high B. The jab torpedo undeiably does help him against fireball matchups, but it’s like putting a band-aid on an axe wound… it helps but he still has a long way to go to being even in those matchups.
-Sagat also might be top of the A, or maybe very bottom of S. He really shouldn’t be getting thrown that much so the ability to tech doesn’t mean too much to him, and his shots are slower and his DPs do less damage. His super and the fact that his shots are still really good keep him afloat though.
-Dee Jay is definitely solid in the bottom of the A tier. So is Dictator.
-I might have overestimated Blanka… I feel he’s very C tier now.
-I feel like I might be sleeping on Cammy. She has a lot of tools and good mingames, I could see her sneaking up to the bottom of the B tier.
-Now that Claw doesn’t have those ridiculous knockdown loops he might be A tier.
You guys are funny. I think the ranking shouldn’t go below B-tier, In general people think Cammy and Fei are bottom, they still good as hell though. Whoever put T.Hawk in bottom is insane.
I pretty much agree with gridman’s list, except for a few things:
I agree with Claw’s rank, I just think I’d put him in second tier. Dhalsim and Boxer are in a league of their own.
Other than that, I think Guile is quite a lot better - good enough to be second tier. I think Blanka got better, but really not THAT much better.
As far as mid-tier goes, Ken owns that shit. He’s a million times easier to use, his Shoryukens are a good mix of N Ken and O Ken, and his worst nerf - the Knee Bash damage and range - is so, so, sooo slight that it doesn’t hurt him at all in my opinion. I’ve done damage testing, and the Knee Bash frequently does the same damage in ST and HDR - only very rarely does it do a smidge less damage. Ken didn’t become much better, but I think it’s crazy not to put him at the first or second slot of mid tier.
…I also just don’t know where to put Sagat. Sagat is the only character I have yet to meet a high level player for in HDR. I feel like I’ve seen about 95-99% of all other characters’ potential, but not Sagat. I think he’s still good, but he took a REALLY big hit losing O Sagat fireballs.
And lastly, you people who think Chun is mid tier now are fucking insane. I’ve said it a million times and I’ll say it again: Of course she got WORSE. But seriously? Do you guys really, really think she’s WORSE than E Honda, Guile, Dic, and Sagat? If so, you guys are really overestimating the damage done by her nerfs, because even with a gimpy super and worse defense vs corner traps (already her biggest weakness), she’s still off the hook.
Matchups prove sagat isn’t toptier but he’s definitely better then mid tier:wink:
Matchups also prove honda is nowhere tops so anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn’t know how to fight against him effectively and jab headbutt destroying fb’s really isn’t that good. He’s solid mid tier though.
Too much truth. I dont think claw is as good as sim and rog but any person Ive told that too (outside SRK) thinks im fucking crazy.
Ive played brian many times online / offline and obviously hes guile is incredible but I dont see guile peaking too much. Yeah he got helped with a mixup after a blocked boom but guile was never too offense orientated.
Sagat I dont see going too high. His hitbox on his arms is ginormous and some characters can jump on him all day and make it a living hell since his hitbox is FUCKING HUGE and to dp them out you have to crouch and do it deep as all hell.
Chun is just below the top tier. No question about it. Same with ryu.
LOL @ everyone putting 'Gief so low on the totem pole. He’s now more easily “abused” than ever.
I’ll admit, I’m not highly experienced with 'Hawk, and I’ve yet to play extensively with others who are high level with him, but from what I’ve seen “thus far” IMO he’s not middle tier.
Why is everyone saying Blanka is high??? I’m not even referring to ST, I’m talking about HD-Remix. Cammy is good in this game, better than ST.
I put Ken low b/c, well he’s still low. Ken is one of my main characters, and yes they’ve seriously upgraded his jab and fierce DP but he’s just not that grand (still). Ken has a slight disadvantage in most of his match-ups because he is still one of the most vulnerable characters in the game.
I guess I just abuse the hell out of people with Honda, and when the right player is using Honda he’s almost unstoppable unless you’re playing a supreme Ryu or DJ.
When it comes to the middle-tiers this is when it becomes very debatable and not so clear-cut. If you don’t agree wtih how I’m ranking them, that’s OK! I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. Unfortunately, for those of you with a stick up your ass, maybe you are (which it seems, and that’s just sad). Just STFU, and play with your own tier. If you don’t want to talk or debate tiers, just GTFO and die. How 'bout them apples?
gief stil has the roughest time getting in. doesnt matter how easy his shit to do is now if you cant get close enough to do it.
hawk is middle tier. id love to prove it to you. in fact if you think hes worse then middle, when i get through with you you’ll think hes top tier.
blanka has got a lot better. no nerf in bite range, solid pokes, safe balls, scarier mixups, easier electricity.
ken is middle. easy.
honda is not almost unstoppable in the right hands. kusomondo gets raped by ryus all the time. and still will. this is a natural bad matchup for honda and always will be.
I told you Honda is almost unstoppable in the right hands UNLESS he’s against a supreme Ryu or DJ.
I don’t see how anyone can play this game against a very strong turtling Guile and not say he’s close to the top. Guile’s sonic boom takes less than a single second to charge… they come out like water.
'Gief can get in close. He’s vulnerable when he uses the backhand, but he has a much easier time getting into fireball players unless your name is Sagat. I would almost say the best ranked players are 'Gief players… I know Ranked is BS… just saying…
You saying ryu n dj are honda’s only bad matchups is enough to invalidate the rest of your post as well as any future posts but for the sake of thoroughness I’ll continue.
Not to sound elitist but you must not be very knowledgeable about the game with posts like these. Matchups is what determines tiers this is FACT, With what said how can you say guile is top in remix when he was definitively mid in vanilla st? because making that claim is basically saying a better rh flash, easier super, n new overhead all of a sudden shoot him up from mid to top and if that is your stance you’re severely mistaken. Guile got better for sure but better then akuma, gat, claw, boxer, or sim let alone having a higher ratio of good matchups? Nope. LOL @ guile’s sb’s taking a second to charge:rofl:
Of course geif can get in close but that’s like saying a 1 legged man can win a race. Green hand requires anticipation of the fb and even then an fb can still knock you back on recovery so geif still has to work a lot harder to get in then an fb character does to keep him out. Once again matchups prove geif is nowhere near hightier he didn’t even receive any real buffs he can consistently rely on to give him W’s he couldn’t get before he just got a handful of helpful gimmicks.
Have facts or some kind of evidence before you post blindly god you remind me of me when I joined:rofl:
LOL, you just sound like a douche bag. If you can’t reply with common courtsey then why even reply at all? Who said you or anyone else (including me) is the master chief when it comes to HD Remix discussion? Mind you, the game hasn’t even been out long enough for you to throw disses left and right as if your sh*t don’t stink.
Irnoically, you’re the one coming off as lacking knowledge, and more-so just seems to me as if you’re getting your rocks off playing e-Thug on the internets.
You don’t agree with me, that’s fine. I respect your stance, what I don’t agree with is your delivery of that stance. Grow up, then debate. You’d be much more valuable around here.
Of the characters you listed only Claw I didn’t rank as high as Guile. You mentioend Akuma… but why debate him in teirs? You act as if my Guile Top 5 debate is just fruitless and I’m an idiot for thinking as such… if Guile is not top 5 and we throw Akuma out the window … who do you rank higher than Guile? Maybe you haven’t seen the Guile’s I’ve played lately.
I’ve been playing this game as long as you have BTW.
^^
The above post is proof of what we’ve known all along.
Experience isn’t the proof of skill. It’s just proof that you’re still here.
By the way, since I’m from the nationality that originated the term “scrub”, let me help you with the definition.
Scrub - a person who is experienced, but still lacks skill
The fact of the matter is…your experience is not helping you, it’s hurting you. You need to play better competition and enter tournaments. Until you do, stop posting in a thread that you don’t have enough knowledge to post intelligently in.
The mods are watching and they’ll get you like one of those trolls in Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom if you’re not careful. (“You have to finish off a troll with fire.”)
Guile’s sonic boom takes two seconds to charge, not one… :wtf:
His problem is that he still has no offense. He will lose out to the top/high tier characters if they play correct (ex. don’t try to repeatedly jump in at him).
The overhead helps but it only helps once you’ve got them in range for it… And his new flash kicks are ok but if you miss one you are pressed right against your opponent in mid-air and ready to eat a combo to the groin.
Hawk being mid isn’t too much of a strech, I had him just below mid. I just feel like, again, against the top characters he is going to have a hell of a time doing anything. I can see how he would be a terror against some of the cast though, especially ones without a fireball. I have him pegged as a good counter-pick but a bad main.
Honda has a bad matchup against ANYONE with a fireball… So Ryu, DJ, Guile, Sagat, Dhalsim, Ken, Akuma, and Chun Li are all pretty bad matchups for him. That’s 8 out of 16 matchups excluding the mirror match… You expect me to believe he has bad matchups against half the cast and is top or high tier? Admittedly those matchups got better for him in HDR, but they’re still not good by any means.
You say Ken’s “still low”… He was mid in ST, and he got buffs… I don’t see why he would have dropped, unless you’re saying the characters below him in ST (Honda, fei, hawk, gief, cammy, blanka) got so much better in HDR that he got left behind.
I don’t care if you think I sound like a douchebag if you have a problem then report it to a mod otherwise kindly STFU. Where did I say or even imply I was “the master of hd remix discussion” The difference between you and I right now is I’m using well established facts of the game to support my posts while you post random unproven shit with no logic or reason supporting your stance.
HD remix isn’t a completely new game and everything I have posted thus far are facts everyone here knows about vanilla st that carry over into hd remix.
So how exactly am I the one coming off as lacking knowledge when I’m definitively proving everything you post to be false using facts which like I said have been well established for a while. It’s not that I disagree with you it’s just me proving you beyond all doubt that you’re wrong about most of what you posted so it was never a debate to begin with.
Why don’t you rank claw as high as guile? Where’s your matchup evidence that proves or at least suggests guile has a higher ratio of favorable to unfavorable matchups then claw does let alone why walldive not knocking down suddenly drops him below guile?
Why wouldn’t I debate akuma in tiers? he’s a viable playable character just like everyone else so for now and the foreseeable future any matchup or tier list must take him into account whether you like it or not.
If you read my earlier posts lest other posts in this thread you wouldn’t have to ask who I personally rank higher then guile and why but rather you’d tell me exactly why you rank guile as high as you do.
What? Wait…I get it! You’re the first troll to ever appear on Shoryuken.com! Oh wow! What does he win, mods?!
Yep…you’re a troll. You’re not the first…and, sadly, you probably won’t be the last. The really sad part is that trolls don’t make it a point to read the forum rules and then cry about why they get negative repped, infracted, and then banned.
They’re kinda like people who think throws are cheap…and you know what group those people get lumped into.
Anyway, my suggestion to you would be to read that sticky up there at the top of the thread regarding being new to the forum. It’s obvious that you started posting too soon. Give yourself some time to get acclaimated to the forum…specifically reading the posts of people who post claims and intelligently back them up. Come back in about a month or so with an attitude of humility and you’ll be most welcome.
I don’t agree with this 100%. My Honda does fairly well against good Guiles and especially Kens. If anything, I’d say Honda VS Guile is about even and Honda VS Ken is Honda’s slight advantage. Chun Li in the Hyper Fighting era was always an issue for the fat man, maybe even ST, but not so much now in HDR (IMHO).
Wait, exactly how am I troll again? Since we’re using well established facts for discussion, please elaborate on this enigmatic claim against me.
I’m here to discuss HD Remix, and just b/c you don’t agree with MY tier makes yours anymore valid. You keep talking about how the “community” agrees upon this or that but again, that’s not fact, that’s simply popular opinion.
I keep reiterating (and I guess I’ll have to keep repeating myself due to others perhaps suffering from reading comprehension challenges) - it’s simply my own personal $0.02. You can agree, or care to disagree, be my guest!
When I get back in the states, I’d love to play some of you guys just for kicks. I’m not saying I’d win, but quite honestly I’d be very impressed if you guy’s games are as loud and obnoxiously cocky as your lame smacking talking on the internets.
I’m just new posting here, cut the new guy some slack and stop posting on PMS. Thanks in advance.
If anything, the mods should be cracking the whip on others who seem to think it’s “cool” post pretend like they’re thugs, when in reality they’re only downgrading the board with your immature banter. All I see is a bunch of emoticons followed by “YOU GAWDDAMN MORON!” …
You’re posting like a troll. The root of the issue is that you’re new…and, looking at your join date, you obviously didn’t read the sticky at the top because we shouldn’t know you’re here until next month.
It’s not that I don’t like newbies…otherwise the sticky I wrote wouldn’t exist. It’s that you’re giving yourself more credit than you should be, which is why your posts aren’t coming off that well. You haven’t learned how to effectively debate yet. (I’m not that great a Ken player (compared to others here) and I still know that your reasons for putting him as low tier are horrible at best.) That’s why I recommend lurking to newbies. Read posts and learn what to do and what not to do. After a month…you should have the hang of it.
The difference between you and I right now is I’m using well established facts of the game to support my posts while you post random unproven shit with no logic or reason supporting your stance.